Lords Sitting of 8 February 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Beading — Limitation of Actions (5); Settled Land*
(6); Conveyancing and Law of Property *
(7); Solicitors' Remuneration * (8).
Select Committee — Rivers Conservancy and Floods Prevention* (15), nominated.

TUNIS—THE ENFIDA CASE.

  QUESTION.
  EARL DE LA WARRasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the attention of Her Majesty's Government has been called to the recent case at Tunis affecting the right of property of a British subject; and, whether the Correspondence and Papers relating thereto can be laid upon the Table of the House?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, a dispute has arisen between a British subject resident at Tunis and a French Company, with regard to the purchase and right of pre-emption of a very considerable estate called the Enfida. There have been communications between the two Governments, as there were complaints of Consular interference. Both Governments agree that it is a matter in which political influence ought not to be used. At the end of last week the French Government informed mo that they had sent orders to their Representative at Tunis not to intervene. I had already anticipated this stop by directing our Consul General not to take any step without orders from home. As both Governments are animated by a conciliatory spirit, and both are agreed as to the general principle on which the matter should be treated, there ought to be no difficulty as to their common co-operation regarding it. Communications were still going on.

SOUTH AFRICA — THE TRANSVAAL (MILITARY OPERATIONS)—THE TELEGRAMS.

  QUESTIONS.
  EARL CADOGANasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government had that day received any additional news from the Transvaal?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The following telegram has been received to-day:—
  "From the General Officer Commanding Natal and Transvaal to the Secretary of State for War—
  "February 7.
  "All quiet in front. Post between hero and Newcastle stopped to-day by strong Boer patrol. Reinforcements marching up, but weather very unfavourable. Death since last return—58th Regiment, T. Fitz Harris."
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies,

  331
  Whether he had received any further information, confirmatory or otherwise, on the subject of the following telegram from Sir Hercules Robinson, which appeared in The Times of that morning:—
  "Our loss heavy, in consequence of treacherous conduct of Boors, who, after hoisting the white hag, fired upon our men on two occasions when they left cover. Colonel Gildea and orderly, both healing white flags, were fired upon when within 60 yards of laager; both escaped. This is the third time that treacherous use has been made of white flag."
  He wished to know whether it was true?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: There have been statements in the newspapers to the effect mentioned in the telegram read by the noble Earl; but I have not the means of knowing precisely what has occurred, and until I am aware exactly of what has taken place I should not like to state the course which we should feel it our duty to pursue. Such statements, however, have reached Her Majesty's Government.

  SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL—INSURRECTION OF THE BOERS—THE MURDER OF CAPTAIN ELLIOT.

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    THE EARL OF ANNESLEYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, What steps Her Majesty's Government intend to take in consequence of the wanton and cowardly murder of Captain Elliot, a British officer, by a party of Boers, he being at the time unarmed and a prisoner of war on parole? He would not go into the details of the affair, as they had been already related by Captain Lambart, the surviving officer, in a letter which had been published in the newspapers. That letter, wherever the English language was spoken, would be read with a feeling of horror and of pity for the unfortunate officer; and in his (the Earl of Annesley's) opinion, there could be but one answer to the conduct of the perpetrators of the murder—namely, condign punishment. If, at the end of the war, it was found impossible to punish the perpetrators, the people of this country would not be satisfied unless a heavy and adequate indemnity were demanded of the Boers of the Transvaal. It was for the purpose of eliciting the opinion of Her Majesty's Government on the subject that he had
    332
    put the Question on the Paper. He would ask a similar Question with reference to some statements which had appeared in the morning papers as to other alleged atrocities by the Boors. According to the statements, not only had outrage been committed, but an insult had intentionally been put upon this country and our gallant soldiers, for it appeared in a letter from one of the survivors of the detachment overpowered on the first occasion in this contest, that they were ordered by the Commandant to Heidelberg; and that in the course of the journey they were driven like cattle, the Boers having cracked their whips over the heads of the British soldiers. He trusted Her Majesty's Government would issue stringent orders to the officers commanding our troops in South Africa to take whatever notice they thought desirable with regard to such insults and outrages.
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, with regard to the Question of which the noble Earl gave Notice, I need hardly say that the facts as reported would indicate that a brutal and cowardly murder was committed; but, in the present state of affairs, I am not aware that we have any power to take any steps in addition to those taken some time since by Sir George Colley, which have been already made known in a communication through the newspapers, it being dated as far back as the 28th of January. In it Sir George Colley states that he sent a copy of Captain Lambart's statement as to the alleged murder of Captain Elliot to Joubert, the Commander of the Boers, and that the latter expressed horror of the act, and threatened punishment on the offenders. Intelligence of the result has not yet been received. I am sorry to say that we are not in a position to take any further steps; but I think that the fact that the Boer Commander has expressed his horror at the act is, for the present, a satisfactory indication that they are prepared to do what every just and reasonable person would expect. With regard to the other acts referred to by the noble Earl, I have no information except that of which he himself is in possession. Your Lordships must be aware that when a war breaks out, and especially a war of this kind, many acts are, unfortunately, often

