Lords Sitting of 2 September 1880

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Expiring Laws Continuance٭(218).
Second Reading—Irish (Relief of Distress) Loans Amendment (207); Mulkear Drainage District٭(212).
Committee—Report—Assaults on Young Persons (213–216).
Third Reading— Savings Banks (No. 1)٭(205); Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Grain)٭(203); Ground Game (211), and passed.

AFGHANISTAN (MILITARY OPERATIONS)—LATEST TELEGRAMS.
VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked whether Her Majesty's Government had received any further intelligence relating to General Roberts's march on Candahar?
VISCOUNT ENFIELD: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have received the following telegram from the Viceroy of India, dated 1st September:—
"News from Roberts to 29th. Reports arrival of his force at Shahr-i-Safa, 27th, and Robat 28th. At former place received following account from St. John of raising of siege:—
"'Rumours of approach of your force relieved city from investment on night of 23rd; villages east and south were abandoned 24th. Ayoob struck camp and marched to position on Argandab, about ten miles north of city. He has about 4,000 regulars, six 12-pounders and two 9-poundcrs rifled, four 6-pounders, S.B. batteries, one 4-pounder battery, 2,000 horse, and twice that number of Ghazis, of whom one-third have fire arms. He will, I think, make northward into Khakrez.'
"St. John joined Roberts at Robat, and reports thence 28th. Herati troops signified intention of retreating to Khakrez, but have been dissuaded and shorn on Koran to fight. Roberts telegraphs 29th, intends to reach Candahar 31st,

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and attack Ayoob next day. Ayoob is reported to have intrenched his camp, and to mean fighting, being compelled by Musa Jan's party, who, accompanied by Hashim Khan, have joined him. Ayoob has written apologetic letter to Roberts, saying he was forced to fight. Has been told he must give up prisoners and submit unconditionally. Sick rate Roberts's force continues moderate. Phayre left Chaman last night for Candahar with whole force collected, as he expects opposition at Takht-i-Pul. Rear brigade of force returning from Cabul arrives at Dakka to-day. Cabul reports at Peiwar Kotal say all well there. Ameer assiduous in conducting public business in person. Trade reviving, and goods arriving from Jellalabad."
LORD ELLENBOROUGHasked whether Her Majesty's Government had yet received an accurate list of the officers killed and wounded in the recent actions in Afghanistan?
VISCOUNT ENFIELDreplied, that the information asked for had not yet been received by Her Majesty's Government.

IRISH (RELIEF OF DISTRESS) LOANS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 207.)
(The Lord President.)
IRISH (RELIEF OF DISTRESS) LOANS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 207.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª"—(The Lord President.)
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he had no objection to the passing of this Bill, as it really was a Money Bill, and no objection was ever taken by their Lordships' House to Money Bills on account of the lateness of the period of the Session at which they came up from the House of Commons. Their Lordships might remember that a few years ago there was an Order which used to be moved to the effect that after a certain day no Bill should be received from the other House of Parliament unless it was urgent or a Money Bill; but with regard to the Registration of Voters (Ireland) Bill to which he yesterday took a course which had been strongly objected to, it was not urgent and it was not a Money Bill. It had been said that the Bill was merely intended to equalize the law as it related to England and Ireland; but this was not exactly the case, as the measure embodied proposals which were not contained in the English law. He must also remind their Lordships that the Bill
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  contained one point which their Lordships had rejected so far back as 1873. That being so, he thought the House was justified in rejecting a measure which, at that late period of the Session, they had not the time to thoroughly consider. The Government had urged yesterday, as a reason for passing this Bill, that they ought to do so because it was an Irish Bill; but he said there was no reason why an Irish Bill should receive different treatment in that House from an English Bill or any other Bill. They had been too much in the habit of dealing with Ireland as if she had a number of real grievances, and that mode of treatment had increased the belief that Ireland was a much injured country. During the whole of this Session they had had nothing but Irish Bills for the relief of the Irish distress and other measures for the good of that country, and to say that the House of Lords would not consider measures which were proposed for the good of Ireland was utterly and entirely false and beside the subject. With regard to the rejection of the Registration of Voters (Ireland) Bill, he would ask leave to mention that, upon the very occasion upon which their Lordships came to the conclusion to throw out that Bill, there was a Notice of Motion lying upon the Table of the House of Commons to the effect that it was no longer just or expedient that all measures improving the condition of the people of England, Ireland, and Scotland should be at the mercy of a body of legislators who were hereditary and irresponsible. There never was a more insulting Motion put on the Table of one House of Parliament as directed against the other.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the noble Earl appeared to him to be going against every principle of Order in that House. He was discussing a Motion which he most unfortunately induced the House to pass yesterday, and adding to that remarks upon a Motion which which had been considered in another House.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he was not discussing yesterday's proceedings, but was simply making an explanation. He had been strongly attacked for the course which he pursued, and was simply offering an explanation of his conduct. If that House were to have all sorts of charges

