Lords Sitting of 7 February 1881

MINUTES.
— SELECT COMMITTEE — Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, appointed and nominated; Standing Orders Committee, appointed and nominated; Committee of Selection, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS — First Reading — Alkali, &c. Works Regulation* (29).
Referred to Select Committee — Rivers Conservancy and Floods Prevention (15).

AFRICA (WEST COAST)—WAR WITH ASHANTEE.—QUESTION.
LORD BRABOURNE: I wish to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies a Question of which I have given him private Notice—namely, Whether he has any further information to give than that contained in this morning's papers with reference to the threatened War with Ashantee?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY,in reply, said, it would probably be satisfactory to his noble Friend (Lord Bra-bourne) if he read a telegram which had been received at the Colonial Office from the Lieutenant Governor of the Gold Coast. It was as follows:—
"Telegram from Lieutenant Governor Griffith to the Earl of Kimberley, dated Gold Coast, January 24, 1881.
(Received Colonial Office 3 A.M., February 5, 1881.)
"It is with the deepest regret I have to state to your Lordship my belief that the Ashantees intend to force another war upon the Gold Coast Colony, and that they may commence hostilities at any moment. On the 18th of January an Ashantee Prince, who had escaped from Coomassie, entreated British protection; next day a messenger from the King of Ashantee, bearing his gold axe, and accompanied by ambassadors, one being Saibee Enquie, who signed the treaty of peace with Sir Garnet Wolseley at Fomunnah, requested an audience, when they demanded that the refugee should be given up to them. I declined, whereupon Enquie, supported by the others, stated that if I did not surrender the man the King of Ashantee would attack Assim. I called Enquie's attention to the Treaty, Articles I. and III., and warned him that the consequences of breaking them would be very serious; the messenger and suite then left, but subsequently I instructed them to remain at Cape Coast until to-day, considering it best to put my reply to the King's demand in writing.
"The refusal of a demand from Ashantee, accompanied by the gold axe, means war on the part of the Ashantees, that they will cut their way to the accomplishment of their purpose. The gold axe was sent down in 1873, and war followed. All chiefs, public officers, and respectable merchants warned mo to prepare for war with the Ashantees, and that it is imminent. I am very loth to believe it, but, nevertheless, am taking every available measure and precaution in my power for the protection of the Colony. I shall carefully avoid provoking hostilities and shall act strictly on the defensive."
He might add that no information had reached Her Majesty's Government previously to the receipt of that telegram of the probability of a war with Ashantee. They had heard vague rumours of possible misunderstandings; but nothing

235
whatever indicating that anything serious was likely to happen. The Lieutenant Governor stated that he had available 1,000 men, composed partly of West Indian troops and partly of Native Houssa police, and Her Majesty's Government had ordered reinforcements to the number of 400 West Indian troops to proceed to the Gold Coast to assist the garrison.

RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL [H.L.]
(The Lord President.)
RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL [H.L.]

  (NO. 15.) COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read, and discharged.
  Moved, "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee."—(The Lord President.)
  LORD INCHIQUINhoped that the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) would insert a provision to extend the Bill to Ireland, and asked him whether he would do so?
  EARL SPENCER,in reply, said, he regretted that his noble Friend (Lord Inchiquin) had not given him a longer Notice of his Question, and was afraid that he was not able to give him a satisfactory answer. From what he knew of the matter he was not disposed to agree in the view of his noble Friend that the Bill should be extended to Ireland. In Ireland there were a great number of Acts bearing on the question, and the interests involved in it were even vaster than those which existed in England; but there was now sitting a Royal Commission on the navigation of rivers in Ireland, and the Government expected a very valuable Report from that Commission. He could not help thinking, therefore, that it would be better to deal with the case of the Irish rivers in a separate Bill.
  On Question? agreed to.
  And, on February 8, the Lords following-were named of the Committee:

  Ld. President.

  E. Camperdown.

  D. Somerset.

  L. Ashford.

  D. Bedford.

  L. Monson.

  D, Marlborough.

  L. Meldrum.

  E. Derby.

  L. Penrhyn.

  E. Sandwich.

  L. Norton.

  E. Jersey.

  And, on February 10, The Marquess of Lans-downe and The Earl Beauchamp added.

