§ Clause 7 (Determination by court of rent of present tenancies).
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved, in page 8, lines 15 and 16, to leave out the words (" after having demanded from such tenant an increase of rent.") He did not think that such a demand should be a condition of the landlord's access to the Court. He thought it hardly required argument to show that the landlord and tenant should have equal access to the Court, and, when there, be treated on equal terms. He was again obliged to think that there was some especial grandeur 805 attaching to the landlord who increased his rent, for it was only those who should have increased their rent who would have access to the Court. Could he conceive himself selecting any class of landlords, or any special disabilities, he should be rather inclined to lean against landlords who increased their rents. But such was not the view of the wise men who ruled them. He would have justified his opinion to the House and attempted to demolish the arguments of the Government if they had condescended to give the slightest reason for the abnormal limitation of the provision under consideration. As matters stood, however, he would simply propose that landlords and tenants, like all other subjects of Her Majesty, should be placed upon the same level with regard to their rights of access to Courts of Justice; and with that view he begged to move that the words ("after having demanded from such tenant an increase of rent, which the tenant has declined to accept,") be removed from the Bill.
§ LORD CARLINGFORDexplained the reason of the limitation to which the noble Marquess objected was a desire to induce the parties, if possible, to settle their affairs out of Court. If a landlord should wish to increase his rent, and should not be influenced by the desire of keeping out of Court to come to an agreement with his tenant, he would not be prejudiced by the limitation provided in the clause. He could not accept the Amendment.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that he could see no reason, nor had he heard any, for placing a landlord who had not raised his rent in a less advantageous position than a landlord who had raised his rent.
§ EARL CAIRNSasked what a landlord was to do who desired to have recourse to the Court for some other purpose than that of raising his rents?
THE LORD CHANCELLORasked for what conceivable purpose could the landlord be disposed to go to the Court if he did not want to increase the rent? He would not go to the Court to get the rent reduced. If the tenant did not want to go to the Court to get the rent reduced, he would assuredly not go to get it increased. The motive for putting the clause in its present form was that it indicated that if the landlord did wish his rent increased, the better course for him would be to propose the increase he 806 thought right, and then, if he and his tenants could not agree, to go to the Court.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he did not think the Amendment very material; but he thought the landlord who desired to protect himself ought to have the opportunity afforded him of going to the Court, even though he had never entertained the idea of raising his rent. He might wish to sell his estate, and to be able to state the amount of the rental as it would stand in future.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLpointed out there was another occasion when a landlord might wish to go to the Court, and that was when he was denounced by the Land League as a rack-renter. It was well known that over and over again professional agitators had gone about denouncing certain landlords as rack-renters; and tenants, as an excuse for non-payment of their rent, said they were coerced by the Land League. Therefore, he could conceive the landlord wishing to go to the Court to prove before a judicial authority that he was not a rack-renter. He could not conceive why the Government should debar him from doing that.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, the obvious reason for the limitation in this clause was that the Government, as he understood it, considered that the Court was a necessary evil. They wished to encourage recourse to it as little as possible. He hoped the Government would stand by the words of the Bill.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he could not admit that the provision in the clause was unreasonable. In the present relations of landlords and tenants in Ireland it was a matter of doubtful policy to encourage the landlords to go to the Court when they did not require an increase of rent, and bring their tenants—generally poorer men than themselves—into Court.
§ Amendment agreed, to.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved, in page 8, lines 20 and 21, to leave out the words (" and having regard to the interest of the landlord and tenant respectively.") They had been embarrassed frequently in dealing with this Bill by finding, from time to time, strange phrases, wholly unintelligible or useless in the position in which they were placed. They had never hitherto been able to obtain from the Government any clear 807 or satisfactory account of these curious fragments occurring in various parts of the Bill; and they were compelled, therefore, to conclude that they were really the seed-bed in which legislation by inadvertence grew up—that they were planted there with a purpose—not with a purpose, but an accidental intention—of creating in future time some right for some favoured class at the cost of some other class The words he had quoted furnished an illustration. They were one of the wandering fragments to which he had referred. If the Court was not composed of dishonest men, why should they be told that they were to consider the interests of the parties before them? It was like telling a Judge and jury to consider the interests of the plaintiff and defendant respectively. This curious phrase was much more like the end of a lame peroration in some speech than the wording of a sober clause in a grave and important Act of Parliament. Then, it might be asked, why not leave it? Well, Courts of Law had an awkward tendency to imagine—it was very foolish of them—that when the Legislature said something it meant something; and if the meaning was not evident in the words, they would seek it by some mysterious juxtaposition, and strive to honour the Legislature by fixing a meaning to all the words they might use. They had every reason to believe, both from what generally took place in such cases, and from what they had heard from Ireland, that some meaning or other—and that a meaning rather advantageous to the tenant than the landlord—would be placed on this phrase by the Court. The words were either surplusage, or worse than surplusage. If surplusage, they had better not be retained; if worse, the sooner they were got rid of the better.
§ LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he did not know whether the noble Marquess attached much importance to this Amendment or not. It was true the words were not the words of the Government; they were introduced by the House of Commons. They did not make any substantial change. The Government looked upon them as nothing but a general instruction to the Court to give both parties a fair and impartial hearing. He did not see the cause for alarm.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, the words were not accepted until after a 808 good deal of consideration had been given to them. He knew that a good deal of suspicion attached to these words; but he could not conceive why. As originally proposed, the Government believing that the tenant was the weaker party, and required special protection, the Court was directed to consider his interest alone; but that was felt to be so unfair that this direction was extended to the interest of the landlord also.
§ EARL CAIRNSsaid, it was proposed to leave out the words altogether; but in the interest of the tenant the words were inserted as they now stood in the Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLORasked, was it not right that the Court should have regard to the interest of the tenant and to the interest of the landlord? The words would alleviate dissatisfaction among the smaller tenants in Ireland; and he thought their Lordships would act wisely in retaining them.
§ EARL CAIRNSsaid, the words in the clause were as full as could be desired without the words objected to.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, the Amendment was verbal and unnecessary, and he hoped it would not be agreed to.
THE EARL OF ANNESLEYsaid, that in Ulster the value of tenant right was often double the value of land; and if the Court had regard to the interests of landlord and tenant, as indicated by this fact, the landlord might be ruined.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that as the words were admitted to be surplusage, he was afraid he must divide the Committee.
§ On question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 93; Not-Contents 184: Majority 91.
811| CONTENTS. | |
| Selborne, L. (L. Chancellor.) | Dartrey, E. |
| Derby, E. | |
| Cleveland, D. | Fitzwilliam, E. |
| Devonshire, D. | Kimberley, E. |
| Grafton, D. | Minto, E. |
| Somerset, D. | Morley, E. |
| Northbrook, E. | |
| Westminster, D | Saint Germans, E. |
| Ailesbury, M. | Spencer, E. |
| Northampton, M. | Suffolk and Berkshire, E. |
| Airlie, E. | Sydney, E. |
| Camperdown, E. | Yarborough, E. |
| Canterbury, V. | Houghton, L. |
| Falmouth, V. | Kenmare, L. (E. Kenmare.) |
| Gordon, V. (E. Aberdeen.) | |
| Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl.) | |
| Leinster, V. (D. Leinster.) | |
| Lawrence, L. | |
| Powerscourt, V. | Leigh, L. |
| Sherbrooke, V. | Lismore, L. (V. Lismore.) |
| Torrington, V. | |
| Loftus, L. (M. Ely.) | |
| Exeter, L. Bp. | Lovat, L. |
| Lyttelton, L. | |
| Aberdare, L | Methuen, L. |
| Ampthill, L. | Monck, L. (V. Monck.) |
| Ashburton, L. | Moncreiff, L. |
| Belper, L. | Monson, L. [Teller.] |
| Blachford, L. | Monteagle of Brandon, L. |
| Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.) [Teller.] | |
| Napier, L. | |
| Braye, L. | O'Hagan, L. |
| Breadalbane, L. (E. Breadalbane.) | Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.) |
| Calthorpe, L. | Ramsay, L. (E. Dalhousie.) |
| Camoys, L. | |
| Carew, L. | Ribblesdale, L. |
| Carlingford, L. | Rosebery, L. (E. Rosebery.) |