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  brought against it because it exercised its independent judgment, it was time to take notice of, and express an opinion upon such a course. The great charge brought against their Lordships' House was that it had rejected the Compensation for Disturbance (Ireland) Bill; but charges of that kind ought not to prevent their Lordships from acting as they felt they ought to do.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the course of the noble Lord was certainly irregular; but it was natural that he should wish to defend the step which he took yesterday, and which had been universally condemned. Lord Beaconsfield certainly voted with the noble Earl; but it would be interesting to know whether he counselled the course that was taken, inasmuch as it was a proceeding entirely opposed to the wise advice which Lord Beaconsfield gave a few days before in reference to another Bill. The noble Lord had defended his course because there had been once a Sessional Order of their Lordships' House against proceeding with any measure sent up from the other House after a certain date unless it was connected with finance, or was in some other respect of an urgent character. He (Earl Granville) perfectly well remembered the Order which used to be proposed by the noble Lord himself; but it was at last found that the Order was constantly broken down, and was generously so inconvenient in practice that the noble Lord himself gave up moving that Order. That argument, therefore, was of no avail. The noble Earl said that he wished Irish Bills to be treated exactly as English Bills were treated. That was exactly what he (Earl Granville) wished; but he thought it conveyed a very unfortunate impression to the people of Ireland that a Bill should now be rejected, the principle of which was admitted to be unobjectionable, and the first object of which was to assimilate the Irish law to that of England. It was much to be regretted that three Bills relating to Ireland should in succession have been rejected. He had to thank the noble Earl that he was not going to the extreme point of stopping even financial Bills which came up to their Lordships' House.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

GROUND GAME BILL.— [No. 211.]
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
Bill read 3ª (according to order) with the Amendments.
On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"
VISCOUNT HARDINGEmoved to omit in Clause 1 the words "ground game," in order to insert the word "hares," as he thought there should be a close time for hares, but not for rabbits. When the Amendment was originally moved by the noble Earl rabbits were not included, so that it appeared to be an afterthought altering the terms of the Amendment. The only argument in favour of a close time for rabbits was the assertion that shooting them all the year round would disturb the hedgerows at a time when the winged game were on their nests. He thought such apprehensions were exaggerated; owners of land must trust to the good will of their tenants, and he believed the latter would not annoy the owners in the way assumed. If rabbits were allowed to get to a head, it was most difficult in certain soils to keep them down. The Bill was a Bill for the protection of the tenant's crops, and this Amendment, as far as rabbits were concerned, was antagonistic to the Preamble, rabbits being the only animals most hurtful to the crops. Hares were in a different category; they could at any time be totally exterminated, and as hare hunting and coursing were popular, it would not be a grievance if a certain amount of protection were granted to them.
Amendment moved, in page 2, line 11, leave out ("ground game") and insert ("hares").—(The Viscount Hardinge.)
THE EARL OF GALLOWAY,while wishing as strongly as any other noble Lord to see rabbits kept down, thought it scarcely fair to move this Amendment at the very last stage of the Bill, after many noble Lords had left London in the belief that the questions raised in the measure were all settled. It was shown on the former occasion what would be the effect if farmers were allowed to set snares during the breeding time. It would lead to the extermination of winged game as well as hares.
LORD DENMANsaid, he would protest against the passing of this Bill.
THE EARL OF ILCHESTERobserved that if there was to be a close time for hares, it ought to be made illegal for either landlord or tenant to kill hares during that period. He hoped the Amendment would not be accepted; if it was it would supersede the Amendment which was agreed to on his Motion the other evening. If there were any amendment of this sort made it should be done in reference to the Game Laws. The noble Earl who had charge of the Bill said the other evening that his speech was an insidious one; but he hoped that his remarks were made in a straightforward manner. If they were insidious, it was because they were brought into contact with an insidious Bill. He objected to a close time for rabbits, as he thought it would be most injurious to the country. He would be glad to see a close time for winged game.
LORD VIVIANthought their Lordships would be wise in accepting the Amendment. Rabbits were such vermin that he should like to see them exterminated.
LORD BATEMANsaid, he was heartily sick of hares and rabbits, and wished they were all exterminated. If their Lordships devoted themselves to amending their own Amendments, they would never see an end of the Bill. He should not support the Amendment.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY,in reference to the observations of his noble Friend near him (Lord Ilchester), desired to say that he meant nothing personal by using the word insidious, but he used it reference to his Amendment, which was moved for the protection of winged game, and had the effect of giving a close time to hares and rabbits. He (the Earl of Kimberley) had every wish to accept the Amendment of the noble Viscount, as it would diminish his dislike to the original Amendment carried the other evening; but, at the same time, he thought it right to remind their Lordships that a proviso giving a close time to hares as contradistinguished from rabbits, had been defeated in the House of Commons by the largest majority out of all the divisions that had taken place in reference to this Bill. Among those who voted against it were several loading Members of the Conservative Party, such as Lord
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Percy, Lord Newport, Mr. Beresford Hope, Mr. Chaplin, Mr. Wilbraham. Egerton, Mr. Birkbeck, Mr. Knight, and Mr. Biddell, so that there was every probability that the clause would be restored when the Bill went back to the House of Commons. If, however, their Lordships should think proper to accept this Amendment the Government would not stand in the way of that being done.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAMsaid, that hares and rabbits were very much used as food in the great manufacturing towns, and if their were no close time the supply must fall off. The Bill as it stood originally would lead to an extermination of ground game. He believed that the farmers were by no means in favour of hares and rabbits being destroyed. No fewer than 40,000,000 hares and rabbits were sold annually, representing a money value of about £4,000,000 sterling. Under these circumstances he should oppose the Amendment.
LORD ZOUCHEthought they would be stultifying themselves if they accepted the Amendment. He could not support it if it were pressed to a Division.
Amendment negatived.
Motion, "That the Bill do pass," agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

