Lords Sitting of 24 May 1880

MINUTES.
TOOK THE OATH—Several Lords. PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading Employers Liability to Workmen (69); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Ballinasloe, &c.)* (70); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Rosstrevor)*(71).

QUEEN'S SPEECH —HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
THE LORD STEWARD (Earl SYDNEY)reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:—
"MY LORDS,
"Your loyal and dutiful Address affords me much satisfaction.
"I rely with confidence on your cordial cooperation in all measures which may be submitted to you, with the view of improving the Institutions of the Country and of promoting the welfare and prosperity of all classes of My People."
The noble Earl moved that Her Majesty's reply he printed and published.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he desired to say a few words in regard to the gracious Answer which had come down from Her Majesty. The closing words of the Speech from the Throne indicated three great points. First of all, Her Majesty commended to the favourable consideration of the authorities the projected Confederation in South Africa; secondly, Her Majesty stated her intention of maintaining her supremacy over the Transvaal; and, thirdly, Her Majesty indicated her intention of extending to the European settlers institutions based on large and liberal principles of self-government. In regard to the policy of Confederation, it had been very much assailed, and had undergone great vicissitudes of fortune during four or five years; but he still believed himself that such would be found the best security for the development and prosperity of the South African Colonies, and also the best security to the Home Government against a recurrence of calamitous and expensive wars, such as those in which they had recently been engaged. He, therefore, viewed that announcement with great satisfaction,

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and he would also say that he agreed most heartily with the intention expressed by Her Majesty of maintaining her supremacy over the Transvaal. He had no doubt that the Secretary of State for the Colonies would hear a great deal more of this from South Africa, in the form of Memorials and Protests; but he only trusted that he would be perfectly firm and unhesitating in his language, and that he would not give any encouragement whatever to the Dutch settlers to suppose that there was any uncertainty in the minds of the Government. He was certain that this was not only the wisest and soundest policy, but that it was one of true kindness to the Dutch settlers themselves. Lastly, it was stated in the Royal Speech that it was intended to establish in the South African Colonies institutions based on large and liberal principles of self-government. He had nothing whatever to say against that proposal. On the contrary, he had always entertained the view that such institutions should be given to the Transvaal; but he took the liberty of suggesting to the Government that they should be cautious on two points. He trusted that they would bear in mind that the Native population far outnumbered the Whites within the limits of the Transvaal. Next, he hoped the Government would establish those institutions in such a manner and under such conditions that they might not be used hereafter as a lever against the maintenance of the supremacy of the Crown in the Transvaal. The case of the Ionian Islands might be borne in mind by way of caution. Years ago one of the difficulties which was experienced there was that whenever the Legislature of those Islands was called together, the first thing proposed was the passing of a Resolution repudiating the suprernaej' of the Crown. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would keep this matter fully in view. He entertained very little doubt of the future prosperity of the Transvaal, on one condition—that we were not in too great a hurry to secure its complete settlement. First, there ought not to be an immediate or very summary withdrawal of the troops. Their withdrawal ought to be effected gradually and with the greatest caution. Otherwise, in the present temper of the Colony, there would be a difficulty in connection with the taxes.
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Secondly, every care ought to be taken to stop anything like the importation of arms into the Transvaal. It was far easier to stop an importation of arms than to disarm a population. Thirdly, every legitimate facility should be given to the immigration' of English Colonists into the Transvaal. In that lay the key to a great deal of the future settlement of the Transvaal. Lastly, he hoped every effort would be made by our Government to keep up communication with the Government of the Orange Free State. He had the pleasure of knowing something personally of the President of that State, and he knew that no man could have been more friendly, and none could have acted with more complete straightforwardness and loyalty to this country during recent difficulties. He was satisfied that in dealing with the whole of this complicated question the main object to be kept in view was the re-assurance of the Dutch population.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was much obliged to his noble Friend for giving him the opportunity of saying a few words on the subject. He was not surprised that his noble Friend approved the passage in the Speech from the Throne referring to the Confederation of the South African Colonies, because it was his noble Friend himself who had originated the scheme of that Confederation. It was one, too, which, on the whole, had been approved by both Parties in Parliament when the Act for the purpose was passed, and he knew of nothing which had occurred since to make them turn back. He must repeat, however, that when his noble Friend originated that policy he thought he was rather premature in doing so, and something might be said against the way in which it had been introduced in South Africa; but nothing could be more unfortunate now than not to give it a fair chance. There were many difficulties in the way of bringing that policy into operation. It was a matter requiring much attention and consideration, and the display of much patience. At the present time he was not without hope that progress would be made with the question, for Resolutions proposing a Conference of all the States were about to be introduced into the Cape Parliament. He thought it not improbable that those Resolutions