| Carrington, L. | |
| Clermont, L. | Sandhurst, L. |
| Clifford of Chudleigh, L. | Saye and Sele, L. |
| Sefton, L.(E. Sefton.) | |
| Crewe, L. | Skene, L. (E. Fife.) |
| Dacre, L. | Somerton, L. (E. Normanton.) |
| De Freyne, L. | |
| De Mauley, L. | Strafford, L. (V. Enfield.) |
| Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.) | |
| Sudeley, L. | |
| Emly, L. | Suffield, L. |
| Ettrick, L. (L. Napier.) | Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll.) |
| Fingall, L. (E. Fingall.) | |
| Foley, L. | Thurlow, L. |
| Granard, L. (E. Granard.) | Vernon, L. |
| Waveney, L. | |
| Greville, L. | Wenlock, L. |
| Hare, L. (E. Listowel.) | Wolverton, L. |
| Hatherton, L. | Wrottesley, L. |
| NOT-CONTENTS. | |
| Beaufort, D. | Beauchamp, E. |
| Buckingham and Chandos, D. | Belmore, E. |
| Bradford, E. | |
| Leeds, D. | Brownlow, E. |
| Manchester, D. | Cadogan, E. |
| Marlborough, D. | Cairns, E. |
| Norfolk, D. | Caledon, E. |
| Northumberland, D. | Carnarvon, E. |
| Richmond, D. | Clonmell, E. |
| Sutherland, D. | Coventry, E. |
| Wellington, D. | Denbigh, E. |
| Devon, E. | |
| Abercorn, M. (D. Abercorn.) | Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queens berry.) |
| Abergavenny, M. | |
| Bristol, M. | Eldon, E. |
| Exeter, M. | Ellesmere, E. |
| Hertford, M. | Feversham, E. |
| Salisbury, M. | Gainsborough, E. |
| Winchester, M. | Haddington, E. |
| Hardwicke, E. | |
| Amherst, E. | Harewood, E. |
| Annesley, E. | Lanesborough, E. |
| Bandon, E. | Lathom, E. [Teller.,] |
| Bathurst, E. | Leven and Melville, E. |
| Lovelace, E. | Chelmsford, L. |
| Lytton, E. | Clements, L. (E. Leitrim.) |
| Macclesfield, E. | |
| Mansfield, E. | Clifton, L. (E. Darnley.) |
| Manvers, E. | |
| Mar and Kellie, E. | Clinton, L. |
| Morton, E. | Cloncurry, L. |
| Mount Edgcumbe, E. | Colchester, L. |
| Nelson, E. | Colville of Culross, L. |
| Onslow, E. | Crofton, L. |
| Pembroke and Montgomery, E. | De L'Isle and Dudley, L. |
| Powis, E. | de Ros, L. |
| Radnor, E. | Digby, L. |
| Ravensworth, E. | Dinevor, L. |
| Redesdale, E. | Donington, L. |
| Romney, E. | Dunsandle and Clanconal, L. |
| Rosse, E. | |
| Rosslyn, E. | Dunsany, L. |
| Sandwich, E. | Ellenborough, L. |
| Somers, E. | Elphinstone, L. |
| Sondes, E. | Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.) |
| Stanhope, E. | |
| Strange, E. (D. Athol.) | Gage, L. (V. Gage.) |
| Strathmore and Kinghorn, E. | Gormanston, L. (V. Gormanston.) |
| Verulam, E. | Grey de Radcliffe, L.(V. Grey de Wilton.) |
| Waldegrave, E. | |
| Zetland, E. | Harlech, L. |
| Hartismere, L.(L. Henniker.) | |
| Clancarty, V. (E. Clancarty.) | |
| Hay, L. (E. Kinnoul.) | |
| Combermere, V. | Heytesbury, L. |
| Cranbrook, V. | Howard de Walden, L. |
| Doneraile, V. | Hylton, L. |
| Gough, V. | Inchiquin, L. |
| Hardinge, V. | Kenlis, L. (M. Head fort.) |
| Hawarden, V. [Teller.] | |
| Hereford, V. | Ker, L. (M. Lothian.) |
| Hill, V. | Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.) |
| Hood, V. | Lamington, L. |
| Hutchinson, V. (E Donoughmore.) | Leconfield, L. |
| Londesborough, L. | |
| Lifford, V. | Lovel and Holland, L.(E. Egmont.) |
| Melville, V. | |
| Sidmouth, V. | Lyveden, L. |
| Templetown, V. | Manners, L. |
| Massy, L. | |
| St. Albans, L, Bp. | Monteagle, L. (M. Sligo.) |
| Abinger, L. | Moore, L. (M. Drogheda.) |
| Alington, L. | |
| Amherst, L. (V. Holmesdale.) | Northwick, L. |
| Norton, L. | |
| Annaly, L. | O'Neill, L. |
| Ardilaun, L. | Oranmore and Browne, L. |