ASSAULTS ON YOUNG PERSONS BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
ASSAULTS ON YOUNG PERSONS BILL.

  (NO. 213.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  Bill reported without amendment.
  On the Motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, the age at which consent could be given was raised from 12 to 13.
  LORD LAMINGTONasked why the Bill did not extend to Scotland?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he understood the law of Scotland was already what it ought to be.
  Bill to be read 3ª To-morrow; and to be printed as amended. (No. 216.)

GLOUCESTER ELECTION—CANTERBURY ELECTION—CHESTER ELECTION—MACCLESFIELD ELECTION—KNARESBOROUGH ELECTION—BOSTON ELECTION—OXFORD ELECTION—SANDWICH ELECTION.
Moved to agree with the Commons in the Addresses to Her Majesty, and to fill up the blanks with ("Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and"), agreed to (The Lord Chancellor); and a message sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them that the Lords have agreed to the said Addresses, and have filled up the blanks: The Lord Steward and the Lord Chamberlain to present the Addresses on the part of this House: The Lord Steward to learn Her Majesty's pleasure concerning the presentation of the said Addresses.
House adjourned during pleasure; and resumed by the Earl Redesdale.

SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU CAMPAIGN—MILITARY ORGANIZATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNrose, according to Notice, to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to Lord Chelmsford's statement in the House of the evening of the 19th August, 1880, as compared with his despatch dated Pietermaritzburg, 27th January 1879, on the Isandlana disaster; and to ask Her Majesty's Government to place on the Table of the House further Papers on the question if they are in possession of information differing from the despatch quoted, together with a map (with proper scale of distances) of the ground on which the Headquarter Camp was pitched, and of the hills above and near it; and to submit certain mistakes in the operations in Zululand; and also to move for a Return of the ages and length of service of the soldiers and non-commissioned officers of the 1st and 2nd Battalion of the 24th Regiment. The noble and gallant Lord said, that in his Notice he called the attention of Her Majesty's Government to Lord Chelmsford's despatch, dated Pietermaritzburg, January 27, 1879, as compared with his speech of the 19th of last month, which elicited cheers from some of their Lordships. But in the despatch it was said of the 24th Regiment:—
  "So long as they kept their faces to the Zulus the enemy could not drive them back, and they feel in heaps before the deadly fire poured into them. But when the Zulus got round the left flank of these brave men they appear to have
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  lost their presence of mind, and to have retired hastily through the tents, when immediately the whole Zulu force surrounded them, they were overpowered by numbers, and the camp was lost."
  The plain English of this was that they misbehaved before the enemy. But in his speech the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Chelmsford), reciting the same events, said—"What could they do more than they did, and that was to die like gallant soldiers?"
  LORD CHELMSFORDobserved, that the noble and gallant Lord was not reading his despatch, but some printed report; and if he was going to found any charge upon it he ought to quote from the actual words of the document.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he must leave the noble and gallant Lord to reconcile those two opposite statements, and would only observe that they were not calculated to promote devotion or discipline among soldiers. He proceeded to submit to their Lordships what, in his humble opinion, were mistakes in the operations in Zululand, and which, he thought, were amply sufficient to account for Isandlana and other mishaps. First, the columns invading Zululand were too far distant from one another for mutual support and communication, especially in so difficult and unknown a country as Zululand. For instance, Sir Evelyn Wood's, the fourth column, was 35 miles distant from Colonel Glyn's headquarter No. 3 column, and, consequently, the fourth column acted independently. The result of this was that 20,000 Zulus were enabled to pass through the interval and post themselves, on the 21st of January, unobserved, under the crest of the height commanding the left front of the camp at Isandlana, and fell like an avalanche on the left flank of the camp next day, the fatal 22nd. Of course, if this dangerous ground had been properly reconnoitred, it was more than probable that that great calamity would never have occurred. Secondly, the position of the camp at Isandlana was commanded, as had been shown by an excellent authority, who had visited the spot. He said—
  "I spent many hours in examining the position of the camp, and I emphatically repeat that the camp is dominated by hills to the right and loft (a little to the right and left) rear which were within pistol-shot."
  There was a glacis sloping away from the front towards the open plain; but

