Lords Sitting of 24 August 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Highways and Locomotives (Amendment) Act, 1878, Amendment * (232); Army Acts Consolidation *.
Second Reading—Irish Church Act Amendment (227).
Committee—Report—Regulation of the Forces (221); India Office Auditor (Superannuation) * (222); Newspapers (Law of Libel) (223); Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Wales) (224).
Third Reading—Expiring Laws Continuance *, and passed.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS—FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.

  QUESTIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government will take steps during the Recess to prevent the further spread of foot-and-mouth-disease?
  LORD EMLYalso inquired whether precautions would be taken to prevent the spread of the disease to Ireland?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in reply, said, that no Notice having been given of these Questions, he was imperfectly prepared to answer them. He knew little or nothing as to whether any precautions had been taken, or whether
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  they were proposed to be taken by the Department presided over by his noble Friend who was absent (Earl Spencer), to prevent the spread of the disease during the Recess. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley of Alderley) had probably been led to put his Question in consequence of an erroneous statement getting abroad that there was no foot-and-mouth disease in England. Unfortunately that statement was inaccurate, there having been 40 cases in one county, and 35 in another. He believed there was no foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland. There was no reason to doubt that his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council would take every measure possible to prevent the spread of the disease. His noble Friend (Lord Emly) might feel assured that the Department would take every precaution to prevent the disease reaching Ireland.

REGULATION OF THE FORCES BILL.
(The Earl of Morley.)
REGULATION OF THE FORCES BILL.

  (NO. 221.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  LORD STRATHNAIRN LORD STRATHNAIRN, said, he had had the honour to ask, during the Session, their Lordships' attention to the leading failures, and the great crimes of Short Service and its adjuncts, the First-class Army Reserve, brigade depôts, competitive examination for first commissions, and fraudulent enlistments. He should be very brief on that occasion, for the cases were clear and had been much discussed. With regard to the Reserve, the universal military and civil opinion was that its fundamental principle, and sine quâ non, civil employment, was a false one. It was intended to be a great military economy, and, like the Prussian Short Service Reserve, to reinforce our Army in war. But it broke down in both objects, on account of the worthlessnees of civil employment. The unfortunate taxpayers complained that instead of 2d., which the Government promised the country should be the daily pay of a well-drilled Reserve, they had now to pay three times as much for a Reserve without any drill at all, being nearly half the pay of the Regular Army, for their protection in a national emergency. Such were the exigencies of civil employment that when the Reserve were called to arms for the Russian emergency, the lamen-

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  tations of their distressed families were so just and universal that Her Majesty's Government very properly maintained them, at a great expense to the country, which would have been a permanent expense if the Reserve had joined the Army in the field against Russia. This call to arms of the Reserve, and a subsequent debate in the House of Lords, brought to light the fatal shortcomings of civil employment. The Government, to obviate them, declared in Parliament that the Reserve could only be called out for service in a foreign war. The Reserve, therefore, did not reinforce the Army in South Africa when in their greatest want of mature soldiers, as shown by official despatches; and in their place the Government was compelled to send to South Africa, 3,000 miles off, 1,000 picked Marines, when their services might at any moment have been required in the East. But the worst remained to be told. The alarming fact then became evident that when the Reserves were disembarked— for example, in Turkey—the Reserve, as a system, ceased to exist at home; for no civil employer would think of employing a Reserve man who had his foot in the stirrup to start for Turkey to fill up the casualties of war. Then came the brigade depôts, which were disapproved by the Commander in Chief and Lord Airey's Committee. The new territorial regiment system was on the same principle. All regiments above the 25th were linked in two battalions, while all regiments from the 25th downwards had two battalions. The system was that one battalion on reduced strength was to remain at home and supply its double, or linked battalion, with recruits. This system worked in peace; but when any emergency or war called from home the battalion the system went to pieces. It was a public breakdown. All the world saw the two battalions of the 24th fighting side by side in Zululand, when one battalion ought to have been in England supplying its other battalion with recruits. And so on in endless confusion. For the same reason a just "roster" for foreign service, the best guarantee for officers' and soldiers' contentment, was upset. The last adjunct was competitive examination. On this subject, several years ago, he made a Motion respecting competitive examinations for first commissions, from which he referred to a few extracts. One-half the educa-
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  tion— the better half—was civil, of which a part was immoral and debasing literature, in the style of Chaucer and French novels, which usurped the time and intelligence of the future young officer, vitiating and diverting his taste from an ambition for distinction in the Service of his Sovereign and country. For the good of his country, the Army, and himself the time so spent should have been devoted to the study of the first principles of the art of war. They had paid for this perversion of military education by defeats and humiliations in the operations of war, arising from the neglect of the education which made the successful leader, and the cultivation of another which developed the tendencies of the debauchee. There existed in the Army an extensive, dangerous, systematic, and unpunished crime, one of many results of the short-service system—fraudulent enlistment; recruits swore that they had attained 18 years of age, when, in reality, they were under that age. That fraudulent enlistments were extensive was proved by competent military statisticians, who computed their number at one-third, if not more, of the Army. That fraudulent enlistments were dangerous was proved by the history of all wars, backed by the best medical authorities, which showed that the physical power of under-age soldiers, with the heavy weight of the knapsack, arms, and ammunition, & c, about 60 lbs. altogether, must collapse in the trials and hardships of war, and with it the moral power—their courage. That this crime was systematic appeared from a statement made by the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for War in debate, who said that it was a great misfortune, but that they—the War Department— had not been able to find a remedy for it. And that this offence, so ruinous to our military reputation, and to our influence in diplomatic negotiations for British rights, and to our success in war, was unpunished was shown by a Return which he obtained from the War Department, and laid on their Lordships' Table on the 6th of February, 1880, stating that not a man had been punished for this offence. If he could have foreseen that fraudulent enlistments, combined with our too youthful regulation recruiting age of 18, were to constitute the greater portion of our Army in Zulu-land and the Transvaal, his despair would have been as unmitigated as that