CENTRAL ASIA — CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE AMEER OF CABUL.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, in pursuance of a Notice which I have given to the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville), I wish to ask, Whether Her Majesty's Government have any objection to produce the documents which, to the number of 20, I have enumerated on the Notice Paper, together with any other Papers not yet published, relative to the proceedings of the Russian authorities at Cabul? I am the more anxious for the production of those documents in consequence of some remarks made by the noble Duke the Lord Privy Seal (the Duke of Argyll) last month, when alluding to the policies pursued in Afghanistan by the late and the present Governments. I have no reason whatever to suppose that Her Majesty's Government will make any objection to the production of those Papers; but I think it would be only respectful to the House if I briefly state my reasons for asking that they should be laid on the Table, especially after the remarks of the noble Duke. I have rather gathered from the remarks of the noble Duke that Her Majesty's Government attach no great importance to these documents; but your Lordships will remember that the late Government of India did attach considerable importance to them, and that, in point of fact, they constituted a material part of the evidence upon which, in accordance with the advice most earnestly given to that Government by Frontier and other high authorities throughout India, they, after lengthened and deliberate consideration, came to the unanimous conclusion that British military control over South-Western Afghanistan ought on no account whatever to be either abandoned or relaxed. That conclusion has been set aside by Her Majesty's present Ministers. The noble Duke has told your Lordships that it is his most confident opinion that these Papers only prove that the late Ameer of Cabul did not coquette with Russia until he had been violently threatened by the Government of India under the late Administration. This is an opinion the discussion of which must be very lengthened and minute, and, therefore, at

  237
  present, I am not going to discuss it; but, be that opinion just or the reverse, it is, in either case, beside the practical question of the relations between the Ameer and Russia, that was forced upon the attention of the late Government of India by the discovery of these Papers, and which again has been raised in a very practical form by the recent decision of the present Government with regard to Candahar. The question is not whether the Ameer of Cabul coquetted with Russia, or why he did so; but what are the most effectual guarantees which can be taken, and ought to be taken, in order to safeguard Her Majesty's Indian Empire against the very serious dangers which have undoubtedly been revealed by the discovery of the Papers in question? If the question itself is to be discussed and decided in your Lordships' House at any time, I hardly see how we can come to a decision before these Papers are laid on the Table. I wish to point out that they are not Papers which have been received in confidence from any foreign Government. They are Papers which, from their nature, must be known, prospectively and retrospectively, to the only other European Government concerned. These Papers were forwarded by the late Government of India to England with a view to affording information to Parliament at the proper time; but Her Majesty's late Government thought that, while diplomatic questions and military questions were still pending, the time for the issue of those documents had not arrived. The late Government of India concurred in that view; but we acquiesced in the postponement of their production in the belief that the steps taken on our judgment, after a full and careful study of those Papers, would not be suddenly swept away and put aside by Her Majesty's Government. The situation is now, however, entirely different, and the excuse I referred to cannot be urged now. The war in Afghanistan has been brought to a conclusion, and, so far as we are aware, there are no diplomatic questions pending, and there is no military operation on foot in Afghanistan; while, in the meantime, the whole action taken by the late Government of India with reference to these Papers has been publicly repudiated, and its propriety has been impugned by those upon whom its continuance depends. Therefore I think,
  238
  on behalf of the late Government of India and on behalf of all of my Colleagues in the late Government, I may fairly ask that no portion of the evidence on which our action was taken should be withheld from the knowledge of your Lordships, when the opinion of your Lordships is asked on the reversal of our policy; and in that belief I feel quite certain that I can confidently rely on the personal sympathy, and also, I hope, upon the official concurrence of the noble Earl to whom I address my Question.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the Papers referred to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Lytton) in his Question were found at Cabul during our occupation of that city. The discovery was very loudly announced both in India and in this country, and great importance was attached in speeches and in a portion of the public Press to these despatches. My noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal (the Duke of Argyll), very naturally at the time, asked in this House whether the Government had any objection to produce them, and that the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cran-brook) positively refused, and pointed out that the Government had taken particular care not to allude to them in debate, in order to avoid the necessity of producing them. On the 10th of January this year, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Lytton) called the attention of the House to the affairs of India, and three or four days before he gave me Notice that he would ask me to produce these Papers, and that Notice rather embarrassed my noble Friend (the Marquess of Hartington) and myself. We saw no objection to the production of these Papers; but the late Government must have had some good reason for keeping them secret, although we did not know what it was, and we were not aware of anything having occurred since the refusal which made it right to do that now which would have been wrong at the previous time. We were relieved, however, of any difficulty by the noble Earl (the Earl of Lytton) writing to me that he withdrew his Notice. In the able speech which he made at the time, while specifying only the despatches which had been produced, he alluded to the communications which had passed during three years between the Russian authorities and the Ameer