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  what man in his senses could expect an enemy to advance over that when he could approach a flank under cover of a range of hills? Archibald Forbes, in his article in The Nineteenth Century, said something to this effect—"I challenge any soldier of experience to say whether any more inherently vicious position could have been chosen." He (Lord Strathnairn) certainly considered that any disinterested person who had sufficient military knowledge to entitle him to give an opinion at all must, after seeing the ground, entirely coincide with Mr. Forbes. Their Lordships had only to look at the map to be convinced of the justice of these views; and it was this hill-commanded camp which, by the orders of the Commander-in-Chief, was not to be left, but to be defended. If instead of that order he had previously directed that that camp, and all other camps in the line of operations, should be in safe positions to be fortified, either by intrenchments with obstacles or with waggon laagers, we should not have been the victims of surprises or defeats. Such as it was, the camp could only be defended from outside. Thirdly, reconnaissances should have been made of the position of the enemy above and round Isandlana to any extent. The Commander-in-Chief did reconnoitre the positions to the left front of the camp, but did not go far enough or thoroughly enough; for he stated that he saw a few Zulu horsemen, who could only have been an outpost or a patrol of the 20,000 men, and he should have done all he could to take these men or follow them, or, with a reconnaissance in force, to ascertain where their main body was. If he had done so, he would have ascertained the position of the 20,000 Zulus, and been enabled to counteract their dangerous flank manœuvre. He (Lord Strathnairn) had practical proof of the advantages of this reconnoitring in Syria and in India. Fourthly, the camp with all its contents should have been intrenched, as he had already said, with engineering obstacles to protect it, arrest the enemy's advance, and expose them to the scientific and deadly fire of the English artillery and infantry, Fifthly, the warning that the Zulus had shown themselves in force to the left front of the camp, given not only by the firing which was heard from the direction of the camp, but by messages re-
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  ceived by the noble and gallant Lord and officers under him from the officer commanding the camp—
  LORD CHELMSFORDasked the noble and gallant Lord to quote his authority for that statement, for it was the first he had heard of it. If the noble and gallant Lord quoted his authority the House would know what reliance was to be placed on that information. It was perfectly new to him.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he would not have made that statement to the House without authority. The noble and gallant Lord's own despatch stated that firing was heard, and that the noble and gallant Lord himself sent an aide-de-camp.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, the noble and gallant Lord was entirely mistaken, as he did not say anything of the kind in his despatch.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he was going to add that when this alarm had been heard, when messages had been received from the camp, and when the firing had been heard, the noble and gallant Lord should have caused the immediate return of the reconnaissance party to the camp, a distance of 9 or 10 miles, running two miles and walking one on the Prussian system of alarms. But, so far from that, a detachment with guns, under Colonel Harness, who had actually seen the combat and was marching to the camp, was ordered not to go there. He need hardly observe that under all the circumstances of the case which he had detailed, and which, he ventured to think, should certainly have occurred to the Commander-in-Chief, to leave the camp unintrenched, dominated by dangerous ground, and deprived of half its garrison, as seen by the watchful Zulus, was an invitation to the enemy to attack it. Sixthly, it would have been better not to have taken the lamented Colonel Durnford, so valuable an Engineer officer, from his special duties of superintending the fortifications of camps and of strongholds for ourselves. And it was only justice to that gallant officer's memory to represent that he had to cope with almost unexampled difficulties on taking over the defence of an indefensible camp against an enemy overwhelming in numbers, with remarkable military instinct, and holding positions insufficiently reconnoitred. The death of this gallant officer,