| Arundell of Wardour, L. | |
| Ormathwaite, L. | |
| Ashford, L. (V. Bury.) | Ormonde, L. (M. Ormonde.) |
| Aveland, L. | |
| Bateman, L. | Penrhyn, L. |
| Beaumont, L. | Plunket, L. |
| Borthwick, L. | Poltimore, L. |
| Botreaux, L. (E. Loudown.) | Raglan, L. |
| Ranfurly, L. (E. Ranfurly.) | |
| Brabourne, L. | |
| Brancepetn, L. (V. Boyne.) | Rayleigh, L. |
| Rodney, L. | |
| Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.) | Rowton, L. |
| Sackville, L. | |
| Carysfort, L. (E. Carysfort.) | Saltersford, L.(E. Courtown.) |
| Castlemaine, L. | Saltoun, L. |
| Sandys, L. | Templemore, L. |
| Scarsdale, L. | Tollemache, L. |
| Shute, L. (V. Barrington.) | Tredegar, L. |
| Trevor, L. | |
| Somerhill, L. (M. Clanricarde.) | Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford.) |
| Stanley of Alderley, L. | Ventry, L. |
| Stewart of Garlies, L.(E. Galloway.) | Vivian, L. |
| Wentworth, L. | |
| Stratheden and Campbell, L. | Westbury, L. |
| Willoughby de Broke, L. | |
| Strathnairn, L. | |
| Strathspey, L. (E. Seafield.) | Wimborne, L. |
| Windsor, L. | |
| Talbot de Malahide, L. | Wynford, L. |
THE EARL OF PEMBROKEmoved, in page 8, line 23, after ("rent,") to insert—
("Provided always, that where application is made to the court under this section in respect of any tenancy, and the court is of opinion that the tenant of the holding in which such tenancy subsists, or his predecessors in title, has or have caused or suffered such holding to become deteriorated, contrary to the express or implied conditions constituting the contract of tenancy, the court may refuse the application, or may postpone the further hearing of the same until after the performance by the tenant of such conditions as the court may think proper.")He said, that this Amendment was a very important one. Its object was to prevent the deterioration of the holding. One of the greatest dangers which would arise under the Act was that it would hold out a strong temptation to the tenant to allow his farm to get into a bad condition during the last year, with the view of obtaining a lower rent for the next 15 years. The Irish landlords had a right to demand that they should be protected against that kind of thing. He doubted whether, as the Bill stood, the Court would hold that such conduct was "unreasonable" within the meaning of the "equities" clause, and would, on that ground, refuse a statutory term. The Amendment was the outcome of persons who had thoroughly considered the subject. It would be a wise and fair way of meeting a difficulty, and no honest tenant in Ireland need fear anything whatever from it.
§ LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, that such a case as was contemplated in the Amendment would be prevented by Clause 8, which provided that where the Court was of opinion that the conduct of either landlord or tenant had been unreasonable, the Court might refuse the application or accede to it, subject to certain conditions.
§ Amendment agreed to.
812LORD VENTRYmoved, in page 8, line 23, after ("rent,") insert—
("Provided always, that the court shall not entertain an application made under this section by any tenant who owes more than one-half year's rent until satisfied that such tenant has tendered to his landlord within one year previous to his making such application a sum or sums equivalent to one year's rent of his holding.")
§ LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, the Amendment was inconsistent with the intentions and with some of the provisions of the Bill.
