Lords Sitting of 18 August 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Municipal Corporations (216); Pollen Fishing (Ireland)* (218).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Consolidated Fund (No. 4) *; East Indian Railway (Redemption of Annuities) (215); Indian Loan of 1879* (212); National Debt* (213).
Select Committee—Report—Stolen Goods.

THE NEW COMMERCIAL TREATY WITH FRANCE (NEGOTIATIONS)—RUPTURE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS.—QUESTION.
LORD WAVENEY: I beg to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the Question, of which I have given him private Notice, with reference to the French Commercial Treaty?
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have to state that a proposal was made some little time ago by the French Government to the effect that the English and French Commissioners who have been engaged in London in negotiating the proposed new Commercial Treaty should resume their meetings at Paris on the 22nd instant. The French Government have made new proposals with regard to the duties on iron, on woollen, and on cotton goods. Her Majesty's Government considered that those proposals afforded scope for consideration and discussion; and they, therefore, assented to the re-assembling of the Commission at Paris, on condition that the existing Treaty be prolonged for three months, in order to give time for ample consideration of the proposals. The French Government, however, have now declined to accede to this prolongation; and we have, therefore, to our regret, felt ourselves unable to accept the invitation to the Commissioners to reassemble at Paris next week.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  EARL SPENCER, in presenting a Bill for consolidating enactments relating to Municipal Corporations in England and Wales, said: This Bill, which has been prepared in pursuance of a recommendation of the Statute Law Committee, is, as far as can be, a pure Consolidation Bill. It has been prepared with the greatest care by Mr. Reilly and Mr. Ilbert, and places the whole of the law on this most important subject in a compendious form. Some few amendments in the law have been introduced where they were manifestly desirable, and they have been generally adopted on the advice of persons or bodies practically acquainted with the working of the present system. It is not proposed to proceed with the Bill during the present Session. It is only introduced for the purpose of
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  being circulated and considered during the Recess. A similar course was adopted with the Bill which was introduced by the then Lord Chancellor on the 12th of August, 1879, with a view to its being proceeded with last year. Since then there has been no fitting opportunity for its introduction into Parliament, and it is again submitted in the hope that such a useful measure may soon become law.
  Bill presented (The LORD PRESIDENT); read 1a (No. 216.)

  FEES OF THE HOUSE.
  Moved, That the following fees be inserted in the Table of Fees of this House:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Petition for additional provision

  5

  0

  0

  Certificate of Examiner thereon

  5

  0

  0

  Order thereon

  1

  1

  0

  Standing Orders Committee

  4

  15

  0

  Report of said Committee

  2

  2

  0

  agreed to, and ordered accordingly.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
  Ordered, That the Table of the Fees of this House relating to Local Personal, and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, as amended this day, be printed and circulated with the Standing Orders of this House relating to such Bills. (No. 217.)

EAST INDIAN RAILWAY (REDEMPTION OF ANNUITIES) BILL.—(No. 215.)
(The Viscount Enfield.)
EAST INDIAN RAILWAY (REDEMPTION OF ANNUITIES) BILL.—(No. 215.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, the object of the Bill was twofold —first, it proposed to extend the power granted by the Purchase Act of 1879, by which the Secretary of State was permitted to create India Four per Cent Stock, in order to purchase the annuity of any proprietor of East Indian Railway Stock, so as to enable him to create Three and a Half per Cent Stock (or Stock at any other rate not exceeding 4 per cent), in order to purchase the annuity of any holder thereof. The object was, secondly, to act in a similar manner in regard to any other existing liabilities of the Indian Government. In all cases it was provided that there should be a reduction of interest (by at least l–9th), and that the saving so effected should be used by way of sinking fund, to ex-

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  tinguish the permanent Stock created within the period for which the liability existed.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(The Viscount Enfield.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—MR. PARNELL.—QUESTION.
EARL FORTESCUEasked the Lord Privy Seal, in the absence of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, Whether Charles Parnell, Esq., M.P., who is stated in "Thom's Official Directory" for 1881 to have been at the date of its publication in the commission of the peace for county Wicklow, was then, and, if so, whether he is in the commission of the peace still? He only heard, on the last day of last week, that Mr. Parnell was in the commission of the peace, and he at once verified the information by Thom's Official Directory, and lost no time in giving Notice of this Question. If he had heard that Mr. Parnell was in the commission of the peace in January last he should have asked the Question then, because he thought it was very desirable for that Question to be publicly asked and answered.
LORD CARLINGFORD, in reply, said, that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had been compelled by judicial and official business to return to Ireland; but he had given him the information which enabled him to answer the Question of his noble Friend. As a matter of fact, Mr. Parnell had been in the commission of the peace for nearly 10 years past, and was still in the commission of the peace.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYthought it a rather singular thing that the Government should have retained Mr. Parnell in the commission of the peace after having instituted a State trial against him, and after he had taken such a prominent part in an agitation which the Government had denounced.