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  with some brave soldiers of the 24th Regiment, rivalling their brothers in arms at Rorke's Drift, some brave Natal Volunteers, and Native levies, while holding the important neck of land which covered the retreat to Rorke's Drift, was a fitting close of a life of devotion to the Service. While he lamented the dead, he was happy to notice the distinction that had been won by many officers who had played conspicuous parts in the campaign, among the most prominent of whom might be mentioned Sir Evelyn Wood and Colonel Buller. It was eight or nine years ago that he (Lord Strathnairn) drew their Lordships' attention, in a long speech on military education, to the disadvantages of the British system of mechanical drill without an object—that was, without the elementary or higher rules of strategy; and he had since never failed, at the cost of their Lordships' patience and indulgence, to press it upon the House. He would not, however, detain their Lordships any longer on that occasion, particularly as the Commander-in-Chief was not present, but would at once move for a Return of the ages and length of service of the soldiers and non-commissioned officers of the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 24th Regiment.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he had no doubt that the noble and gallant Lord who introduced this matter was actuated with a desire to forward the interests of the Public Service; but a discussion upon such a subject in their Lordships' House was, he thought, very much to be deprecated. Whatever might be the merits or demerits of the way in which the campaign was conducted, the campaign was over, and that was not the place for recording a calm and safe judgment on the matter. The plan of the General commanding had formed the subject of a military Court of Inquiry; and an aimless discussion of this sort was not only unfair to the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Chelmsford), but was also calculated to create a mistaken impression out-of-doors.
  LORD VIVIANobserved, that the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn) had not censured the noble and gallant Lord who had conducted the war in South Africa. The statement that had been made on another occasion had practically challenged the noble and gallant Lord to recur to the subject. He regretted, how-
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  ever, the difference that had arisen between the two noble and gallant Lords.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he could not but think that the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn), for whose military reputation he had great respect and admiration, had pursued an inconvenient and irregular course in again bringing this subject forward. The present Government, however, were not called upon to pronounce any opinion whatever on the matter. Eighteen months had elapsed since the events to which the Motion referred, and he looked upon the affair as entirely closed. The proper course for the noble and gallant Lord to have taken would have been to have brought the question before the House when the late Government, who had the whole circumstances within their knowledge, and who dealt with every circumstance as it arose, were in Office. Under the circumstances, Her Majesty's Government were not prepared, even if they had them, to produce any further Papers on the subject. They considered that the matter was entirely closed, and that there would be no advantage to the Public Service to produce Papers upon a vague Motion, directed to no practical and definite end. With regard to the Return asked for, such a Return was impossible, because the documents relating to the 24th Regiment were lost in the war. He regretted that the matter had been revived; and he deprecated any further discussion of a matter so technical, and which could not be adequately discussed in such an Assembly as this.
  LORD CHELMSFORDregretted that the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn) had not given any authority for the statements he had made regarding his (Lord Chelmsford's) conduct when in command of the South African Forces. The speech of the noble and gallant Lord had taken him completely by surprise; because he could not discover by the Notice of Motion that the noble and gallant Lord intended to reopen the questions that had so very recently been discussed by the House. When on a previous occasion he had endeavoured to give a full, true, and clear account of the Isandlana disaster, his narrative had been based, not upon information exclusively possessed by himself, but upon the evidence of eyewitnesses, whoso statements had since been published in the newspapers. His

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  account had been taken from evidence published in The Times of March 17 and 22; and he now challenged the noble and gallant Lord to say whether all the details of his speech were not borne out by that evidence. The noble and gallant Lord had quoted authorities to whose words the House would probably not attach very great importance. The noble and gallant Lord had referred to the statement in an article by Mr. Archibald Forbes in The Nineteenth Century. But to show how fallacious some of the statements were, he need only point out the inaccuracy of the story related in reference to Colonel Harness. Colonel Harness had himself referred to the incident in an article in Frazer's Magazine, and had given quite a different account; and, as a matter of fact, the statement that he was in a position to afford relief to the camp was quite incorrect. He (Lord Chelmsford) was on his way to the camp—it must have been between 3 and half-past, the whole affair being over at 1 o'clock—when he saw Colonel Harness about 500 yards from him, moving off in the direction of the camp, being then 10 miles distant from Isandlana. Major Cosset, his aide-de-camp, asked him if he should go and stop the battery, and he said—"Yes; he could not understand why they were moving." And yet in the public prints there had been an accusation that Major, now Lieutenant Colonel, Gosset, prevented valuable reinforcements going on to the camp, and was almost accountable for the disaster. There was not a particle of truth in the story. Another important statement made by the noble and gallant Lord had reference to the number of messages which he asserted he had received from the camp on the day in question. In point of fact, he only received one message from the camp in the course of that day, which was that mentioned in his despatch, which had been sent to him at 8 o'clock in the morning, and which was received by him at 9.30, which merely gave the information that a body of the enemy had been noticed in a north-westerly direction. From half-past 9 o'clock until he reached the camp on his return not a single message, if any were despatched, had reached him. His statement on this point was fully corroborated by Lieutenant Colonel Croalock, his
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  Military Secretary, in his letter recently sent to a London newspaper, in which he gave a distinct denial to the story that several messages had been received. The noble and gallant Lord, in referring to his despatch, had declared that he had reflected upon the gallantry of the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 24th Regiment by stating that they had run away from the enemy. He had made no such reflection upon that gallant body of men. He wrote that despatch immediately after arriving in Pietermaritzburg, five days after the disaster. In it he stated that—
  "One company went off to the extreme left and has never heard of since, and the other five, I understand, engaged the enemy about a mile to the left front of the camp, and made there a most stubborn and gallant resistance."
  So anxious was he that the Government at home should receive a true and faithful account of what had occurred that he wrote the whole of the despatch with his own hand; but he must confess that, on calm consideration, he should have altered the the paragraph in it to which the noble and gallant Lord had referred, because it was, perhaps, capable of an interpretation which he had no idea would be placed upon it, and which he did not intend should be placed upon it. He much regretted that it had given pain in some quarters. He never intended that the smallest impression should be left on the minds of anyone that he reflected on the conduct of the 24th Regiment. The paragraph said—
  "When, however, the Zulus got round the left flank of these brave men, they appear to have lost their presence of mind, and returned hastily to the tents, that had never been struck."
  He would not have used the term "brave men" had he intended to have reflected upon their courage. What he had in his mind at the time he wrote that paragraph was that the men of the 24th Regiment, finding that the Zulus had worked round their flank, and that it was hopeless to remain where they were, had retired hastily with the view of taking up the stronger position which they should never have left. In his opinion, under the circumstances, it would have been better for them to have remained where they were, and to have fought it out on the spot without attempting to retire. They had been fighting an enemy outside their camp,

