Lords Sitting of 11 August 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Erne Lough and River * (149); Ecclesiastical Courts Regulation, now Discharge of Contumacious Prisoners (201).
Committee—Report—Metropolitan Board of Works (Money) (186); Superannuation (Post Office and Works) * (203); Central Criminal Court (Prisons)* (162); Leases for Schools (Ireland)* (188); Corrupt Practices (Suspension of Elections)* (208).
Third Reading—Public Works Loans* (196), and passed.
Royal Assent—Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension [44 & 45 Vict. c. 25]; Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment
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[44 & 45 Vict. c. 27]; Reformatory Institutions (Ireland) [44 & 45 Vict, c.29]; Metallic Mines (Gunpowder) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 26]; Seed Supply and other Acts (Ireland) Amendment [44 & 45 Vict. c. 28]; Turnpike Acts Continuance [44 & 45 Vict. c. 31]; Customs (Officers) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 30]; Public Loans (Ireland) Remission [44 & 45 Vict. c. 32]; Summary Procedure (Scotland) Amendment [44 & 45 Vict. c. 33]; Coroners (Ireland) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 35]; Metropolitan Open Spaces Act (1877) Amendment [44 & 45 Vict. c. 34]; British Honduras (Court of Appeal) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 36]; Alkali, &c. Works Regulation [44 & 45 Vict. c. 37]; Commons Regulation (Shenfield) Provisional Order [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxi]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Acton, &c.) [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxii]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxiii]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 3) [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxiv]; Water Provisional Orders [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxv]; Alsager Chapel (Marriages) [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxvi]; Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) [44 & 45 Vict. c. clxvii].

PRIVATE BILLS.
Standing Orders Nos. 22, 33, 91, 114, 115, 116, 117, and 140a considered and amended, and to be printed as amended. (No. 167.)
SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL STATE—THE BOUNDARIES.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  LORD BRABOURNEcalled attention to the Convention just concluded with the Transvaal Boers, the 1st Article whereof stated that the new Transvaal State would "embrace the land lying between the following boundaries," and added—"here follow three pages of definitions of Boundaries"—without any clue to what these were. He (Lord Brabourne) reminded their Lordships that in the Instructions which the Secretary of State for the Colonies gave to the Commissioners on 31st March, he entered with some elaboration into the condition of the different districts of the Transvaal with reference to the numbers of the Native population resident in each, and suggested that one or more of these districts should be severed from the Transvaal for the better protection of the Natives, and the greater security of peace for the future. He wished to ask the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley), Whether his suggestions had been wholly, or in part, accepted, or whether they had been discarded and set at nought by the Commissioners; in fact, whether the noble Earl could state what the new boundaries would be, and

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  whether any future Papers to be presented in reference to the Transvaal would comprise a map of the new State?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, in answer to the Question of my noble Friend, I may state that, after full consideration, it was decided not to sever from the Transvaal any part of the territory which had previously been considered to belong to the State. My noble Friend will see that I have not got the full text of the Convention, simply because it was not thought worth while to have three pages of definitions telegraphed; but I can give him the main definitions of the boundary as they were telegraphed before the Convention was signed—
  "External Boundaries of Future Transvaal State.—On the South as at present; on the South-east, the boundaries of Zululand and Swaziland as lately defined under the authority of Her Majesty's Government; on the East, boundaries of Lydenburg and Zoutpansberg at present recognized; on the North by the Limpopo River; on the North-west and West, the boundaries as laid down in 1880 by the Colonial Government; and on the South-west by the boundary of the Keate award, as recommended. It will leave outside the Transvaal the Barolong Chiefs Montsioa and Mosthete, the Korama Chief Massou, and the Batlapi Chiefs Mankaroane, Mathlabani, and the ex-chief Gasibone.