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would be carried; in which case there was considerable hope that they would then at least be able to see what the views of the different Colonies were; and if it should be found that these efforts were likely to lead to an agreement, he thought there would be found the elements of a settlement of many of the difficult and complicated questions with which they had to deal in South Africa. His noble Friend did not dissent from the proposition that the whole question of the South African Colonies was one of great difficulty and complexity, and for himself he could not say that since the time when he before held the Seals of the Colonial Office its difficulties had diminished. The annexation of the Transvaal had brought about its own difficulty; and with regard to that, he had always endeavoured to do full justice to his noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon), who had thought it his duty to adopt that measure; but he thought it must be evident that at the time it was decided upon his noble Friend must have thought the Dutch settlers were in favour of the annexation. Those assurances had, however, proved misleading. It was easy to be wise after the event; but he must express his opinion that as matters now appeared it would have been better if we had not annexed the Transvaal. He did not think the Dutch settlers could have changed so much since Sir Theophilus Shepstone was among them when they were said to be favourable to annexation, because it was clear that the great majority of them were now against it; but the question was not now whether we should annex the Transvaal. He was, as he had said, inclined to think it would have been better if we had not annexed it; but assurances having been given to the Native population that they would be under the British Crown, and the communication having been made to the Dutch settlers that there was no intention to abandon the annexation, it would not be desirable now to recede. There was a still stronger reason than that for not receding. It was impossible to say what calamities such a step as receding might not cause. We had., at the cost of much blood and treasure, restored peace, and the effect of our now reversing our policy would be to leave the Province in a state of anarchy, and possibly to cause an internecine war. For such
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a risk he could not make himself responsible. The number of the Natives in the Transvaal was estimated at about 800,000, and that of the Whites at less than 50,000. Difficulties with the Zulus and the Frontier Tribes would again arise; and looking, as they must, to South Africa as a whole, the Government, after a careful consideration of the question, came to the conclusion that we could not relinquish the Transvaal. Nothing could be more unfortunate than uncertainty in respect of such a matter. We must pursue a steady course, and he hoped that those who took an interest in this question would remember that nowhere were patience and forbearance more necessary than in respect of South Africa. Complaints, in some cases, might be made of the Whites with reason. They might make mistakes; but, having regard to their small number, and bearing in mind that they were on the spot, we must allow them considerable liberty of action. His noble Friend had referred to the question of disarmament. When some time ago he asked the late Under Secretary of State for the Colonies under what authority that was ordered, he was informed that it was not ordered by the High Commissioner, but under the authority of the Peace Preservation Act passed under the responsibility of the Cape Ministry. When he assumed Office he considered whether he could offer advice on the subject, especially as to whether this was an opportune time for the disarmament; but he found that the Proclamation for it had already been issued two or three weeks before, and that the process of disarmament was already going on quietly. Therefore, whatever advice he might have tendered, if he could have done so before the measure was actually taken, it would be seen that it would have been very unwise to have interfered with what had already been done by the Cape Ministry on their own responsibility. He had thought it his duty, however, to remind the Cape Ministry that it was upon their responsibility alone that the measure had been adopted. He concurred with his noble Friend as to the desirability of being on friendly relations with the Orange Free State, the President of which had shown himself to be very friendly towards us. It would be the policy of the Government to hold the balance fairly and im-

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partially between the races, and while protecting the Native populations to remember that the White Colonists had also claims on our consideration. Whatever might have been the causes of the late wars, the White Colonists had shown themselves ready to vigorously do its part in protecting their own territory. The object which the Government must keep in view was to put the Colony in such a condition that it might, except in cases of extreme emergency, deal with its own affairs. He hoped that the scheme of Confederation already contemplated might succeed, and that he or his successor might see the whole of the South African Colonies, if not the Orange Free State, included in one Dominion.
Motion agreed to.
Address and Answer ordered to be printed and published.