    333
    committed which we most deeply deplore; and I am afraid that this war is not going to prove an exception to the general rule. The steps that we are taking to defend ourselves and assert the Queen's authority are certainly the only steps that are open to us to dispense punishment or exact redress for any acts that may be complained of. I rather deprecate our accepting as correct, before they are sifted, all those statements which we receive, because, in the excitement which prevails, persons of the most perfect fairness and sincerity are apt to exaggerate somewhat what has really occurred. I am not saying that any of those particular facts which have been recently reported are untrue; but, as a general principle, I think it would be well we should exercise a general caution, and that we should have before us the most authentic information before we pass final judgment on what has taken place. Our desire is, as has already been stated in Parliament, that in carrying on this war our troops should observe the rules of civilized warfare, and we have the right to expect that our opponents will do the same. Those rules are well known, and I trust the Boers will observe them; but, undoubtedly, if those rules are transgressed and crimes committed which are inexcusable, and for which we can bring the perpetrators to justice, Her Majesty's Government will not be backward in doing so.

  LIMITATION OF ACTIONS BILL [H.L.]
  (The Earl Cairns.)
  LIMITATION OF ACTIONS BILL [H.L.]

    (NO. 5.) SECOND READING.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
    EARL CAIRNS,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he had a few words to say in respect of it and of the Settled Land Bill, the Conveyancing and Law of Property Bill, and the Solicitors' Remuneration Bill, which also stood on the Paper in his name for second reading that evening. When introducing those four Bills in the early part of last year he explained very fully their various provisions; but he might, however, again state that the Bill under notice proposed to reduce the time within which actions might be brought on ordinary civil contract debts from six
    334
    years to three, and on speciality debts from 12 years to 20. They had now been 12 months before the public; they had been very much discussed; and he thought he was not wrong in saying that, with only one exception, that of the Settled Land Bill, their provisions had met with anything but disapproval. Regarding the Settled Land Bill, he knew there were many persons who thought legislation on the subject ought to be of a more extended and wider character than that proposed by the Bill. But those who took that view admitted, he thought, that so far as the Bill went it had their approval, and that it would be a great improvement on the present law. On the other hand, there was nothing whatever in the Bill which would prevent anyone who thought further legislation desirable from proposing such legislation; and he was satisfied that it would be impossible to exaggerate the benefit which would arise from these Bills if they became law in the present Session. Now, he did not ask Her Majesty's Government to displace any of their own measures in favour of his; but he did ask them, if their Lordships should think it right to pass them, to give their assistance in passing those Bills through the other House, and he made that appeal more hopefully because his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack had expressed his approval of those Bills. He would conclude by moving the second reading.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The. Earl Cairns.)
    THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that, in his opinion, the Limitation of Actions Bill and the Solicitors' Remuneration Bill stood on a different footing from the two other Bills of his noble and learned Friend; and he had no reason to suppose that the Government would be unwilling to lend their assistance in passing them. But the provisions of his noble and learned Friend's other two Bills, the Settled Land Bill and the Conveyancing and Law of Property Bill, might require to be materially modified if any comprehensive measures dealing with the subject of land transfer and the modification of the Law of Settlement were brought under the notice of Parliament. Those subjects were considered to need careful consideration by Her Majesty's Government, and they

    335
    had hoped to be able to give them that consideration during the last Recess; but owing to circumstances which their Lordships were aware of—Irish questions having to be dealt with—Her Majesty's Government were not now hopeful that, in the present Session, they would be able to bring in Bills relating to the transfer of land, or to settled estates in England. His noble and learned Friend had alluded to the opinion he (the Lord Chancellor) had expressed on these Bills. That opinion was expressed before he was a Member of Her Majesty's Government; but it had undergone no change. He thought that if the general law as to real property wore to remain, in other respects, substantially as it was, those Bills would introduce most useful and important improvements. On the other hand, he was not prepared to say that if that law were to be materially altered, the provisions of those Bills must not undergo modification. When his noble and learned Friend introduced his Settled Land Bill, he (the Lord Chancellor) expressed his opinion that the provisions which his noble and learned Friend limited to future settlements ought to be extended to existing settlements, without the checks, as to existing settlements, which were now in the Bill; and if the Government could be induced to give their assistance to passing that Bill, he thought it could only be on such a change being made. In making those remarks, he simply expressed his own views, not being authorized to announce that the Government would depart from the position which they took up last Session in respect of those Bills, and which at that time he explained to their Lordships' House.
    THE EARL OF BELMOREintimated that, in Committee on the Settled Land Bill, he would move an Amendment for the purpose of extending the proposed limit—21 years—of leasing powers.
    On Question? Resolved in the Affirmative.
    Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
    Then, SETTLED LAND BILL [H.L.], CONVEYANCING AND LAW OF PROPERTY BILL [H.L.], and SOLICITORS' REMUNERATION BILL [H.L.], severally read 2a (ac-
    336
    cording to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
    House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.