  "Keate Award Territory.—The new boundary line proceeds from Ramathlabama in a southerly direction till it reaches the Hart River below the Salt Pans, thence along that river to Manusa, and then through Koppie Inkel to the boundary of Griqualand West, midway between the Vaal and Hart Rivers. It will leave within the Transvaal all occupied Boers' farms held in title, except portions of two, and exclude about 75 registered but unoccupied farms, the titles of which will be cancelled, the owners receiving such compensation as the Volksraad may assign."
  When the Government receives the Convention in full, and Papers are presented, I will take care that a map is included.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS REGULATION BILL.—(No. 201.)
(The Earl Beauchamp.)
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS REGULATION BILL.—(No. 201.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he wished to make a few remarks at that stage of the Bill. He did not from its title know the nature of it, and
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  therefore he was not in the House when it was read a second time; but, as he was a member of the body through whom Mr. Green was now in prison, he desired to make a few remarks. In bringing forward the Bill, the noble Earl in charge of it (Earl Beauchamp) begged the whole question by calling in question the legal action and authority of the Courts that dealt with the case. When a case went against a person, he was always inclined to think the law was bad and badly carried out; and in Ireland, where at present lawlessness prevailed, the lawless parties felt exactly the same thing. They said they did not like the law, and therefore would not obey it. The plea was one he certainly should not have expected from anyone in the position of the noble Earl. There might be reasons for changing the constitution of a Court or of the law; but, while they existed, every good subject of the Queen should consider that he ought to be bound by the law, and to obey the Court. The most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) had again and again stated that the Courts having arrived at a decision, it was necessary to enforce the law; but when, after a struggle of years, it was enforced, he moved for a Commission which had been treated as calling in question the authority of the Courts that administered the law, and now he would send back Mr. Green to carry on without check his illegal proceedings. Under the circumstances, it was not surprising that it was said that indirectly the most rev. Primate and the right rev. Bench had given encouragement to the lawlessness that existed in the Church. The noble Earl wanted to know why did the Church Association select a poor parish, and attack Mr. Green, the clergyman of that poor congregation, and his friends in their illegal practices, instead of attacking a rich one? The answer was plain. The Church Association were obliged to take up cases in defence of poor congregations. The poor could not defend themselves. They could not choose their Church, but were obliged to attend the one in their own neighbourhood; the rich could do so, backed as Ritualistic clergymen were by the funds of the Church Union. The most rev. Primate asked that Mr. Green should be allowed to return to his cure of souls and carry on illegal practices. Did the most rev.

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  Primate consider that this was a matter of no importance? It was of far greater importance than the inconvenience Mr. Green suffered from his own contumacy. It was to prevent this wrong that Mr. Green was kept in prison. The most rev. Primate the other evening grieved that a conscientious man like Mr. Green should be put in prison. Now, conscience was a very varying thing, and in some countries while the men went out to rob, the women stayed at home to pray. Every man's conscience was hurt when he had to do that which he did not like to do. There were two kinds of conscientious clergymen—those who, like Cardinal Manning, conscientiously held views contrary to the Church of England and conscientiously left it. Mr. Green, on the contrary, held views, or, at any rate, carried out practices, contrary to the law of the Church of England while remaining in it. He would hardly become a Cardinal; but probably he could become a priest of the Church of Rome, or, indeed, any other Church to whose laws he would yield obedience. What hardship was inflicted on Mr. Green when, if he would give up the emoluments of the Church, he could free himself and act according to what his conscience dictated? If he were liberated unconditionally, he would go back to his congregation, and continue to encourage his parishioners to practice doctrines that were foreign to the Church of England, and which the Courts of Law had decided to be illegal and contrary to the covenant by which Mr. Green held his position in the Church of England. Did the most rev. Primate think that that would be desirable? Was it not most important to the people, and more important than whether Mr. Green should wait a little more or less in prison? Surely the welfare of the congregation should be as much thought of as that of the clergyman. If he could be prevented from committing these offences again, he (Lord Oranmore and Browne), no more than any of their Lordships, wished that the rev. gentleman should be retained in prison. They must remember that Mr. Green was one of those clergymen who refused obedience as much to Bishops as to the Civil Courts; they owned no authority but their own consciences; they were bound by no contracts and no promises. Each was an infallible Pope to himself and his followers. There was