HIGHWAY LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether, pre-
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  vious to the introduction of a new Highways Bill, there would be any objection to address a circular letter to the chairmen and magistrates in Quarter Sessions assembled, with the object of eliciting as far as possible the general feeling in the rural districts respecting the details of future legislation on the subject of public roads? The noble Viscount said he believed that, before legislation was proceeded with, information was wanted from all parts of the country. He was emboldened to hope that the Government would take the matter up from the strong language in which a Member of the Government had condemned the last Act of Parliament on the subject. Their public roads were the worst managed in the world. As long as they had Local Boards who appointed persons with low salaries to look after them they would not have their roads in a proper state. What was required was that there should be properly salaried officers, who should be responsible to the Quarter Sessions or some other body. In France and other Continental countries the whole supervision of the roads was placed in the hands of highly salaried officers, who had persons under them charged with the duty of looking after certain portions of road, perhaps five miles in length. In England the case was different; but all he asked of the Government was to address a circular letter to the Courts of Quarter Sessions throughout the country to ascertain what were the feelings of the several localities on the subject, as it was desirable their Lordships should have the fullest information previously to being called upon to sanction a new system.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETreminded the noble Viscount that a Select Committee of their Lordships' House had been sitting on this subject throughout the whole of the present and a great portion of last Session. They had taken the evidence of persons from all the counties of England, from Durham to Devonshire, and from Suffolk on the one side to Montgomery on the other. They had heard the views, not only of magistrates of Quarter Sessions, but of ratepayers, farmers, millers, and all classes on the subject. There was a mass of evidence which would enable anyone who wished to study the Blue Book to arrive at a conclusion, though, no doubt, the evi-

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  dence was very conflicting. He did not see the use of taking the views of magistrates, as suggested by the noble Viscount; the opinions of the Highway Boards would be better.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he had not seen the Blue Book to which the noble Duke had referred.
  EARL FORTESCUEremarked, that it would have been better if the noble Viscount before asking the Question had spent some hours in studying the Evidence which the Committee had taken. When once the country had been put to the expense of having the Report with the Evidence printed, he did not believe that the cost of transmitting it to the different Quarter Sessions and Highway Boards would be greater than the advantage that would be derived to them from its perusal. But the subject was not quite so simple, nor so easily to be dealt with, as the noble Viscount seemed to imagine. It was a very complicated and difficult matter; and very competent witnesses, who had spoken conscientiously, and had given very good evidence, had expressed very conflicting views upon it. He did not think any practical end would be served by the issue of the Circular referred to.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, that one question, and a most important one, was where means were to come from for the repair of the roads. There was a great cry throughout the country as to the excessive burden thrown upon one class of property for maintaining roads for the benefit of all. It was a most unfortunate thing to abolish all the turnpikes, as the roads were now used by persons who paid nothing towards their repair and maintenance. He was much surprised that there should have been such an outcry against turnpikes; but it became a fashion to make it, though he could not see the objection which was urged against them. Many persons in business—brewers and others—made a profit from their use of the roads, and paid little or nothing towards their repair, and they ought to be made to pay some toll for their traffic.
  LORD CARRINGTONsaid, he hoped the noble Viscount would be satisfied with the answer which had been given by the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset). The Government found that a very large amount of evidence had been
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  taken with respect to the existing state of the law relating to highways by the Committee appointed by their Lordships to inquire into the whole matter, and they had just made their Report to the House. Witnesses from all parts of the country had been examined on the subject, and among them were magistrates and persons actively engaged in the administration of the Highway Acts, who had fully stated their views as to the amendments needed in the existing law. Under these circumstances, there would appear to be ample information collected of the feeling as to the details of future legislation on the subject; but if, after perusing the voluminous evidence which had been taken, further information should be needed, the Government would consider the expediency of obtaining it in some such way as that suggested. At the same time, it might be added that after the Reports and Evidence had been circulated the Local Government Board would be ready to entertain any representations which either the chairmen and magistrates in Quarter Sessions or the highway authorities might deem it expedient to offer with reference to the legislation required.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.