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  of the inhabitants of Dependencies who had witnessed disaster caused by these immature soldiers, and the mistaken military education of the officers, which neglected the study of the first and indispensable principles of the art of war —reconnoitering, outpost duty, defence of a camp, never to retire except by alternate bodies, and equally important etceteras, the omission of which had cost so many armies their reputation, and the cause which they defended.
  Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.

NEWSPAPERS (LAW OF LIBEL) BILL.
(The Lord Waveney.)
NEWSPAPERS (LAW OF LIBEL) BILL.

  (NO. 223.) COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(The Lord Waveney.)
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, he had to complain of the unreasonable course that had been taken in pushing the Bill through the House without giving proper time for its consideration by their Lordships. He must appeal to those who had the conduct of it to postpone it until next Session, so as to afford their Lordships time to consider what Amendments might be made in it. For his own part, he had had no time to prepare Amendments to certain of its provisions which he considered very objectionable. As an instance of the loose manner in which it had been passed in "another place," he might mention that the Bill required the registration of newspapers to be effected on or before the 31st of July, 1881; but that date had elapsed, so that here was a Bill requiring a thing to be done before it itself had become law. Again, the Bill required an apology or an explanation of a libel within two days after its publication in the columns of the same paper in which it originally appeared. He did not see how that could work in the case of weekly newspapers. If the Bill should be passed in its present shape, great difficulties would arise in the administration of the law on the subject. He submitted that the Government should interfere with the progress of the Bill, and that time should be given for allowing Amendments to be made in the Bill upon the points he had referred to.
  LORD WAVENEYtrusted their Lordships would not carry their opposition to the measure any furthur, and that it would be allowed to pass through Committee, seeing that it was important it should become law this Session.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, it was only that morning that their Lordships had seen that important and complicated measure, which was in itself most incomplete, and must be amended with regard to some of the clauses, as they were out of date. Owing to its recent delivery, their Lordships had had no opportunity of putting down Amendments.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNprotested against proceeding with the Bill in so hasty a manner. He also thought they ought to have more time for the consideration and discussion of so important a measure.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he wished to point out that the Law Officers of the late Government had not, as had been asserted, approved of the Bill. He also contended that more time ought to be given for the consideration of the Bill before passing it into law. He, therefore, trusted that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill would not further proceed with it that Session. He did not object to the principle of the Bill as far as it went. Although the public were safe against libels by respectable newspapers, it was necessary to be able to exercise the law against bad ones.
  LORD DENMANalso concurred in the opinion that sufficient time had not been given for the consideration of the Bill. Newspaper reporters did what they liked; and he should like to see the Serjeant at Arms instructed to shut out the representatives of The Times from the Reporters' Gallery.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly.
  Clause 1 (Interpretation) agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Newspaper reports of certain meetings privileged).
  LORD DENMANstated, that from the mistake of a printer inaccuracy might arise, as, in the speech of the Prime Minister eulogizing the Earl of Beacons-field, The Daily Telegraph had a false quantity:—
  " Progreditur(i) victorque viros superominet omnes,"
  was inserted, and the verse—
  "Tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis,"

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  was almost always reported with the word " et "before "nos"—another false quantity. But truth was the great object of a report. The allusion to Marcellus by the right hon. Gentleman was just, even from one who was not his admirer, for anyone foreseeing his great career might have said—" Tu Marcellus eris."
  Amendment moved, in page 2, line 21, to leave out ("accurate"), and insert ("substantially true").—(The Lord Denman.)
  On question? resolved in the negative.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, that before the Report was agreed to he must again submit that time ought to be allowed for preparing Amendments to the Bill, as it was one of grave importance to the public generally, and should be considered most carefully.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that, seeing the points complained of had not been amended, he would urge upon the Government that they should give the time asked for by his noble Friend (the Earl of Redesdale) as being necessary for the purpose.
  LORD WAVENEY LORD WAVENEY, on the contrary, hoped the Report would be received and agreed to, in order that progress might be made with the measure.
  Bill reported, without amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.

SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (WALES) BILL.
(The Lord Aberdare.)
SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (WALES) BILL.

  (NO. 224.) COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee read.
  LORD DENMANsaid, he objected to that part of the measure which proposed to allow liquors to be sold on Sunday at railway stations in Wales, because there was great danger of persons not bonâfide travellers visiting them on Sundays.
  LORD ABERDAREthought that the convenience of railway travellers should be consulted. The provision objected to was no new enactment, but simply left railway stations in the same position in which they now were.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Sale of intoxicating liquors at railway stations).
  Moved, "To omit the Clause"—(The Lord Denman.)
  On question? resolved in the negative.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining clause agreed to.
  Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.

IRISH CHURCH ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Privy Seal.)
IRISH CHURCH ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 227.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD LORD CARLINGFORD, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to provide for the disposal of the small remainder of the business of the Irish Church Commission. Under the Irish Church Act of 1869, which constituted the Irish Church Commission, the business was to come to an end in 1879; but that was not done, and the Act of 1869 had been extended up to the present moment by means of the annual Expiring Laws Continuance Act. The Commission had now, however, almost entirely wound up its business, which, he must say, it had performed with great ability and success. The business now to be done was so much of a routine character that it was unnecessary to keep up the Irish Church Commission, and an opportunity had accordingly been taken of the creation of the Irish Land Commission to transfer the remaining portion of the business to that body. The effect of this Bill was to transfer all the powers, duties, and property of the Irish Church Commission to the Irish Land Commission. The main duties, which were of such a routine character as to add little to the labours of the Land Commission, would consist mainly in the collection of the amount of the Irish Church tithe rent charge which had not been bought up by the landlords, and the collection of the interest upon the mortgage monies still outstanding upon those Church lands which had been bought by the occupiers. All who took an interest in the matter looked upon this arrangement as one of

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  a very convenient and economical character. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(The Lord Privy Seal)
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he thought their Lordships should have had a statement from the noble Viscount at the head of the Commission (Viscount Monck), showing that he acquiesced in the course proposed to be taken.
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he could answer for his noble Friend (Viscount Monck), who was quite aware that the Commission had no duties to perform which would justify its continuance.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that the Prime Minister, in 1835, had said that—
  "He hoped that he should never live to see the day when such a system should he adopted in this country, for the consequences to public men and to the character of the country would be lamentable beyond description…. He hoped that he should never live to see the day when any principle tending to such a result would be adopted in that country (Ireland)."— [3 Hansard, xxvii. 513–14.]
  But that right hon. Gentleman had now carried its principle to the utmost extent, and the complications which would arise would be most perplexing. He (Lord Denman) thought the Boards of Guardians were the safest judges of the value of land in their locality, and could aid the Commissioners better than those just released from their duties under the Irish Church Temporalities Commission.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he supposed there was nothing in the Bill which altered the disposition of the funds.
  LORD CARLINGFORD: Absolutely nothing.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ARMY—ARMY ENLISTMENT—THE POST OFFICE CIRCULAR.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNrose to call attention to a Paper in the form of a Circular issued at the Post Offices, purporting to have the authority of the War Office, inviting young men to enlist under the promise of great advantages, one of which was pension after 21 years'
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  service. He had hitherto been of opinion that by this Circular the whole object of the legislation of the late and present War Office was to evade the granting of pensions, and yet young men were now invited to enlist on the prospect of a pension. If that were not the fact, he thought he should not be doing wrong if he described the Circular as vague and misleading.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY, in reply, said, that the Circular had been issued by the War Office, and he did not see anything singular in it. The paragraph about pensions to which the noble and gallant Lord had referred merely laid down what had always been, and still continued to be, the regulation—namely, that soldiers who had served 21 years should be entitled to a pension.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, that the War Office ought to state the conditions precisely. It would appear, from the isolated words of the Circular, that any soldier might obtain a pension.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that the noble and gallant Lord could not have read the Circular, which showed that only non-commissioned officers and soldiers who re-engaged under the special terms for 21 years' service would be entitled to a pension. The second paragraph gave all the information that was wanted.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Four o'clock, till To-morrow, One o'clock.