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  and it was hopeless for the poor fellows to expect to get back.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNasked if the men retired by the orders of their officers?
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that it was so stated in the evidence. They were ordered back to take up a final position under the hill, which they ought never to have left, and they endeavoured to do so. That was the reason they turned their backs to the enemy; not that they ran, or attempted to run. In self-defence, he was compelled to refer in detail to the six mistakes which it was alleged by the noble and gallant Lord had led to the disaster at Isandlana. In the first place, he denied that the invading columns were too far apart to render each other mutual support. A reference to the map would show that the position taken up by the columns, having regard to the long frontier line, was the only one that could be properly adopted. With reference to the position of the camp, he defied the noble and gallant Lord to show that the account he had given of its position was inaccurate in any particular. The map which had been placed in the Library of the House, and which accurately described the ground near Isandlana, corroborated that account. With regard to the charge that the ground occupied by the enemy on the day in question had not been sufficiently reconnoitred previously, as a matter of fact, it had been carefully reconnoitred on the day before without the Zulus being discovered. Lieutenant Browne, 24th Regiment, and a party of mounted Infantry, went out by his (Lord Chelmsford's) orders in the direction from which the Zulus advanced, and he must have passed close to the spot where they bivouacked that night. He saw, however, no traces of a large force, simply because they were not there till after dark that evening. On the morning of the attack the vedette was placed, as usual, three miles in advance; and he gave notice of the approach of the enemy long before the actual attack was made, and which, therefore, could not be characterized as a surprise. The enemy did not advance from the direction of the mountains to the north of Isandlana; but from the eastward two of their columns, however, moved along the top of these mountains and came down upon the camp that way. In reference to
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  the statement that the camp should have been intrenched, he had already stated that the ground in the neighbourhood of the camp was so rocky that it was absolutely impossible to make even shelter-trenches round the tents. When the party subsequently came to bury the poor men who had fallen in the battle, they found it almost impossible to dig a shallow grave, owing to the small amount of earth. Nor were there any trees with which to make abattis. The troops had, in fact, to carry their fuel with them. With regard to the assertion that on receiving the message that the camp was attacked, he should at once have returned with his force to its assistance, he had already explained that, by some extraordinary fatality, he never received such a message, if it had ever been sent. All he could say, standing before their Lordships, who, he believed, would give him credit for telling the truth faithfully, was, that neither he nor any of his staff received more than the one to which he had referred at half-past 9 in the morning; and the fact that he immediately sent a messenger back to Colonel Pulleine was a refutation of the charge brought against him. The sixth mistake alleged was that it would have been better if he had allowed Colonel Durnford to continue to discharge his special duties of superintending the fortification of the camp. In reply to this, he could only say that the fact of his sending for Colonel Durnford was evidence that he wished to have him close at hand in order that his advice might be available on engineering questions. Furthermore, he was much indebted to Colonel Durnford for the organization of the force of mounted Natives, which was entirely due to the personal influence which the gallant officer had with the Native Tribes. As far as the formation of the columns of invasion was concerned, the question was a purely technical one, which could not be satisfactorily discussed in their Lordships' House. To justify the strategy which he had adopted, it would be necessary to have a large map; and he would, in fact, have to give a lecture. He would only say that in his view a division of the force into three bodies was absolutely necessary, and was not too much to cover a line of close upon 300 miles. He would, however, be perfectly prepared to discuss the point with