LORD VENTRYpointed out that the Amendment ran on the same lines as the clause relating to arrears of rent.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEmoved, in sub-section 3, which provides that where the judicial rent of any present tenancy has been fixed by the Court such present tenancy shall be deemed to be a tenancy subject to statutory conditions, to leave the following words out:—
("With this modification, that, during the statutory term in a present tenancy consequent on the first determination of a judicial rent of that tenancy by the court, application by the landlord to authorise the resumption of the holding or part thereof by him for some purpose having relation to the good of the holding or of the estate, shall not be entertained by the court, subject nevertheless to the provisions in this Act contained for the benefit of labourers in respect of cottages, gardens, or allotments. Provided also, that such application for resumption may be entertained by the court, if it is satisfied that before the passing of this Act the reversion expectant on the determination of a lease of the holding was purchased by the landlord or his predecessors in title with a view of letting or otherwise disposing of the land for building purposes on the determination of such lease, and that it is bonâ fide required by him for such purpose.")He remarked that he could discover no reason for drawing this distinction between the first statutory term of 15 years and a subsequent term.
§ LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he could not consent to the Amendment. The Government thought it of great importance that every tenant in Ireland should feel that he had it in his power to obtain a fixed term of at least 15 years, not liable to the chances of resumption by the landlord.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLwas entirely at a loss to understand what object the Government had in putting so heavy a 813 penalty upon landlords as that proposed by the 3rd sub-section of the clause.
§ THE MARQUESS OP SALISBURYremarked, that the object of the Government was to show the tenantry of Ireland that they were extremely zealous in punishing the Irish landlord; and the 3rd sub-section, which the Government wished to retain, was an example of their zeal in that direction.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, the object of the clause was of the greatest importance in the estimation of the Government. Its object was to give the tenants of Ireland 15 years' rest; and if the noble Marquess thought that a laughing matter, those who were responsible for the government of the country took a different view. He might remind the Committee that nearly all their Lordships were landlords. They might not agree with many of the tenants' ideas on the subject—and he certainly did not agree with them all—but it was unreasonable to think that because their Lordships held certain views that they were to dominate entirely over the opinions of all 'who were concerned in a settlement of this question. He warned their Lordships from looking at the matter in such a light; and as there was an obvious reason why Ireland should have a respite from disturbance for 15 years, he hoped their Lordships would not resist the retention of the words proposed to be omitted.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he quite understood the object of the Government. But the unrest of Ireland was not due to the inequality of the laws, for the Prime Minister himself had said that the laws of Ireland were more favourable to the tenant than those of any other country. The unrest was caused by the false doctrines which had been preached in Ireland, and which had been encouraged by the language of Ministers. It was most important that this privilege should be left to the owners of land for the good of the country. He could not support the Amendment, because he did not think it fair and just, and he wanted nothing to be given to the landlord that was not fair and just.
THE EARL OF ANNESLEYasked, how it was possible to expect to obtain a respite from the agitation existing in Ireland if they refused such an Amendment 814 as this, which would prevent landlords from having the power of doing good to the country when they wished?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he would be exceedingly glad to believe that there would be a respite to agitation. Nothing would be more gratifying to all of them, and it was simply to bring about that result that the clause was framed. They felt that, as landlords, it was necessary that they should make some little sacrifice to avoid friction as far as possible. They therefore thought it well to postpone for a time the exercise of those privileges of the landlord, which, though in themselves reasonable, might cause great harm if too freely exercised.
§ EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that, for the first time, he would vote with the Government. There was a good deal in the reasons they had given; but there was no justice in the course they proposed to take. He was afraid that the Government were too hopeful in thinking that there would be a respite of agitation.
§ On question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 77; Not-Contents 195: Majority 118.