INDIA—CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN INDIAN GAOLS.—QUESTION.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that since he brought the case of the Brahmin Gya Pershad before the House last year, he had been informed by Lord Lytton's Private Secretary that the repeated floggings he had undergone for trifling infractions of prison rules were according to the India Prisons Act of 1870. Now, he did not refer to the cases of ruffians who might assault the warders; but in cases like this of Gya Pershad, a man who had rendered services to the Government, and had received a parchment certificate, called a Sunnud from Sir Richard Temple for hi public-spiritedness, the Prisons Act re quired revision. He had heard of an other case at the gaol of Patna, where a Mr. Simpson, the Superintendent, said to a prisoner named Amir Khan, "You are not working," and because he replied, perhaps hastily, "You see I am working;" for this he ordered him to be flogged, and as the man was in some danger of his life from the flogging, the Lieutenant Governor ordered an inquiry; but nothing came of it. With regard to the other Question of which he had given Notice, it had been stated in two novels which had appeared, one last year and the other this year, that in the Punjab a rule existed, or a Circular had been issued, to the effect that in murder cases where there was insufficient evi-
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dence, the case should be treated as manslaughter, with penal servitude for life. These novels were more of the nature of pamphlets in disguise; but as such books might be thought too trivial, he would read to the House a letter from their author, who might be known to the noble Marquess, since he recently opposed his brother at the elections at Calne.
"3, King's Bench Walk, Temple,
"May 10, 1880.
"DEAR LORD STANLEY,—The statements in Beating the Air, and in Loyal and Lawless, with regard to evidence sufficient and insufficient, in murder cases in the Punjab, are grounded upon my personal experience and recollection.
"I fancy the rule referred to by me was laid down in a Circular by the Punjab Chief Court, addressed to Civil Officers, in 1873 or thereabouts, and the Circular may have been printed in The Punjab Record, an official compilation published monthly at Lahore.
"But as to the fact of the existence of such a rule I need scarcely say there is no doubt whatever. I have always been most anxious that my books should be true, not only in general, but in particulars; but it never occurred to me to seek for documentary evidence of what I learned by personal experience in the country of which I wrote.
"Truly yours,
(Signed) "ULICK RALPH BURKE."
Now, it was very difficult to obtain any attention in England for these things, which were blots upon the administration, and abuses, and he hoped the India Office would remedy them. Mr. Gladstone had used these words with reference to the murder of Serjeant Brett and the blowing up of the Clerk-enwell Prison as leading to attention to Irish grievances. They were his amended words last March, after Lord Grey had taken exception to what he said in November.
"Those two great crimes committed in England led the people of England to consider the state of Ireland; and when they came to consider the state of Ireland, it was not through the murder of the policeman or the blowing up of Clerkenwell Prison, but by the merits of the case."
Now, in order to obtain attention to their grievances, would it be necessary for the Indians to murder a Chuprassy, or a Chief Commissioner, or even a Lieutenant Governor?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE, in reply, said, so far as he had been able to ascertain, there was no reason to believe that the Indian Prisons Act of 1870 stood in need of revision in respect of

