HL Deb 15 March 1880 vol 251 cc957-62

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)

said, before the noble Earl moved the second reading of the Bill, he wished to point out the objectionable manner in which it had been taken. They had now arrived at a late period of the Session, when the attendance of noble Lords was very much limited, and therefore he hoped the noble Earl would not proceed with the measure. The Bill was one which entirely altered the whole relation between landlord and tenant in Scotland from one end of the country to the other; and he thought that without proper Notice it was not expedient to proceed with such a measure at a time when a great number of noble Lords who were connected with Scotland were not present, and were not likely to be in attendance before the Dissolution. The House sat most unexpectedly on Saturday, and up to then no Notice whatever had been given that it was intended to move the second reading of the Bill that day, so that, practically, a great number of noble Lords had had no Notice of the Bill. He, therefore, appealed to the noble Earl not to proceed with the second reading.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

most sincerely hoped that the noble Earl would proceed with the Bill, which was one which very much affected all classes in Scotland. It affected the landlords, and it affected the tenant farmers. It was not now for the first time brought under the consideration of Parliament. It had been discussed during several Sessions of Parliament, and several Bills had been brought forward attempting to deal with the subject. He thought there were only two clauses in the Bill. He believed there was more unanimity of feeling in support of the Bill among all the Members of Parliament connected with Scotland than there had been with regard to any other measure for many Sessions past. The Bill had been very much looked for by the people of Scotland, and he should be very sorry if his noble Friend behind him should agree to the proposal of his noble Friend the Chairman of Committees. He believed the Bill would require some Amendments; but those Amendments could be very easily put into the Bill in Committee.

THE EARL OF HADDINGTON,

in moving that the Bill be now read, a second time, said, it applied only to agricultural and not to urban populations. It reserved the rights of all existing landlords, and the time fixed for it to come into operation would be Martinmas, 1881. By the 2nd clause the landlord, when six months' rent was due, could take the tenant before the Sheriff, and obtain security for the payment of the rent; and if 12 months' rent was due, he could proceed before the Sheriff to have the tenant removed; but he could not have him removed without having given 14 days' notice of his intention. It had been proposed that the 2nd clause should be amended; but the Amendment would not in any way affect the principle of the Bill, as it applied entirely to procedure. He had briefly stated what were the objects of the Bill; and he hoped their Lordships would give it a second reading without a division, and let it pass to the other House. The subject was one in which he believed the landlords of Scotland to be unanimous; and it was also a Bill in which the tenant farmers in the South of Scotland felt very strongly.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Haddington.)

THE EARL OF AIRLIE

was bound to say that it was quite clear the opinion of the great majority of the tenant farmers was in favour of the object of the Bill. Every county of Scotland, without distinction of Party, had returned Members who were prepared to abolish the Law of Hypothec. He gave his hearty support to the second reading. It was quite clear, that although the landlord had no right to be placed in a better position, he ought not to be placed in a worse one than other creditors. He should so far be placed in the same position as other creditors, that he would have a summary and quick process in his hand against the tenant. He did not know whether the arrangement proposed in the Bill quite met the ease; but that was a matter which he would look for being dealt with rather in Com- mittee than on the second reading. In the meantime, he concluded by giving the Bill his cordial support.

LORD BLANTYRE

said, that England had, for some time past, imitated the laws of Scotland—as in their County Courts copied from the Scotch Sheriff Courts—and England would do well to imitate the Scotch Law of Hypothec; at least, it seemed a much milder law than that of "distress" The right of hypothec gave the landlord a security over the crop of each year for the rent of that year, and over the cattle and stocking on the farm for the current year's rent; but crop of 1801, for instance, could not be hypothecated for rent of 1800, because the creditor would, in such case, have no means of redress, and the interest of the landlord would be extended further than the principle on which hypothec was founded would support it. A reasonable security, such as hypothec afforded, was favourable to the improvement of agriculture, and its abolition would be injurious. Leases for 19 years would no longer be the rule—a manure merchant could drop a bad customer; but the engagements of a 19 years' lease were not so easily put aside, so would not be entered into. Tenants would not have sufficient time allowed them to pay their rents out of produce. The desire for the abolition of hypothec was by no means general; on property he (Lord Blantyre) had in the West of Scotland, his tenants desired to maintain it. He thought that, in the interests of tenants generally in Scotland, the abolition of hypothec would prove a mistake, and, therefore, he objected to the second reading of the Bill.