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  no law against that; each of them was free to stand, on that ground but he was not free to enter on a contract to receive all the advantages accruing under it, and to repudiate the obligations, as decided, with the exception of the Court of Arches, by the same Courts which interpreted contracts in all other cases. He hoped there was no doubt that Englishmen would support the rights of free contract, and no doubt either that the Civil Courts would preserve the right of interpreting the legal bearing of such contracts. As to the analogy with the case of Mr. Thorogood, as was shown by the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack the other evening, he (Lord Oranmore and Browne) could see none. It was of little importance that he did not pay 5s. 6d. church rates; while it was of the greatest importance that a clergyman of the Church of England should be bound to fulfil the legal obligations he had undertaken. But the fact was that Mr. Thorogood was released directly he complied with the law, and the fine was paid. The most rev. Primate stated how impossible it was, if Mr. Green were released, to enforce the obligations. But whose action had made it so? When the Royal Commission was proposed, he (Lord Oranmore and Browne) had expressed the opinion that it would be highly undesirable, as it could arrive at but one conclusion. He was informed that the right rev. Bench had, for the future, unanimously resolved not to allow any clergyman to be prosecuted, though his ministrations were undeniably contrary to law, pending the Report of the Royal Commission.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: There is no foundation whatever for that statement.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, of course he accepted that denial, as far as regarded the most rev. Primate himself; but there were cases in which Members of the right rev. Bench had said plainly and distinctly what he had stated, and they were Bishops who did not in the least favour the High Church party; and he knew this, that no action had since been taken by the members of the Church Association. He had been under the impression that the resolution he had referred to had been passed, and he was glad to hear it denied, because he hoped they would be able to enforce the law against recalcitrant mem-

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  bers of the Church of England. Circumstances had prevented his calling attention to the constitution of the Commission; but had he time he could show that it was a wholly one-sided Commission.
  THE EARL OF EEDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, the noble Lord was evidently not aware of the Amendment which it was proposed to make in Committee.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that was so. He must, however, complain that there had not been a member of the Church Commission appointed by the Prime Minister. The right rev. Bench had often condemned both the Church Association and the Church Union; but while the former was not represented on the Commission, there were two Members of the latter upon it, and results had shown that the former society was fighting in support of, and the latter against the laws of the Church of England. As to the wish that Mr. Green should be released from prison, he heartily desired that Mr. Green should be released, if he would either fulfil the obligations he had undertaken as a clergyman of the Church of England, or, if he could not do so conscientiously, no longer continue to retain a false and injurious position. The statement they had heard the other day from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, which was to the effect that it was important that the law should be carried out, was most satisfactory. The noble and learned Lord put forward these views with the weight of his high position and free from all taint of partizanship; and he (Lord Oranmore and Browne) had no doubt that he would support those views in no undecided tone.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he regretted very much that the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Browne) was not in the House on Tuesday when the Bill was read a second time. He (Earl Beauchamp) had never said that the decision of the Law Courts should not be obeyed; what he did say was that it was not right that the decisions of the Law Courts should be pressed home with a savage rigour as they had been. The noble Lord stated that the reason why the Church Association had taken up the case against Mr. Green was because a poor congregation was not able to defend itself. But that was not a
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  reason worthy of the noble Lord, because the congregation of Miles Platting only wished to be left alone. The noble Lord had also alluded to the fact of their being unable to attend other churches; but it was evident that they did not desire to do so, as Mr. Green was much respected by them. The Church Association had been unable to get any of the parishioners to take part in the proceedings against Mr. Green, and it had been necessary for the prosecutors to qualify strangers as parishioners by obtaining for them a residence, and the cost of this proceeding Mr. Green had been obliged to pay. It was a matter of notoriety that Mr. Green enjoyed the confidence of his flock and the whole of his parish in a most remarkable manner.
  House in Committee.
  Clause 1 (Repeal of part of 3 & 4 Vict, c. 93).