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those of its provisions which dealt with the infliction of corporal punishment for breaches of prison discipline. Up to 1870 punishment of that kind was inflicted by the direction of the magistrates or the gaol superintendents, under rules framed by the different local governments, the legality of which rules had, he believed, been sometimes questioned. When the Prisons Act of 1870 was in preparation this point was thoroughly considered, and a Select Committee of Council appointed for the purpose. It was the opinion of all experts in Indian prison administration that it would not be possible to maintain discipline in the large Indian gaols without retaining the power of inflicting corporal punishment. The gaols were large, some containing as many as 1,000 prisoners, and punishments could be inflicted in English prisons which could not be adopted in India, in consequence of the difference of the climate and of the character of the people. With regard to the particular case to which his noble Friend called attention last year, the statement had attracted the attention of the authorities in India, and the Government had received a Memorandum from the Chief Commissioner, in which he pointed out that the noble Lord had been very much misinformed as to the details of the case. The prisoner to whom the noble Lord had referred, a person of the name of Gya Pershad, had been convicted of a very serious offence—that of forgery—and in prison it had been found necessary to frequently punish him for breaches of discipline. He had ascertained that since the passing of the Act of 1870 a Committee had been appointed by the Indian authorities to inquire into the question of prison discipline; but its Report had not been sent to this country. He had taken steps, however, to procure it; and if it touched at all upon the particular aspect of the matter referred to by his noble Friend, it would undoubtedly be the duty of the Government to consider any suggestion the Committee might have made. His noble Friend was also misinformed on the second point of the Question. His noble Friend supposed that in 1873 a Circular had been issued directing the Judges to pass sentences of transportation in murder cases where there was not evidence sufficient to warrant a sentence of death. There was no such Cir-
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cular in existence. What had happened in 1873 was this—a prisoner had been convicted of murder, and the Judge had passed a sentence of transportation upon him, upon the ground that he had not been arrested in the act of committing the crime, or while escaping from the place in which it had been committed. The case came before the Superior Court, and the two Judges who sat upon it expressly disapproved the action of the Inferior Court. The Superior Court held that if the evidence was incomplete the prisoner should have been acquitted; while, if the evidence was sufficient to justify a conviction, the offence was one deserving the extreme penalty of the law. In the same year, a Judge of the Sessions Court of Peshawur had submitted a memorandum recommending that in murder cases where there was a difficulty in obtaining complete evidence, sentences of transportation should be passed. The Chief Court had, however, entirely repudiated the doctrine that punishments could be graduated according to the amount of evidence. The noble Lord would, therefore, understand that the practice of the Indian Courts was not by any means what he had been led to suppose.

EMPLOYEES' LIABILITY TO WORK-MEN BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST BEADING.
  EARL DE LA WARR, in presenting a Bill to define and amend the law relating to the liability of Employers to make compensation for personal injuries suffered by persons in their employment, said, it was identical in all its important parts with the measure which he had the honour of introducing to their Lordships last year. Their Lordships would remember that a Bill was also introduced by his noble and learned Friend then on the Woolsack (Earl Cairns). It was somewhat similar in character to his own, but more restricted in its operation. On the second reading in that House the measure was referred to a Select Committee, upon the understanding that all the points in both Bills should be thoroughly considered. The Committee only met once; but there was little doubt that, had it proceeded with its deliberations, it would have arrived at a satisfactory issue. But with the Dissolution of Par-