  239
  of Cabul. The noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), in reply, made a more particular allusion to the despatches which had not been produced, and stated his opinion of them; but I am not aware that he said they were of no importance. The noble Viscount (Viscount Cranbrook) followed, and stated that he had no objection to their now being produced; and, under these circumstances, we have no objection whatever to their production. In August, 1879, the noble Earl (the Earl of Lytton), in Council, recommended to the Home Government to communicate with the Russian Government on the subject of the communications with the Ameer. I believe that was not done by them; but last summer I had an opportunity of doing so. There were reports that Ayoub Khan had Russian officers in the army which had defeated the British force. This accusation was denied by the Russian Government, and I am bound to say that the denial was confirmed by the concurrent information which was received from various quarters; but in alluding to these reports, I said to the Russian Ambassador that my noble Friend the Secretary of State for India had been reminded by them of the communications which had taken place between the Russian authorities in Central Asia, and which had been found at Cabul at the time of the British occupation. Prince Lobanoff expressed a strong wish to see these Papers; and I gave him copies of the most important letters between General Kauffmann, General Stolitieff, and Shero Ali and his Ministers. In October Prince Lobanoff spoke to me again on the subject, and informed me that General Kauff-mann had had strict orders given to him to abstain from any interference in Afghan affairs, and to avoid any action which could give ground for objection on the part of the British authorities. He had been directed to refrain from any communication even of a merely complimentary character with Abdurrahman, and he had been called upon to forward to the Home Government at St. Petersburg duplicates of all the letters which had been addressed by him formerly to the Ameer, to Shere Ali, and his Ministers. Last month Prince Lobanoff reminded me of what he had told me in October as to the instructions sent to General Kauffmann, and that duplicates of all Correspondence with the Russian
  240
  authorities had been sent to St. Petersburg, and he brought with him, in a portfolio, all these Papers. His Excellency remarked that on comparing them with the translations which I had handed to him some months ago, he found that the latter were incorrect in places, and required revision; that in one letter, of which two versions were given, a whole sentence seemed to have been added in one version which did not exist in the other, or in the original; and that some confusion appeared to have been made between the words "friendship" and "alliance," the latter expression having been substituted in several places for the former. His Excellency then remarked that a perusal of the Correspondence showed that nothing had been written which was not simply of a complimentary character, and known and not objected to by the Indian Government until 1878, when the Russian Government believed a war with England to be imminent. I said that there were some very disagreeable passages in the letters written subsequently to the Treaty of Berlin. Prince Lobanoff replied that at the time when the letters I referred to had been written the news of the signature of the Treaty had not reached General Stolitieff. As soon as the Treaty had been signed, orders had been sent to General Kauffmann to abstain from any proceedings of a nature unfriendly to England. It had been impossible to refuse to receive Shere Ali, and he had been shown the hospitality which was proper under the circumstances; but he had not been allowed to go to St. Petersburg as he wished. On the part of Her Majesty's Government, I must again say that there is no objection to lay the Papers asked for on the Table.
  THE EARL OF LYTTON: I need hardly say that I do not rise to reply to the observations made by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville); but I think that it will be convenient to the House that I should give Notice of my intention to take an early opportunity of submitting a Resolution to your Lordships upon the subject of the contemplated evacuation of Candahar.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, I desire simply to say that the noble Earl (the Earl of Lytton), in the observations he has made to the House in reference to this matter, has given a