  On the Motion of The Earl BEAUCHAMP, the following Amendment made:—In page 1, line 8, leave out ("first recited,") and insert ("said.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 2 and 3 severally agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Party not to be released from further observance of justice).
  On the Motion of The Earl BEAUCHAMP, the following Amendment made:—In page 1, line 17, after ("such") insert ("party or"), and after ("person") insert ("or party.")
  Moved, at end of Clause to add—
  "Provided always, that if such suit he one brought under the Public Worship Regulation Act, 1874, no further proceedings shall he taken in such suit unless the bishop of the diocese certify in writing under his hand that the party or person has since his release from custody had an opportunity of submitting to his godly administrations and has failed to submit to the same. Provided further, that upon such certificate being filed in the registry of the Court by which such party or person has been pronounced in contempt, such party or person being an incumbent within the meaning of the said Public Worship Regulation Act, shall be liable to the same penalty as an incumbent against whom a second inhibition in regard to the same monition has been issued within the provisions of section 13 of the said Act, and his benefice or other ecclesiastical preferment shall thenceforth become void as provided in the said section."—(The Earl Beauchamp.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved to amend the Proviso by extending it,

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  not only to suits under the Act of 1874, but to all ecclesiastical suits: and also by following, as nearly as possible, the procedure pointed out by the clause in the Act of 1874, to which reference was made, by the introduction of certain words with the view of giving fuller effect to the provisions of the Public Worship Regulation Act.
  Amendment, as amended, agreed, to.
  LORD ORANMOER AND BROWNEasked, if the Proviso was adopted, what means would be left to bring clergymen who offended against the law before the Court?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply, said, that the object of the proposal was that the responsibility should be thrown on the Bishop. The reason which recommended that course to their Lordships was that they were dealing with the case of persons whose minds were peculiarly constituted; and who, though they had not thought it consistent with their duty to obey the admonitions of the Courts, might think it right to obey an admonition coming from an authority which they acknowledged.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Power to prolong imprisonment for a further period of three months).
  On the Motion of The Earl BEAU-CHAMP, Clause omitted.
  Moved, To add the following Clause:—"This Act may be cited as the Discharge of Contumacious Prisoners Act, 1881."—(The Earl Beauchamp.)
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid, he was glad to hear that the Bill was to be passed under a more accurate but less ambitious title than the "Ecclesiastical Courts Regulation Bill." There could be little difference of opinion with respect to the limited purpose of the Bill; but its original title was entirely misleading, and conveyed the idea that an attempt had been made at a very late period of the Session to deal with a far more difficult question.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYwas understood to say that he did not find any fault with the Judge of the Court or with the Church Association. He thought that the punishment for contumacy was too long. There should be a
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  fixed period, say six months, and then, if the clergyman was still disobedient and totally disregarded the law, he should be got rid of altogether from the Church.
  Motion agreed to; Clause added accordingly.
  House resumed.
  The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow;and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 198.)

METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS (MONEY) BILL.—(No. 186.)
(The Lord Thurlow.)
METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS (MONEY) BILL.—(No. 186.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, that he felt bound to take advantage of that opportunity of again expressing his objection to Clause 14, which would entail heavy expense upon the ratepayers of the entire Metropolis, though the proposal had been made without Notice in the other House, or any preparation to contest its expediency or justice. The Bill, in fact, affected the interests of the ratepayers without giving them power to appear and protect those interests. He protested against legislation of that character being brought forward at this period of the Session, and in such a hurried way. The Amendment which was proposed to be moved by the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr) should be agreed to, as the proposition of the promoters of the Bill was most unusual.
  House in Committee.
  Clauses 1 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 14 (Expenses of inquiry as to markets).