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  liament all Bills naturally dropped; and therefore it was that he had again to ask their Lordships' consideration for the measure he was about to introduce. Now, he must say that he rejoiced to find that Her Majesty's Government had taken up the subject, for he believed it was a subject that could only be dealt with by a Government. But, at the same time, he regretted that it had been resolved to introduce the Bill first in the other House. They knew the fate that generally attended measures brought forward at a late period of a Session in "another place;" and whilst he did not for a moment distrust the intentions of Her Majesty's Government to proceed with the Bill, he was conscious there might be difficulties that would render it impossible for them to do so. He ventured to submit, therefore, whether it would not be desirable to re-consider that step, and to introduce the Bill into their Lordships' House, where there would be more time and opportunity to consider it.
  Bill to define and amend the law relating to the liability of Employers to make compensation for personal injuries suffered by persons in their employment —Presented (The Earl DE LA WAKR).
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the appeal made by the noble Earl to the Government to re-consider their determination to introduce a Bill on this subject in the other House came a little too late; because the Bill of Her Majesty's Government had been already introduced in the House of Commons, and, he believed, an early day had been appointed for the second reading. The Government were sincerely anxious to pass a measure on this subject, the importance of which they fully recognized; and no effort on their part would be wanting to get the Bill through the Lower House in sufficient time to have it fully considered by their Lordships in the course of the present Session. He could not agree that the House of Commons was a less fit Assembly to consider the matter than the House of Lords. No doubt the House of Lords was as desirous as the other House to do what it possibly could to carry a measure that would do justice to workmen without any improper encroachment on the rights of employers; but considering that a large number of Mem
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  bers of Parliament were employers of labour, coming into personal contact with workmen, and that others were direct representatives of labour interests, he thought their Lordships would see that there was no impropriety in the determination of the Government to introduce the Bill in the House of Commons. He might as well say that the difference between the measure of the Government and that of the noble Earl was so inconsiderable that there would be no advantage in proceeding with the latter. All parties were unanimous that the present law was unsatisfactory and required amendment. In the last Session three Bills were introduced—two in the House of Lords, and one in the House of Commons. One of those introduced in the House of Lords was that of the noble Earl; another was that of the late Government. The measure introduced by the late Government was limited to accidents and injuries sustained by persons in the employment of Railway Companies, proprietors of mines, and the owners of manufacturing works. He did not see why a remedy, which was just in those cases, should not also be extended to other kinds of employment. The Bill of the late Government also did not make provision for a class of cases which he thought well deserved to be included—namely, injuries caused by defects, for which employers might justly be held responsible, in the machinery, plant, and stock used in their business. The other Bill was introduced by Mr.Brassey, and that the Government had thought it right to adopt without any substantial change. That measure did not proceed on the distinction between railways, mines, and manufactories, and other cases; but made the remedy more general. He could not but think that was a sound principle. On comparison, he thought the noble Earl would find that the difference between the Government Bill and his own was so slight that it would be scarcely necessary for him to proceed beyond the first reading.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, that after the satisfactory statement of the noble and learned Lord he should not proceed further with his Bill than had just been indicated until the measure from the other House reached their Lordships.
  Bill read la, to be printed. (No. 9.)

NAVY—LOSS OF H.M. S."ATALANTA."

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD HOUGHTON, in asking the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he intended to appoint a Naval Commission to inquire into the seaworthiness of the training ship Atalanta? and expressing sympathy with the relatives of those who might unhappily now he considered as having perished in the ill-fated ship, referred to the loss of the Eurydice, and said, he trusted that there would be no objection to the appointment of a Naval Commission upon the subject of the foundering of the Atalanta. He considered that the men on board had lost their lives in the service of their country just as much as if they had fallen in action. He thought it would be well if the Commission were not only to inquire into the seaworthiness of the ship, but were able to show that it was suitable for the purpose to which it was applied, that it was manned under the best and wisest superintendence, and in such a way that reliance was not necessarily placed on the support and assistance of the very large number of youthful students of the Navy who were on board, and who, in such a danger as the ship had had to encounter, would be rather an impediment and a difficulty than any source of help.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, before answering the Question that has been put to me by my noble Friend, I think it is right to inform your Lordships, with the deepest regret, that the Naval Members of the Board of Admiralty see no hope whatever of the safety of the Atalanta; and, my Lords, as so many of your Lordships take an interest in the ship, I have desired charts to be placed in the Library showing the evidence upon which that conclusion has been arrived at. The logs of some forty vessels have been consulted; and it has been proved that between the 12th and the 16th of February a terrific gale spread over a considerable portion of the Atlantic. Some 18 merchant vessels have been reported at Lloyd's as missing. They were homeward bound from the United States, the Gulf of Mexico, and the West Indies, and it is feared they have foundered in the gale. The Caspaei passed the latitude of Bermuda on the
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  3rd of February, and was dismasted on the 12th, thrown on her beam ends, and only saved in consequence of her cargo having consisted of new cotton on board. The Atalanta left Bermuda on the 31st of January, and we may assume that she had the same winds and weather as the Caspaei, and would, therefore, on the 12th have been about 300 miles to the eastward, and exposed to the same terrific gale. Had the Atalanta passed through the gale unhurt we can trace her course homewards, as we know that westerly winds prevailed for some days after the gale, which would have brought the Atalanta to the entrance of the Channel by the 20th of February. Had she been dismasted on the 12th or 13th of February she would have rigged jury masts, and have been driven homewards, even under a small amount of canvas, a few days later. Had she even drifted about as a helpless wreck she would still have been driven to the eastward; and under any circumstances she would have passed through a tract of the ocean which we know, from the logs of merchant vessels at that time, which have been examined, was crowded with sailing and steaming merchant ships. This is shown upon another chart which has been prepared by the Admiralty. My Lords, the late Board of Admiralty, as your Lordships can well understand, were even earlier than the public anxious as to the fate of the Atalanta, and they took every measure which could be taken to search for the vessel as soon as they became anxious for her safety. As I have said before, the Naval Members of the Admiralty have come to the conclusion that no further hope remains of the safety of the vessel; and I need hardly assure your Lordships that those who have been in any way connected with this inquiry feel, as deeply as the noble Lord who has just spoken, great sympathy with those who had relatives on board. The noble Lord has said, with perfect truth, that those who have lost their lives in the Atalanta have lost their lives in the service of their Queen and their country just as much as if they had lost their lives in an engagement with the enemy. My Lords, if there had been any survivors of the Atalanta, the ordinary and necessary course would have been to order a court mar-