816| CONTENTS. | |
| Selborne, L. (L. Chancellor.) | Aberdare, L. |
| Ampthill, L. | |
| Ashburton, L. | |
| Devonshire, D. | Belper, L. |
| Westminster, D. | Blachford, L. |
| Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.) [Teller.] | |
| Ailesbury.M. | |
| Northampton,M. | Breadalbane, L. (E. Breadalbane.) |
| Derby, E. | Calthorpe, L. |
| Durham, E. | Camoys, L. |
| Fitzwilliam, E. | Carew, L. |
| Fortescue, E. | Carlingford, L. |
| Kimberley, E. | Carrington, L. |
| Minto, E. | Clermont, L. |
| Morley, E. | Clifford of Chudleigh, L. |
| Northbrook, E. | |
| Saint Germans, E. | Crewe, L. |
| Spencer, E. | Dacre, L. |
| Sydney, E. | De Mauley, L. |
| Yarborough, E. | Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.) |
| Falmouth,V. | Emly, L. |
| Gordon,V.(E. Aberdeen.) | Ettrick,L.(L. Napier.) |
| Fingall,L.(E. Fingall.) | |
| Leinster, V.(D.Leinster.) | Foley, L. |
| Granard, L.(E. Granard.)- | |
| Powerscourt, V. | |
| Torrington,V. | Hare, L.(E. Listowel.) |
| Kenmare, L.(E. Kenmare.) | |
| Exeter, L. Bp. |
| Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl.) | Rosebery, L. (E. Rosebery.) |
| Lawrence, L. | Sandhurst, L. |
| Leigh, L. | Sandys, L. |
| Loftus, L. (M. Ely.) | Saye and Sele, L. |
| Lyttelton, L. | Sefton, L. (E. Sefton.) |
| Methuen, L. | Skene, L. (E. Fife.) |
| Monck, L. (V. Monck.) | Strafford, L. (V. En- field.) |
| Monson, L. [Teller.] | |
| Monteagle of Brandon, L. | Sudeley, L. |
| Suffield, L. | |
| O'Hagan, L. | Thurlow, L. |
| Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.) | Waveney, L. |
| Wenlock, L. | |
| Ramsay, L. (E. Dalhousie.) | Wolverton, L. |
| Wrottesley, L. | |
| Ribblesdale, L. |
| NOT-CONTENTS. | |
| Beaufort, D. | Ilchester, E. |
| Buckingham and Chandos, D. | Jersey, E. |
| Lanesborough, E. | |
| Grafton, D. | Lathom, E. [Teller.] |
| Leeds, D. | Leven and Melville, E. |
| Manchester, D. | Lovelace, E. |
| Marlhorough, D. | Lytton, E. |
| Norfolk, D. | Macclesfield, E. |
| Northumberland, D. | Mansfield, E. |
| Portland, D. | Manvers, E. |
| Richmond, D. | Mar and Kellie, E. |
| Somerset, D. | Morton, E. |
| Sutherland, D. | Mount Edgcumbe, E. |
| Wellington, D. | Nelson, E. |
| Onslow, E. | |
| Abercorn, M. (D. Abercorn.) | Pembroke and Mont- |
| gomery, E. | |
| Abergavenny, M. | Powis, E. |
| Bristol, M. | Radnor, E. |
| Exeter, M. | Ravensworth, E. |
| Hertford, M. | Redesdale, E. |
| Lansdowne, M. [Teller.] | Romney, E. |
| Salisbury, M. | Rosse, E. |
| Winchester, M. | Rosslyn, E. |
| Somers, E. | |
| Airlie, E. | Sondes, E. |
| Amherst, E. | Stanhope, E. |
| Annesley, E. | Strange, E. (D. Athol.) |
| Bandon, E. | Strathmore and Kinghorn, E. |
| Bathurst, E. | |
| Beauchamp, E. | Suffolk and Berkshire, E. |
| Belmore, E. | |
| Bradford, E. | Verulam, E. |
| Brownlow, E. | Waldegrave, E. |
| Cadogan, E. | Winton, E. (E. Eglintoun.) |
| Cairns, E. | |
| Caledon, E. | Zetland, E. |
| Camperdown, E. | |
| Carnarvon, E. | Clancarty, V. (E. Clancarty.) |
| Clonmell, E. | |
| Coventry, E. | Combermere, V. |
| Denbigh, E. | Cranbrook, V. |
| Devon, E. | Doneraile, V. |
| Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.) | Gough, V. |
| Hardinge, V. | |
| Hawarden, V. | |
| Eldon, E. | Hereford, V. |
| Ellesmere, E. | Hill, V. |
| Feversham, E. | Hood, V. |
| Gainsborough, E. | Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.) |
| Haddington, E. | |
| Hardwicke, E. | Lifford, V. |
| Harewood, E. | Melville, V. |
| Sherbrooke, V. | Inchiquin, L. |
| Sidmouth, V. | Kenlis, L. (M. Headfort.) |
| Templetown, V. | |
| Ker, L. (M. Lothian.) | |
| St. Albans, L. Bp. | Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.) |
| Leconfield, L. | |
| Abinger, L. | Lovat, L. |
| Amherst, L. (V. Holmes-) | Lovel and Holland, L. |
| dale.) | (E. Egmont.) |
| Annaly, L. | Lyveden, L. |
| Ardilaun, L. | Manners, L. |
| Arundell of Wardour, L. | Massy, L. |