  EARL DE LA WARRrose to move an Amendment which, he said, would have the effect of merely giving power under the clause to the Board of Works to make inquiries into the food supply of the Metropolis, without authorizing them to obtain further powers from Parliament. He submitted that if their Lordships agreed to the clause as it stood, the interests of the City would be se-

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  riously affected, especially seeing that power would be given to set up rival markets against the City markets without notice having been given to the parties interested. It had been stated in the debate on the second reading of the Bill that the measure would not affect the interests of the Corporation of the City of London; but he was at a loss to understand how that could be. He contended that it did in a most important matter. Sums amounting to up wards of £3,000,000 had been invested in the City markets, upon the security of the Corporation; and he contended that that body was both willing and competent to do all that was required in the matter. The origin of this attempt to establish new markets was, of course, the alleged inadequacy of Billingsgate; but the lately issued Report of Mr. Spencer Walpole confirmed the view taken by the Corporation—that the true complaint against Billingsgate Market was, not that it was in every way insufficient, but that it was not easily accessible. The Corporation had already enlarged the market, and, having received the Report of a Committee, who had in an exhaustive manner inquired into the fish supply of the Metropolis, they were prepared, as far as possible, to do what might be necessary to make the market more easy of access. Before long they had every reason to believe they would be able to bring about that desirable result. Mr. Walpole had stated that it would be a serious loss to the public if the fish market were removed from the river side. There was no objection whatever to these markets being improved. It was not only the Corporation of London that was interested in this question. The ratepayers of the Metropolis were also largely interested. The effect of the Metropolitan Board taking into their hands all the markets of the City would be enormously expensive. Millions of money would be required to establish these markets, and the burden would fall upon the ratepayers, who were already overburdened with taxes, and were petitioning that some of those taxes should be removed. This Bill would give to the Metropolitan Board of Works power to borrow more money chargeable to the ratepayers for the supply of fish to the public, a large portion of whom were not ratepayers. He moved to omit all the words of the
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  clause after the words "Management Act, 1855."
  Moved, In page 6, line 39, to leave out from ("Metropolis Management Act, 1855") to end of clause.—(The Earl Be La Warr.)
  LORD THURLOWsaid, he could not accept the noble Earl's Amendment, and felt he had some reason to complain of the course taken by the noble Earl with reference to this Bill. The other evening he gave the noble Earl a fair opportunity of taking the sense of the House on the question he had just raised; but he did not avail himself of that opportunity. The course now pursued appeared to him to be slightly unusual, inasmuch as the noble Earl had given no Notice of the Amendment to the House. Nor had he himself received private Notice of it.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, he had sent Notice of it to the noble Lord.
  LORD THURLOWsaid, in that case, no Notice had reached him. This was certainly a money clause, as it contained distinct provisions for money to be expended with a specified object. He could not agree with any of the arguments adduced by the noble Earl. The case was stated very fully the other evening, and he had nothing to add to that statement.
  LORD MOUNT TEMPLEpointed out that the clause would not empower the Metropolitan Board of Works to establish a market in any part of the Metropolis. It only enabled them to make preliminary inquiries and arrangements for the introduction of a Bill, when the proper time would arrive for the City to make any objections they pleased to its proposals. The monopoly of Billingsgate doubled the price of fish, and led to the destruction of the unsold fish. The improvement of markets was necessary for the public good, and ought not to be sacrificed to a rivalry between the Metropolitan Board and the Corporation of the City. He hoped their Lordships would not agree to deprive the Board of the power they ought to possess of considering whether there should not be a fish market in the Metropolis in addition to that of the City. The objection of the Corporation was invented too late. If it had been valid it ought to have prevented the Hungerford and Columbia markets.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, the Corporation of the City of London did not object to the establishment of any number of retail markets.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNremarked that, if that were so, he could not understand why they objected to this clause, seeing that it afforded the only practical means by which a great public want could be met.
  On question, resolved in the negative.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—THE REVISED CODE.

  DEPARTMENTAL STATEMENT.