  1035
  anybody who was interested in the subject. He looked back to the campaign with mixed feelings—regret at the loss of the gallant men who fell, and for that sad day of Isandlana, but with pride at what had been accomplished. When the nature of the country in which the troops were operating—the fact that, for military purposes, it may be said to have been a terra incognita—and the numerous difficulties of supply and transport which had to be overcome, were taken into consideration, the six months from January 11 to July 5 could not, he contended, be considered but a short time for the campaign to be brought to a close, and would contrast very favourably with the duration of former Kaffir Wars. He could not but think it unreasonable to say that undue delay had arisen in consequence of the steps which he thought it necessary to take in order to secure the completeness of the expedition. In conclusion, he thanked their Lordships for their attention, but regretted that he should have been called upon to make this explanation.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he was very much surprised that the Under Secretary of State for War should have persistently refused to give any further Returns relative to the short-service system; and it appeared to him that there was a complete union between the Government and the Front Opposition Benches in their resolve not to inquire into the effect of that system, and not to produce the Report of Lord Airey's Commission, which everyone knew was a complete exposure of it. He denied that the noble and gallant Lord had said a word of refutation of the charge he had brought, and the fact remained that 20,000 Zulus were allowed to lie in ambush so near the camp and to assault it as they had done. Whatever might be said, there were not the necessary precautions taken to protect a camp in which most of our stores were.

GLOUCESTER ELECTION—CANTERBURY ELECTION—CHESTER ELECTION—MACCLESFIELD ELECTION—KNARESBOROUGH ELECTION—BOSTON ELECTION—OXFORD ELECTION—SANDWICH ELECTION.
The Lord Steward acquainted the House that Her Majesty had appointed To-morrow, at Balmoral, to receive the Addresses of both
1036
Houses on the said Elections. A message sent to the Commons to inform them thereof, and that the Lords had appointed the Lord Steward and the Lord Chamberlain to present the Addresses on the part of this House, and to desire the Commons to appoint a proportionate number of its members to present the said Addresses with their Lordships.

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT OF THE METROPOLIS—LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION.
  LORD LAMINGTONasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is their intention to prepare during the Recess any Bill for the better municipal government of the Metropolis?
  THE EARL OF CORKassured the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government were fully alive to the importance of the subject to which his Question referred. There were, however, so many other large subjects to which they were directing their attention that they were not at present prepared to make any pledge that they would introduce a Bill for the reform of Metropolitan government next Session. When they could see their way clear they would attend to the subject.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS—THE TEXAN FEVER.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LUCANasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether he can give any information to the House on the subject of the Texan fever, and say what measures, if any, the Government will take to prevent its reaching this country?
  EARL SPENCERdesired to state what had occurred on the important subject referred to by the noble Earl during the last few weeks. Three vessels had arrived lately from America having on board cattle which were diseased. The first cargo came by the Iowa, and arrived on the 5th of August. It consisted of 304 head of cattle, and it appeared that 43 had been thrown overboard during the passage. When the report to that effect reached the Privy Council Office, it was stated by the local Inspector, a veterinary surgeon, at Liverpool, the port at which the cattle were landed, that some of the cattle had symptoms similar to those of what was called splenic apoplexy. An Inspector was accordingly sent down from London, whore-ported that the symptoms raised a strong

  1037
  suspicion that the cattle might he affected with Texan fever. Instructions were accordingly sent to all the ports at which American cattle arrived, requiring Reports to be forwarded as to their condition. A second cargo arrived at Birkenhead from Baltimore on the 23rd of August, consisting of 95 head of cattle; and it was stated that 26 had been thrown overboard, and six cases of suspected Texan fever were detected on post-mortem examination. On the 31st of August a vessel arrived at Cardiff from New York with 109 head of cattle on board. Three had died on the voyage, and two others had been slaughtered, and there were signs among these cattle also of Texan fever. Immediately on hearing these facts, he (Earl Spencer) desired the same Inspector—a man of great experience—to go down and make an investigation, and his Report had not yet been received. As the subject was one of great importance, he had requested his noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to ask Her Majesty's Consul at Boston to trace, if possible, whence these consignments of cattle came; but up to the present time they had not received that information. It would, therefore, be premature to declare with any degree of confidence that the cattle were suffering from the disease known as Texan fever; but there certainly were suspicious symptoms. The utmost care would be taken to watch the cattle as they arrived from America, and to carry out the orders which had been sent on the subject to the various ports. He would give their Lordships some information as to the disease so far as it was known in this country, or what was now stated might lead to some alarm. He might say that he had laid on the Table of the House yesterday the most recent Reports which had been received from America on the subject, and they would be circulated among their Lordships in the course of a few days. They contained at some length the opinions given by various important veterinary authorities in America in reference to Texan fever. The disease had been known in America for a great number of years. It was a disease of a very peculiar character. It appeared to have originated in the States of Texas and Florida, and had never spontaneously appeared in any State above the 34th degree of north latitude.
  1038
  As to the origin of the disease there was considerable difference of opinion. In the country itself—Texas—the native animals did not show that they had any disease in them; but there was this peculiarity about it—that when strange cattle were introduced into Texas they almost invariably contracted the disease and died. "When Texan cattle were brought to other States they left behind them a trail of disease; and other cattle which passed over the road on which they had travelled, or fed in the same pastures with them, contracted the disease, which proved fatal to the extent of 90 per cent. Whole districts were devastated by it, just as a tornado swept over a country destroying everything before it. It was very remarkable—as stated in the Reports—that strange cattle which contracted the disease never conveyed it to other cattle, and that Texan cattle, when removed to a northern climate, apparently lost the poison they had had about them in periods varying from six weeks to three months. Texan cattle brought into another State in the winter after the first frost were not dangerous. These were important matters to be known, because they would diminish, to a great extent, the alarm which might otherwise be felt as to the disease being introduced into this country. The disease had spread to a considerable extent in the United States; in 1866 and 1867 the fever existed in several States, and in 1868 it had reached New York, New Jersey, Ohio, and some of the New England States. The time occupied in the incubation of the disease varied from seven days to four or five weeks, and there were cases in which the incubation had gone on as long as three months. When once cattle were seized with the disease they died very rapidly, to the extent of 90 per cent. Although the fever had many of the characteristics of what was known as splenic apoplexy, it was quite distinct from it, and might easily be known from it. The fever was to be contracted only from the excreta of diseased animals or from grazing on the same pasture as diseased cattle, in which case it was probably contracted from the same cause. Diseases like cattle plague were infectious in the common sense of the term; they were communicated by men, clothes, birds, and dogs that had been in contact with the diseased cattle; but the Texan fever