| Monteagle, L. (M. Sligo.) | |
| Ashford, L. (V. Bury.) | |
| Aveland, L. | Moore, L. (M. Drogheda.) |
| Balfour of Burleigh, L. | |
| Bateman, L. | Napier, L. |
| Beaumont, L. | Norton, L. |
| Borthwick, L. | O'Neill, L. |
| Botreaux, L. (E. Loudoun.) | Oranmore and Browne, L. |
| Brabourne, L. | Ormathwaite, L. |
| Brancepeth, L. (V. Boyne.) | Ormonde, L. (M. Ormonde.) |
| Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.) | Penrhyn, L. |
| Plunket, L. | |
| Carysfort, L. (E. Carysfort.) | Poltimore, L. |
| Raglan, L. | |
| Castlemaine, L. | Ranfurly, L. (E. Ranfurly.) |
| Chelmsford, L. | |
| Clements, L. (E. Leitrim.) | Rayleigh, L. |
| Rodney, L. | |
| Clifton, L. (E. Darnley.) | Rowton, L. |
| Clinton, L. | Sackville, L. |
| Cloncurry, L. | Saltersford, L. (E.Courtown.) |
| Colchester, L. | |
| Colville of Culross, L. | Saltoun, L. |
| Cottesloe, L. | Scarsdale, L. |
| Crofton, L. | Shute, L. (V. Barrington.) |
| De Freyne, L. | |
| De L'Isle and Dudley, L. | Stanley of Alderley, L. |
| Stewart of Garlies, L.(E. Galloway.) | |
| de Ros, L. | |
| Digby, L. | Stratheden and Campbell, L. |
| Dinevor, L. | |
| Donington, L. | Strathnairn, L. |
| Dunsandle and Clanconal, L. | Strathspey, L. (E. Seafield.) |
| Dunsany, L. | Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll.) |
| Ellenborough, L. | |
| Elphinstone, L. | Talbot de Malahide, L. |
| Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.) | Templemore, L. |
| Tollemache, L. | |
| Gage, L. (V. Gage.) | Tredegar, L. |
| Gormanston, L. (V. Gormanston.) | Trevor, L. |
| Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford.) | |
| Grey de Radcliffe, L. (V. Grey de Wilton.) | |
| Ventry, L. | |
| Harlech, L. | Vernon, L. |
| Hartismere, L. (L. Henniker. | Wentworth, L. |
| Westbury, L. | |
| Hatherton, L. | Willoughby de Broke, L. |
| Hay, L. (E. Kinnoul.) | |
| Heytesbury, L. | Wimborne, L. |
| Howard de Walden, L. | Windsor, L. |
| Hylton, L. | Wynford, L. |
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the Amendment he now had to move was complementary to one which had been already accepted. Its object was to carry further the exception made 817 with regard to English-managed estates. By the Amendment made in the 1st clause, it was decided that free sale should not exist upon English-managed estates, and the Amendment which he was now about to propose would exempt such estates from application to the Court to fix a judicial rent. It was unnecessary to argue at length in favour of this exemption. For many years a great deal of money had been expended in bringing those estates up to the level of English estates, and unless this exception was made, such efforts would be discouraged. He begged to move in page 9, line 14, to leave out (" may if it think fit") in order to insert ("shall if the landlord so requires.")
§ LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he would be willing to accept the Amendment if the noble Marquess would consent to retain the words with regard to the improvements that they should be "substantially maintained."
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that, practically, the improvements were maintained by the landlord; but if the tenant occasionally cleared out a ditch, it might be alleged that the improvements were not substantially maintained by the landlord.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that the word "substantially" implied that the landlord in the main maintained the improvements.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLremarked, that in Scotland the tenant was under the obligation to maintain the improvements, subject to wear and tear. What he wanted to know was whether the word "substantial" was put in to give case to the Court in its interpretation of the clause, or whether, on the contrary, it was intended to make it more rigid?