  EARL SPENCER, in rising to make a Statement upon the proposals for revision of the Code and the Examination Schedules of the Education Department which had been laid on the Table of the House, said, those proposals were brought forward in fulfilment of the pledge he had given last Session on behalf of the Government. He should have preferred to bring them forward at an earlier period of the Session; but the subject was so vast, and surrounded by so many difficulties, that that was found to be impossible. As it was, they did not propose to at once alter the Education Code, and the alteration, of which notice was now given, with a view to discussion in the Autumn, would not take effect till some time in 1882—a plan which was convenient both to the Department and to school boards and teachers throughout the country. The new system would insure pretty much the same payment to schools as the old. The average schools would earn about the same sum as hitherto, the best schools a little more, and the worst schools a little less. At present payments to schools were classed under four heads—1. the general payment to schools on average attendance, including efficiency and music; 2. individual payments by results on passes in Standards; 3. average attendance payments for class subjects; and 4, individual payments for specific subjects. The principle of payment for average attendance was now to be applied to three of these
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  four heads of payment, leaving only the specific subjects to be paid on individual examinations. It was found that individual payments for passes in the Standards did not work quite fairly to the schools and the teachers. At the Inspector's visit, children might be absent from illness, or on account of the weather, or the season of the year in which the inspection took place, and the earnings of the school must therefore be very much diminished. That was a matter which was much complained of. It was also found that there was a tendency on the part of teachers to direct their efforts to one class of children and neglect another. That evil would be corrected by the proposals now made, as failure in any department of the school would affect the whole grant, and not merely so much of it as might be earned by the neglected children. Moreover, if payments on the individual passes were done away with, and made to depend on the average attendance of children, there would no longer be any inducement to fraud. Another great improvement that would follow from a system of payment on the average attendance was a simplification of the present system of auditing. There were 1,900,000 children examined last year. The audit department examined the school-history of every one of these children during seven years, which was generally the duration of school-life of children. This was to see that payment was not made twice for the same thing to any one child. These figures would give an idea of the vast work involved by the auditing of individual passes. He would give their Lordships an illustration of the way in which the system of paying on average attendance would work. Let them suppose a school in which there were 300 children in average attendance, and that 250 should be present at the time of the Inspector's visit. Supposing him to examine 200, the number of passes possible would be 600, there being three subjects in which each child could pass. Supposing, however, that only 500 passes should be made, or only 83 per cent of the possible passes, then the full payment being, say, 10 s. for every pass—he took a hypothetical figure—the payment would be 83 per cent of 10 s., or 8s. 6d., and the capitation grant would be 300 times 8s. 6d., or £127 10s. All children that should

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  have been six months in a school would be presented to the Inspector for examination; and while all would continue to be examined in the Third and higher Standards, it would be for him to judge how many he ought to examine in the Second Standard. The result of the scheme would be a great diminution in the work of examination, though the Inspectors' duties would be increased in other ways. Out of 1,000,000 children above seven years of age who had usually been examined in the past in Standards I. and II., only 500,000 would be examined in the future. In order to meet one of the objections levelled at the existing system, the Department proposed to give Examiners and Inspectors power to classify the children examined by them according to the manner in which they should have passed the examination. The question of the grant to a school would be affected by this classification, because an extra grant would be given to schools classified as fair, good, or excellent. At present, a school which passed its scholars well obtained no more than another in which the same number of children barely scraped through. The proposal would thus counteract the present tendency to bring down schools to a dead level of teaching merely what was enough to pass. With regard to the question of class subjects, no very great change was proposed. Schools would be regarded as consisting of two divisions. Two class subjects might be taken up in each division. Steps had been taken to meet the objection that fancy subjects should not be taught to children who were not well-grounded in the "three R's." Specific subjects would only be taught to children who had passed the Fourth Standard, and not even then, unless 75 per cent of the possible passes were obtained in the "three R's" at the beginning of the year in which specific subjects were taken up, as well as at the end of the year during which they had been taught. Steps would be taken to encourage the extension of night schools, where there had been a diminished attendance since the introduction of compulsory education. The number of scholars had fallen off from 70,000 in 1870 to 40,000 in 1880. Boys used to work during the day and attend school at night. Now they must attend day-schools till they had passed a reasonable Standard, and,