THE EARL OF ABERDEEN

supported the second reading of the Bill. He understood the noble Earl who moved it (the Earl of Haddington) to say that the Bill was regarded with general approval, both amongst the landlords and tenants in the South of Scotland. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) could tell them that it was not regarded in the North of Scotland with less approval than in the South. He was sorry he could not agree with the observations of his noble Friend (Lord Blantyre) regarding the doubtful character of the benefit they were about to confer upon the tenant farmers. It had been often remarked that the Law of Hypothec had done great things in the way of en- couraging that class which their Lord-ships were desirous should be encouraged—namely, the small tenant farmers of Scotland; but it was also to be remembered that the law had encouraged many small farmers to undertake farming with insufficient capital. Recent experience had shown abundantly that when this was the case, it caused much difficulty, loss, and damage to the farmers, as well as to the landlords. He was one of those who looked forward with perfect confidence and satisfaction to the passing of this Bill. He knew it was regarded with great approval in the county with which he was more particularly connected.

THE EARL OF GALLOWAY

said, he would do nothing in opposition to the Bill; but he entirely agreed with the remark of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees about bringing it in at the very last moment. It was only this morning that he heard of it. A matter of such importance to the Kingdom of Scotland ought not to be dealt with so hurriedly.

LORD DENMAN

entirely disagreed with the Chairman of Committees, and held it was the duty of those who had brought the Bill forward to press it. It was a very important Bill. He had seen a great many tenants in Scotland, and he had found them most anxious to have the present law abolished. He was sorry to see that a very short time was allowed to the tenant in which to pay his rent. Nothing could be more injurious to the tenant than to compel him to sell his stock or grain in a hurried manner. He hoped if the Bill were passed, the landlords would not enforce too severely this power which was coupled with the abolition of hypothec.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

said, that in the part of Scotland in which he was interested a great many of the leases were drawn up in anticipation of the Law of Hypothec being done away with, and a condition of these leases was that the rent should be paid in advance. He was sure this would fall extremely harshly on small tenants, and would put them in a most difficult position. He thought it most undesirable that their Lordships should sanction this Bill. As to the unanimity said to exist in favour of the measure, he had not discovered it. It had excited but little interest, and what interest it had excited was due to the approaching Dissolution.

THE EARL OF STAIR

said, the measure had been loudly called for in Scotland for many years; and he was in favour of passing it, though it was never pushed through the House with unseemly haste. He congratulated noble Lords opposite on having at last seen the error of their ways by passing a measure they had for years opposed; and he trusted that when the Law of Distress came to be considered, as it must be sooner or later, they would be found equally ready to support its repeal.

LORD THURLOW

said, the subject must now be thoroughly understood by every Member of the House. He congratulated the Government on the prospect of this matter being soon settled, and heartily agreed with the suggestion that the Bill should be now read a second time, and that it would be possible satisfactorily to amend it in Committee.

THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)

said, he was sorry the noble Earl who had taken charge of this Bill did not accede to his request that further time should be allowed for consideration. He thought there was hardly any noble Lord who imagined until he received to-day's Minutes that this proposal would be made. He thought that was not a proper mode in which to bring on a Bill of such importance. A number of noble Lords connected with Scotland had expressed themselves favourable to this Bill; but the approaching Election had, no doubt, something to do with this. The English Peers present should ask themselves whether they were prepared, on so short a notice, to accept so important an alteration of the law relating to landlord and tenant as that proposed to be made in Scotland on the present occasion? The Law of Distress had been alluded to, and there was no doubt the abolition of the Law of Hypothec in Scotland might be urged in favour of the abolition of the Law of Distress in England and Ireland. He expressed, however, no opinion upon the Law of Distress. This question of hypothec was not a question that should be treated in a hurried manner, without allowing full opportunity for consideration.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

said, he was disposed to disagree with his noble Friend that there was anything in this Bill which required longer time for consideration on the part of their Lordships. The question of the abolition of the Law of Hypothec was one regarding which people might hold diverse views; but whether they wished to abolish it or retain it, the Bill was so simple in its elements that anyone acquainted with the Law of Hypothec would know what it was. The subject of hypothec had been so often debated that he was rather surprised the noble Earl should say it was a new one. There had hardly been a Session for many years in which this matter had not been brought before one of the Houses of Parliament, and very frequently a Bill on the subject had passed at least one of the Houses. During the present Session, at least, a Bill had passed the other House of Parliament, and noble Lords must be perfectly aware of the fact. This was not a Bill introduced into the other House by the Government; but it had their support when introduced, and he thought it was a fact of much weight that the other House had shown itself so much in favour of this Bill. It would be a pity if the circumstances of this Session were to cause them to throw away the progress which was made with the measure. He, therefore, thought there was no ground for what his noble Friend had said—namely, that there was not sufficient time to consider the subject.

EARL GRANVILLE

was not sure that the subject was so absolutely simple as to require no thought at all; but the fact that not only the other House of Parliament, but a Royal Commission, had reported in favour of the Bill, should weigh with those of their Lordships who were disposed to oppose the second reading.

On Question, resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.