§ LORD LECONFIELDobjected to the use of the word "substantial," on the ground that if it were employed the tenant might, under the clause, require the landlord to carry out any substantial repairs which were rendered necessary by the neglect of the former.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD CARLINGFORDmoved, in page 9, after sub-section (5.) insert as a separate sub-section—
("6.) Subject to rules made under this Act, the landlord and tenant of any present tenancy to which this Act applies, may, at any time if such tenancy is not subject to a statutory term, 818 or if the tenancy is subject to a statutory term, then may, during the last twelve months of such term, by writing under their hands, agree and declare what is then the fair rent of the holding; and such agreement and declaration on being filed in court in the prescribed manner, shall have the same effect and consequences in all respects as if the rent so agreed on were a judicial rent fixed by the court under the provisions of this Act.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYexpressed approval of the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
LORD INCHIQUINmoved to insert, in page 9, line 39, after the word ("term,")—
("Provided, that nothing in this section shall apply in the case of any tenancy in a holding the rent payable in respect of which amounts to or exceeds one hundred pounds.")
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, the Amendment of the noble Lord was one of the greatest importance, and he had looked forward to its being pressed in their Lordships' House. His interest in it was the greater because it was moved by a near Relative of his in "another place," where it received a large amount of independent support. The arguments brought forward in support of it appeared to him to be unanswerable. On the one hand, it affected only a very small number of tenants, and on the other it recognized a principle upon which, till now, they had always insisted—the principle that these large tenants were men perfectly able to protect their own interests and not requiring the protection of exceptional legislation. They could not, however, consider the proposal on its merits alone. When it was made in "another place" it encountered the strenuous opposition of the Prime Minister, who founded his opposition on the statement that if the Amendment were agreed to, and these 12,000 tenants excepted from the benefit of this clause, there would remain in Ireland a focus round which the discontent of the future would centre, and which would prevent the Bill from having the good effect which he anticipated for it. These words were, no doubt, weighed by the Prime Minister, and it was their Lordships' duty to weigh them also. They must look forward to the events with which they were likely to be brought face to face during the coming winter. He could see no reason for anticipating that this Bill would 819 allay the agitation now prevalent in Ireland. Already there were sinister indications that that agitation was likely to be renewed in a shape not less dangerous than that which it had hitherto assumed. Under these circumstances, what would happen if this Amendment were insisted on? The agitation would continue, and they would be told that it was attributable to the alteration made in the Bill by their Lordships. They had already had some experience of the manner in which the House of Lords "mutilations" had been misrepresented, and they might depend upon it that in this case the agitation would be justified as a legitimate protest against their Lordships' action. There was another reason which induced him to think that this Amendment might be dispensed with. They had already inserted in the Bill provisions dealing specially with holdings which had been improved by the landlords, and in a later part of the measure an Amendment would be moved dealing with the question of leases. Both of these Amendments would principally affect the larger holders, whom the noble Lord wished to exclude. Under these circumstances, he ventured to ask his noble Friend whether the inconvenience which might arise from the acceptance of his Amendment might not outweigh any advantages to be derived from it by the landlords?
§ THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDhoped his noble Friend would withdraw his Amendment. If the line were to be drawn anywhere it ought to be at £20; but it was the larger tenants whose number it was desirable to increase, and to agree to the Amendment would be to discourage men from taking or buying holdings of £100 in value.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he was disposed to join in the appeal made to the noble Lord. If the Amendment were inserted the tenants to whom it applied would think after the language of the Prime Minister that the vote of the House was specially levelled against them. The advantage to the landlords would be very slight, and would not compensate for the discontent and disaffection which it would excite.
§ LORD CARLINGFORDheartily concurred in what had been said against the Amendment. The tenants against 820 whom it was directed were the very men whom the Government wished to protect, for they were the tenants who were most ready to make their own improvements, and the effect of the Amendment would be to discourage them from laying out any of their capital on their holdings.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
LORD VENTRYmoved, in page 9, line 39, after ("term") insert—
("Provided that if the tenant has not before the expiration of the statutory term paid and satisfied the rent payable during the same a further statutory term shall not commence, and the tenant shall become a future tenant.")
§ LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he could not accept the Amendment.
§ THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ House resumed; and to be again in Committee To-morrow.