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  having done so, were not inclined to go also to night-schools, more especially if the instruction in them was confined to the "three R's." They proposed to adopt other and more interesting subjects as class subjects. They also proposed that in night-schools ministers of all denominations, often the only available teachers in country districts, should no longer be debarred from teaching subjects with which they were familiar, and which they made interesting to the night scholars. He now came to the question of teachers. The teachers under the Education Department formed a small army in themselves, numbering, as they did, upwards of 70,000. There were 30,000 certificated teachers, 7,600 assistant teachers, and 33,000 pupil teachers. There were, in addition, a small number of stipendiary monitors; but as the system was not found in practice to work well it was proposed to do away with it. Of the teachers, the waste by retirement and death each year amounted to 6 per cent, so that the supply required each year was about 1,800; and as, owing to the increase of population, additional schools would be required, the number of teachers to be supplied annually would soon be over 2,000. The Training Colleges were only able to supply about 1,500 each year, leaving a deficiency of 500; and, to secure that number, it was proposed to admit as teachers persons, men or women, who had been at any University in the United Kingdom. It might be said that such persons would not be likely to become teachers; but when he mentioned the remarkable fact that he had on his list the names of no fewer than 130 men who had taken first-class University honours who were candidates for the position of Her Majesty's Inspectors, he thought their Lordships would agree with him that a very large number of less distinguished persons would be found ready to become teachers in their larger schools. With respect to pupil teachers, a rule would be laid down that not more than three should be engaged at any one school. That alteration would, he thought, have a very important effect upon education, because it was manifest that a pupil teacher was not as competent to teach large classes as was an assistant teacher. Pupil teachers were apprenticed for four years, from 14 to 18 years of age, and about 8,000 finished

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  their apprenticeship each year. A large number of those who desired to follow the Profession went to the Training College. Last year the number was 4,000, of which number 3,000 passed; but 1,500 only could be admitted. A regulation would be made that an assistant teacher should be required for every 60 scholars, instead of 80 as heretofore. Then with respect to infant schools, in schools where 40 infants attended a separate adult teacher would be required; and where 60 attended there should be a certificated teacher. The Schedule as to needlework would be simplified—a change which it was believed would be attended with beneficial results. With respect to music, 1s. was now allowed for each pupil taught; but in future the allowance would be 6d., and an additional 6d. if music was taught from notes or according to the Tonic Sol-fa system. Within the last few years, immense strides had been made in that direction, nearly all the masters sent out by the Training Schools being competent to teach by notes, or, at all events, to examine by notes. With regard to honour certificates, it was proposed to stop the granting of them. It was hoped that the boys holding honour certificates would be induced to remain at school; but, in the working of the system, it was proved that they did not do so. It was found that the conditions were not complied with, and that a better class of children than was intended reaped the benefit; and it had, therefore, been determined to do away with the honour certificates. The money that would be saved would probably be required for increased grants to night schools. The Child's School Book was to be abandoned, because it was a great deal of trouble, and it had broken down where it was most needed. A child had been found in Manchester with 11 books instead of one. It was not proposed to introduce these changes at present in Scotland, which was, in many respects, more advanced than England; while the Scotch Code already contained some of the principles of the change now proposed for the English Code. In order to obtain greater uniformity of inspection, and prevent, as far as possible, the injustice that arose from the different standards of different Inspectors, which made examinations severe in one place and lax in another, it was proposed to organize the
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  Inspectorate to a certain extent, to place a senior Inspector in charge of a large division containing several districts, and to bring the senior Inspectors together for consultation and discussion. A class of Sub-Inspectors would act under the District Inspector, who, in turn, would be supervised by the senior or divisional Inspectors, and in that way the desired uniformity would be attained to a greater extent than at present. He must acknowledge the assistance that had been received in the consideration of these changes, not only from the Department, but also from those who probably knew most of the working of the Code—namely, the schoolmasters—and he hoped the changes would be accepted willingly and with pleasure by that important body.