  241
  somewhat erroneous account of the use made by myself of these Papers. He has, in fact, given two accounts; one that is tolerably correct, and the other somewhat, if not altogether, inaccurate. The noble Earl stated that I referred to the Papers for the purpose of proving that Shere Ali had not been in any serious communication with Russia until the noble Earl had made threats of a very serious kind towards him, and that is the use I did make of the Papers. The other use attributed to me, and which is incorrect, is that I did not attach any very serious importance to them. That I never said, and the noble Earl is quite right in challenging the Government to produce those Papers, if he considers them of use in any argument he may wish to address to the House in defence of the Government of India over which he presided. But, my Lords, I would point out to the House that as to the Papers now moved for, and which I challenged the late Government to produce, I did not see why they should be withheld, nor do I see why they should be now; but I would wish your Lordships to bear in mind that they have no possible bearing upon the question of Shore Ali's conduct before the threats of the noble Earl, because the first is dated June 14, 1878, 14 months after the noble Earl had suspended friendly relations with the Ameer. With regard to the motives which actuated the late Government in withholding the Papers when I challenged them to produce them, I have no authentic information. As my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville) has stated, in assenting to the Question of the noble Earl for their production, they do not bear much on the conduct of Shere Ali; but they do on the conduct of Russia and her commanders in Central Asia. I think myself that the production of those Papers will have a very injurious effect on the public mind, and especially as to the conduct of Russia in that particular; and I desire to point out to this House, and through your Lordships to the country at large, the blanks and vacancies which they leave in regard to the history of our relations with Russia. Those blanks will not be supplied if the Papers are produced; but I think they should not be omitted, while it is the privilege of the Members of Her Majesty's Opposition to ask Questions of the Govern-
  242
  ment of the day. By Parliamentary usage the Government have no similar privilege of asking Questions of Her Majesty's Opposition; but if I had had that privilege, I should have liked to have moved for the production of some documents which the noble Earl had in his possession, and which, so far as I know, he has never produced to Parliament, and which have never been moved for. For instance, in October, 1876, not many months after the noble Earl went out to India, he sent to our Native Agent at the Court of Cabul to come down and explain certain matters in connection with Shere Ali's conduct, and in obedience to these orders our Native Agent did see the noble Earl. Now, that was a very remarkable interview with our Native Agent. It took place in October, 1876. And what do I find the noble Earl saying with regard to Russia?—
  "If the Ameer does not desire to come to a speedy understanding with us, Russia does, and she desires it at his expense."—[Afghanistan (No. 1.), 1878.]
  My Lords, I want to know upon what grounds the noble Earl made that assertion. Has he any documents to produce? I presume that he would have some document which would give evidence of Russia's desiring to come to an understanding with England for the extinction of the Ameer. For a Viceroy of India to be speaking thus solemnly to our Native Agent, he must have had some document, some kind of evidence of what he was asserting; but as yet none has appeared. At least, I can find no such document, nor one which will at all bear out the statement, or anything of the kind. But there is a most extraordinary paragraph in the celebrated despatch of the noble Earl, dated the 10th of May, wherein, for the first time, he seems to have given an account of his whole conduct towards Russia and towards the Ameer. Your Lordships will agree with me, I think, when I say that the noble Earl has therein laid down a very extraordinary programme. I give it from memory, as I have not the despatch itself with me; but in it the noble Earl states that he has come out to India after a personal interview, not only with the Prime Minister—which, to say the least, I thought a curious way of expressing it—but also with the Ambassador of Russia. It therefore appears that the

  243
  noble Earl was in communication with the Russian Ambassador before he went out to India. When, therefore, I read this account of Russia's desiring to come to an understanding with England, I thought that the noble Earl had been urging on the Russian Minister, in his personal interview to which he had referred, his desire to come to some understanding; and the noble Earl distinctly intimated to the poor unfortunate Shere Ali that no previous Treaty or promise with former Viceroys or with England would be any impediment to Russia wiping out the Afghan Kingdom. I wish to know if the noble Earl has any Papers to produce which will justify that assertion. And another question I should be glad to ask if I could, but I have no right to do so; and, consequently, it is but right that I should point out how vacancies and blanks occur in those Papers, and in the Correspondence and communications to Russia, blanks which those Papers will leave unfilled, whether, in the interview with our Native Agent—in which he made the announcement that Russia was on such a good understanding with us, he sent back to the Ameer to say he (the noble Earl) had ordered a bridge of boats to be constructed across the Indus, and that he was collecting large quantities of stores at Kohat, upon the Afghan Frontier—the North-Western Frontier of India; where also, at the very time, at Rawul Pindee, a very considerable army was being concentrated. Now, my Lords, when all this was taking place, news reached England to that effect; and I ventured to ask the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) who was then Secretary of State for India, whether it was true, and whether the Viceroy was not preparing some great military expedition either against the Kingdom of Afghanistan, or against some portion of Central Asia. This was the rumour that was circulated at the time when this news arrived. The noble Marquess informed me that he had not heard of anything that was going on, and that he knew nothing of the rumour to which I referred. Well, my Lords, that rumour was perfectly true. The noble Marquess had not heard of it; but I had, and I heard it from officers who had been eye-witnesses of the concentration of troops which was going
  244
  on, and of large stores that were being collected there. They believed this, and we have it that as early as October, 1876, the noble Earl had in his mind the preparation of an army for the invasion of Afghanistan or Central Asia. All this was then not a pure myth. I should like to ask the noble Earl, if anything of thi3 kind was going on; but whether it was or not, it is quite certain that there was a widely-spread belief in England, and a widely-spread belief also in Russia, that in 1876, nearly two years before the Mission of Russia, the noble Earl had had it in his mind to concentrate a large army to counteract what he said were Russian intrigues. If all this was not true, an opinion was widely spread in England that it was; and all this justified Russia in her suspicions, and it justified her in taking precautions against us, just as much as we were justified in taking precautions against any intrigues of General Kauffmann. I would also remind this House that in October, 1876, when those rumours were being spread, the Government which the noble Earl represented was in close communication with the Russian Government. They were in daily communication with the Russian Government, for the purpose of imposing upon Turkey the will of Europe in regard to her European Provinces. I wish to point out, further, that it is abundantly proved by those Papers that up to 1878, when Russia was practically on the point of war with England, and when she had, in effect, resolved to take hostile measures against England at Cabul, there is no proof that the Ameer was hostile to England, owing to any unfriendly influence of Russia previous to the arrival of the noble Earl in India.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that the course that had been pursued in India by the late Government was in entire accordance with all our traditional policy pursued by the first Earl of Minto, by Mountstuart Elphinstone, and by Sir John Malcolm in India; but the present Government, by attempting continually to disavow the policy of the late Government, were doing all they could to unsettle the minds of the Natives; and the sooner they desisted from their late tactics, the sooner would peace and order be restored in every part of Her Majesty's Dominions.

  SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL—INSURRECTION OF THE BOERS—PROCLAMATION OF THE DUTCH TRIUMVIRATE—QUESTION.
  LORD BRABOURNEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he has any official knowledge of a Proclamation recently published by the Dutch Triumvirate in the Transvaal, purporting to give an historical retrospect of events connected with the annexation of the Transvaal, and previous thereto, and justifying the rising of the Boers against Her Majesty's authority; whether it is true that such Proclamation has been communicated to other European Powers; and, whether he will be able to lay an authentic copy of the same upon the Table of the House?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY,in reply, said, he had received from the Governor of the Cape, by the last mail, what purported to be an authentic copy of the document referred to in his noble Friend's Question. He had no knowledge that the Proclamation had been communicated to the other European Powers, and he had no objection to lay on the Table the copy received at the Colonial Office. He would, at the same time, lay on the Table a copy of a subsequent Proclamation which had been also received.
  LORD BRABOURNEsaid, he proposed shortly to call attention to the Transvaal, with the view of giving an opportunity for an authoritative statement with regard to those events immediately preceding the annexation.

  ALKALI, &c. WORKS REGULATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate the Alkali Acts, 1863 and 1874, and to make further provision for regulating Alkali and other works in which noxious or offensive gases are evolved—Was presented by The Lord MELDRUM; read la. (No. 29.)

  OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.
  Select Committee appointed: The Lords following were named of the Committee:

  Ld. Chancellor.

  D. Richmond.

  Ld. President.

  D. Saint Albans.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  M. Lansdowne.

  M. Salisbury.

  E. Redesdale.

  M. Bath.

  E. Lathom.

  M. Hertford.

  V. Hawarden.

  Ld. Steward.

  V. Hardinge.

  E. Devon.

  V. Eversley.

  E. Doncaster.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  E. Tankerville.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Monson.

  E. Bradford.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Granville.

  L. Aveland.

  E. Kimberley.

  STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
  Appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  D. Somerset.

  V. Hardinge.

  M. Winchester.

  V. Eversley.

  M. Lansdowne.

  V. Halifax.

  M. Bath.

  L. Saye and Sele.

  M. Hertford.

  L. Balfour of Burleigh.

  Ld. Steward.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  E. Devon.

  L. Boyle.

  E. Airlie.

  L. Monson.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Digby.

  E. Cadogan.

  L. Carrington.

  E. Belmore.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Chichester.

  L. Silchester.

  E. Powis.

  L. De Tabley.

  E. Verulam.

  L. Sudeley.

  E. Morley.

  L. Belper.

  E. Stradbroke.

  L. Ebury.

  E. Amherst.

  L. Egerton.

  E. Lathom.

  L. Hartismere.

  V. Hawarden.

  L. Penrhyn.

  V. Hutchinson.

  L. Wolverton.

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  All Petitions relating to Standing Orders which shall he presented during the present Session referred to the Standing Orders Committee unless otherwise ordered.

  COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.

  The Lords following; viz.,

  M. Lansdowne.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  E. Lathom.

  L. Boyle.

  were appointed, with the Chairman of Committees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.