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  tial to assemble to try the survivors for the loss of the ship, in which ease the fullest inquiry 'would have taken place into such of the circumstances as could have been made the subject of investigation. But, my Lords, under the present circumstances, it is necessary for the Board of Admiralty to take a different course; and it has been determined, after full consideration, to appoint a Committee for the purpose of investigating the loss of the ship. That Committee will be presided over by Admiral Ryder, the Commander-in-Chief at Portsmouth, who was in no degree concerned in fitting out the ship, he having been appointed to his present command after the ship started on its voyage. The Members of the Committee will be Vice Admiral Randolph, C.B., Mr. H. C. Rothery, the Wreck Commissioner, who is experienced in inquiries into the causes of wrecks, Staff Captain Batt, of the Royal Navy, an officer eminently qualified for an inquiry of this kind; and a gentleman who was recommended to me by the Chairman of Lloyd's Registry, whom I consulted on the subject. His name is Mr. Bernard Waymouth, who was late chief surveyor to Lloyd's Register of British and Foreign Shipping, and is now their secretary. I am satisfied, my Lords, that this Committee is so constituted as to give the Board of Admiralty assurance that a full and complete inquiry will take place. The instructions to be given to the Committee will be that they should report their opinion as to the stability, seaworthiness, and efficiency of the ship; and whether she was not in all respects equipped and manned so as to fit her for the service in which she was employed. I believe, my Lords, those instructions will include all those points which were mentioned by my noble Friend. My Lords, the evidence will be taken by this Committee in public, in the same manner as before a court martial. I have only to add that I have been in communication with the late First Lord of the Admiralty upon this subject, and he has expressed to me his concurrence in the course which is proposed to be taken, and his desire—as it is quite natural it should be—that the inquiry should be as complete and as full as possible.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he had Been many letters upon the subject of
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  the loss of the Atalanta, and he hoped the noble Earl would not be led away by any rumours as to the unseaworthiness of the ship. Vessels of the class of the Atalanta were, in his opinion, perfectly safe; but the Naval Service was a dangerous one, and the loss of this ship was one of its accidents. He thought it would be utterly impossible to have a body of ably trained seamen unless they received instruction on sailing vessels. The Atalanta belonged to a class of vessels which induced them to think she would not capsize. She was not considered unseaworthy or dangerous, and the only conclusion was that the unfortunate vessel had been lost in the terrific gale of February last.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (BALLINASLOE, &C.) BILL
  [H.L.] (NO. 70). A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland, relating to the town of Ballinasloe; and to the Ballymacormick Burial Ground; and to the towns of Clonmel and Tralee: and to waterworks in the town of Wicklow: And

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (ROSSTREVOR) BILL [H.L.]
  (NO. 71.) A Bill to confirm a certain Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to waterworks in the town of Rosstrevor: Were presented by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.