  LORD NORTONsaid, he must express his satisfaction with the worthy manner in which the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council had treated national education. The presentation of the Code in draft for discussion in the Recess was a treatment of the subject in no Party spirit, but as of equal general interest, and an appeal to the nation for their opinion on a paramount national question. The most cursory reading showed its intention not to be further complication, but greater clearness and consolidation on the basis of their accumulated experience. It would be unworthy of such frank treatment to venture at once to criticize its details; but one or two remarks on the leading features of its revision of former Codes he would offer in its own spirit. Experience justified its change of principle in making public grants from payment on individual results to premiums on the average attendance and sufficiency of schools. But here came in the old difficulty of adjustment to town and country. Was it impossible to have a rural and an urban standard, as they had rural and urban local authorities, and as the Scotch had parish and borough schools? One standard could not equally suit both. But their primary interest was in the manual labour class, which must leave school early for labour, and could not have the time, or means, or object, to rise as high as the town artizan in book-learning. Some attempt was made in the scheme to meet that difficulty by dividing schools into lower and upper divisions, and allotting subjects to each.

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  The lower they might suppose to represent elementary education; but if so the upper must mean secondary education. Then followed the question—Did they undertake more than elementary education in the publicly - aided national schools? Had they gone beyond the original intention, and were they right, in including secondary instruction in elementary schools? The words used in describing the Seventh Standard in the scheme were, that it was meant for those who had passed the Sixth Standard some time before leaving school. But it never was intended that children of the working class should be kept at school a day after they were fit to go to work. Any higher learning, therefore, should be meant, not as a smattering of incipient science to fill up an ideal interval, but for children who were really going on to higher education. So far as this scheme made the distinction between primary and secondary teaching clearer, it was wise. It avowedly recognized the provision of much higher education as part of national education; but it was to be hoped it meant to separate it from elementary education. There could be no doubt they were undertaking middle-class education; and, if so, they should do it distinctly and more thoroughly, and not mix it up with primary education, to the injury of both. The discussion of that draft Code in "another place" came on in a debate on museums for the promotion of art in the Provinces. That showed the connection in idea of the New Code with higher education. South Kensington was doing still more for art education than the Seventh Standard and specific subjects in the Fourth Schedule proposed for sciences and foreign languages. But a greater proof of higher ambition was the proposal in the scheme that graduates of the two Universities should be assistant teachers in national schools. It was said that many such men were wanting employment, and that this would open a new avenue to them. That was a consideration for the learned men supplied so much in advance of demand. But as to the schools, it was significant as considering their assistant masters to be men on a par with the clergy, clearly an advance from the first idea of elementary education of the working class. The amounts of particular grants were not stated; it might, therefore, be
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  intended that this secondary education should be self-supporting, and that the illusory scale of 9d. fees as a limit of elementary education should be done away with. What were now set up at Bradford and elsewhere as higher schools were only another set of elementary schools, with the same smattering of science; only at higher, yet not self-supporting fees, for a separate provision to the middle class. There might be intended in the completion of this scheme exhibitions to help cleverer children of the working class to extend their schooling in common with the middle class to higher study. All that might modify one's general opinion of the scheme, and judgment must, therefore, be deferred. One good sequence from the debate of last year was apparent in the proposed provision of better books. It was seen that the art of reading could be better taught by books conveying progressive knowledge, instead of what were now condemned by the Vice President himself as foolish tales and miserable commonplace scrap-books. The whole draft showed a liberal and earnest intention to improve our national education.
  After a few words from Lord BRAYE, the subject dropped.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Seven of the clock, during pleasure.
  House resumed at five minutes past Four of the clock, A.M.
  The Lord THURLOW—Chosen Speaker in the absence of The LORD CHANCELLOR and The LORD COMMISSIONER.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with several of the amendments agreed to, several agreed to with amendments, and with consequential amendments to the Bill, and several disagreed to, with reasons for such disagreement. The said amendments and reasons to be printed, and to be considered To-morrow. (No 211.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Four o'clock A.M., till a quarter before Five o'clock