  1039
  was not communicated by those means, but only by the excreta of the diseased animals. He really thought, therefore, there was practically little or no danger to the herds of this country. He must repeat that they did not know for certain whether the disease which had been imported was Texan fever; but even if it was, there was little or no danger to this country, because all American cattle were slaughtered at the port of landing, and the dead carcass did not communicate the disease; and, as the disease was communicated by excreta, he had given directions that all the manure of such a cargo was to be destroyed. As to whether the flesh of the diseased cattle was fit for human food, the Privy Council had no authority to decide the matter. All they could do was, if they knew of the arrival of any cattle which had the disease, to make it known to the sanitary authority on whom the responsibility rested. As far as he could gather from the evidence in the Reports drawn up in America on the subject, it was supposed that no injurious effects had arisen from the drinking of the milk or the eating of the meat of the cattle which had the disease. At the same time, as there was still some doubt as to what the disease was from which the cattle suffered that had arrived on board the ships referred to, he had thought it right to call the attention of the Local Government Board to the subject, in order that they might, if they thought fit, communicate with the local sanitary authorities. That there was no danger from eating the cooked flesh of animals having the fever was not entirely clear; but there was, no doubt, great danger to dogs and other animals in the eating of the raw flesh of beasts that had had splenic apoplexy. The matter was one that created a good deal of interest in this country; and there would be alarm among stockholders if they did not understand the nature of the disease and the precautions which he had thought it right to take with regard to imported cattle. He hoped the precautions taken, with the able assistance of the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council, would be sufficient to secure safety, so that he might say there was practically no danger to the stock of this country from this disease.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked whether the cattle brought to this
  1040
  country had come direct from Texas, or whether they were cattle from the Eastern States which had contracted the disease?
  LORD DENMANsaid, that he had lost two cows from splenic apoplexy, which did not appear to be infectious, as these were poisoned by palm nut meal which had been heated and made rancid. He believed the great danger to cattle was going into Texas, and he hoped that none would be brought out.
  EARL SPENCERsaid, the question was a very important one, and, in the endeavour to arrive at an answer to it, he had asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to communicate with the Consul at Boston to trace the animals, in order that they might know whether they actually came from the West.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.
  The Lord Boyle—Chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Commissioner.

GLOUCESTER ELECTION—CANTERBURY ELECTION—CHESTER ELECTION—MACCLESFIELD ELECTION—KNARESBOROUGH ELECTION—BOSTON ELECTION—OXFORD ELECTION—SANDWICH ELECTION.
Message from the Commons, that they have appointed the Marquess of Hartington, Secretary Sir William Harcourt, Mr. Secretary Childers, and the Comptroller of the Household, to present to Her Majesty, with the Lords mentioned in their Lordships Message, the Addresses relative to the elections for the Cities of Gloucester, Canterbury, and Chester; the Boroughs of Macclesfield, Knaresborough, and Boston; the City of Oxford; and the Borough of Sandwich.

EMPLOYERS LIABILITY BILL.
Returned from the Commons with several of the Amendments agreed to, one agreed to with an Amendment, and others disagreed to, together with the reasons for such disagreement: The said amendment and reasons to be printed, and to be considered To-morrow. (No. 217.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Eleven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five oclock.