Lords Sitting of 19 March 1880

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—National Debt *; Exchequer Bills and Bonds *.
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) *;Customs and Inland Revenue *; Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices (No. 2) (50).
Committee—Settled Land (re-comm.)* (32); Conveyancing and Law of Property (re-comm.)* (33), discharged.
Third Reading—Municipal Corporations (Property Qualification Abolition)* (40);Common Law Procedure and Judicature Acts Amendment * (51); Blind and Deaf-Mute Children * (52), and passed.
Royal Assent—Beer Dealers Retail Licences [43 Vict. c. 6]; Road Debts on Entailed Estates (Scotland) [43 Vict. c. 7]; Artizans Dwellings Act (1868) Amendment Act (1879) Amendment [43 Vict. c. 8]; East India Loan (East Indian Railway Debentures) [43 Vict. c. 10]; India Stock (Powers of Attorney) [43 Vict. c. 11];Army Discipline and Regulation (Annual) [43 Vict. c. 9]; Rammingen's Naturalization [43 Vict. c. i]

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS AND CORRUPT PRACTICES (No. 2) BILL.
(The Lord President.)
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS AND CORRUPT PRACTICES (No. 2) BILL.

  (NO. 50.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK,in moving that the Bill, which had just come up from the Commons, be now read a second time, said, it was rendered necessary by a doubt as to the existing law in respect of the conveyance of voters to the poll. Its object, therefore, was to make legal the use of conveyances in boroughs at Parliamentary elections. It made no other change in the law beyond introducing into Scotland the same declaration with regard to personation which existed in England.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Viscount Cranbrook.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, this was an objectionable Bill. It did not apply to Ireland and Scotland, and it was one which ought not to be pressed through for this country in the last days of the Parliament, seeing that it made a most important change in the law. It was stated that the object of the Bill was to enable people to go to the poll who might not be otherwise able to do so; but it was singularly anomalous that while this provision applied to England it was not considered necessary in Scotland or Ireland. If there was anything objectionable in the present system of election it was the expense, and this was a device to increase the expense. If anything was necessary to be done in this matter, surely the proper course would have been to make the existing law more strict. The objection to this Bill was not merely the expense to which candidates would be put, but that the employment of conveyances was a direct means of influencing votes. He could not conceive a more retrograde or objectionable step than that which was taken
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  by this Bill. It was a deliberate attempt to narrow the choice of constituencies, and to limit them to the selection of rich candidates; but, in his opinion, nothing could be worse than that candidates should be rejected merely because they were poor. It was to be regretted that a Bill of the kind should have been brought in at the tail end of Parliament and on the eve of a General Election.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that a quorum of their Lordships' House being only three the Bill might be discussed; but he objected to it on different grounds than the lateness of the Session. Noble Lords might attend if they wished to oppose any Bill.
  Motion agreed to;Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

INDIA—FACTORY LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that last year the Secretary of State for India held out a strong hope of legislation in India on the subject of the women and children employed in the mills of that country. He wished to ask the noble Viscount (Viscount Cranbrook), Whether the Government of India has passed any measure for the regulation of the labour of women and children in mills and factories?
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, it had been stated in the public prints that a measure, such as that which had been asked for by the noble Earl, had been before the Indian Legislative Council, but that it had been shelved, owing to the opposition of the unofficial Members of the Council. The discussion of this measure was an instance of the necessity of having Indians as Members of that Council, as their opinion on the labour of women and children would be of more value than that of Europeans.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK,in reply, said, he had hoped that there would have been legislation on the subject before now. The noble Earl would remember that when he (Viscount Cranbrook) spoke upon the subject last year he quoted from a Minute of Sir Richard Temple, and at that time he was under the impression that a Bill was to be brought in for the Presidency of Bombay. But the Bill was taken up in No-

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  vember for the whole of the country, and it was sent to the different Governors of all the districts of India in order that public opinion on it might be ascertained. It came back to the Governor General in Council to consider as a permissive measure which the Local Governments might adopt or not as they thought fit. It was then referred, in the ordinary course, to a Committee of the Council, which Committee changed it to a compulsory Bill. Considerable opposition was then raised against it, and it was put aside with the view of its being again submitted to the Local Governors of the districts. He regretted that legislation had not been accomplished; but he must say that on looking through the Bill, and taking certain facts into consideration which had since come under his notice, he did not think it was one which would be applicable to the whole country. What occurred to him was this. The new Governor of Bombay, Sir James Fergusson, who had been Chairman of the Factory Commission in this country, and who was as well acquainted with these subjects as any other person, had not yet gone over to India. He would confer with Sir James Fergusson before he did go, with a view to securing a legislative measure on the subject as soon as possible.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYfelt much obliged to the noble Viscount, and was quite satisfied with the assurance he had just given. He should be quite content if legislation on the matter were commenced in Bombay.

ARMY (INDIA).—QUESTION.
LORD DORCHESTERasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true that—
"Owing to the complete failure of the Recruiting Department and the prospect of an early campaign, the Government of India is contemplating the re-enlistment of the Native Pensioners to supply the place of the troops despatched to the front;"
and, what the numbers of those troops and what those of the Pensioners are?
LORD DENMAN LORD DENMAN moved the adjournment of the House, that he might be in Order, and said, the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for India (Viscount Cranbrook) knew that he (Lord Den-man) had given considerable attention to the history of India; and he must
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remark that the Army of that country was large, and that although the tenets of the Mahomedan Natives of Afghanistan were in exact accordance with the Turks, yet no attempt to raise a Jehad ever produced any effect at Constantinople. It was now well known by Mahomedans that no attempt to convert by the sword was ever made by English Forces, and that although under the Mahomedan creed such a course was formerly considered indispensable, yet that now it was not pursued by the Sultan. The proportion of Mahomedans in Hindostan was of 40,000,000 to 200,000,000;but it had been truly said by Bernier that a small disciplined army, such as Turcanis, could well maintain itself against all, and the conduct of Sir Frederick Roberts and of statesmen had turned enemies into friends in India. Bernier had even referred to the retreat of the 10,000 as detailed by Xenophon. He (Lord Denman) believed that the whole of India would be better defended from Cabul than from any other position, and that it would not require more troops for the whole of Hindostan than if they were to remain in the south. The embassy of Mount-Stuart Elphinstone could only reach Peshawur, which was then part of Afghanistan; and he (Lord Denman) trusted that a friendly feeling might be re-established amongst the Sirdars and different Tribes, who would cease from their intestine dssension, if a strong power became established.
Moved, "That this House do now adjourn."—(The Lord Denman.)
VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that the Question of which the noble Lord had given him private Notice was one which it was very natural he (Lord Dorchester) should ask. The quotation in that Question was from a newspaper which had made certain statements in respect to the Army in Afghanistan; but the noble Lord, being himself an old soldier, must see that the present recruiting could not very much affect the immediate campaign in Afghanistan. As in England, so in India; a recruit could not be sent to the front under nine or ten months of preparation. Nor had he any reason to think that the Armies of Afghanistan were not all-sufficient for the purposes which they were intended to fulfil. On the contrary, so far as he

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was informed, they were in an highly efficient state and fit for the duties they had to discharge. With respect to the Question of the noble Lord, therefore, he was able to answer it in the negative. There was no reason to suppose that any permanent steps would be taken for the purpose of raising more recruits than Were required under ordinary circumstances, though he was quite willing to say that recruiting in India was not in the condition which was desirable, and would require some temporary inducement, as was frequently the case in this country in time of war. He did not mean, however, to imply that there was any reason to suppose that a permanent inducement was required to promote recruiting in India; and, as to the re-enlistment of Native Pensioners to supply the place of troops despatched to the front, he could only say that the Report was quite inconsistent with the information which he had received from India. It was not contemplated, nor was it intended in that way to supply any temporary default in recruiting.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
House adjourned at a quarter past Four o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.