MOTION FOR RETURN. (Hansard, 15 March 1880)

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE
rose to call the attention of the House to the letter of the Prime Minister to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, dated 8th March 1880; and to inquire of the Prime Minister, Whether he does not consider the monster meetings, which have taken and still continue to take place through many parts of Ireland for the avowed object of inciting tenants not to pay their just debts, but by force or fraud to despoil the landlords of their property, destructive to law and order, and therefore tending to weaken "the strength of the Nation;" and, if so, is it not the duty of an English Minister to take such measures as may be necessary to stay such proceedings? Also, to move for Returns showing what parts of Ireland are proclaimed under the Peace Preservation Act; and also to inquire whether the Peace Preservation Act does not expire on 1st of June, and, if so, whether it is prudent to defer renewing it to a time so short after the assembly of the next Parliament? The noble Lord said, that this was the fourth year in which he had felt it his duty to call the attention of the House to the unfortunate state of Ireland. He should not weary their Lordships with details of crime, but should refer to the replies given in 1878 by the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack and in 1879 by the Lord President. In 1878 he specially dwelt on the murder of Lord Leitrim and the two men with him. The noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack expressed his sympathy in the universal horror felt at that hideous crime, and stated that special measures had been taken to detect its perpetrators. Those measures entirely failed. No one had even been brought to trial for that crime. The noble and learned Earl then referred to several murders and other outrages "as a state of things that caused very great' anxiety and pain to the Government;" and then, further, he said— These are not merely isolated acts, having their origin in purely local circumstances; hut they are more or less connected with a larger organization—an organization having the double effect of leading to the commission of these crimes, and bringing to bear in the district where they are committed a system of terrorism 966 and alarm which prevents any evidence being given against the authors of the crimes."—[3 Hansard, ccxxxix. 1209.] And, further on, he continued— I believe that in the particular locality to which reference has been made the state of things is serious, and it certainly is a subject of very great anxiety to the Government. I am prepared to say on the part of the Government that, watching narrowly what is occurring, and deeply convinced that it is their duty to provide for the protection of life when in danger, whenever they are satisfied it is their duty to apply to Parliament for further powers on the subject, they will be prepared to do so."—[Ibid.] He would ask the attention of the House to this acknowledgment of dangerous, systematic, and increasing crime and its consequences, and of the apprehension of the Government that it would feel called on to demand greater powers than they possessed for its suppression. Last Session he again brought the matter before their Lordships' House, and the Lord President concluded his reply thus— Her Majesty's Government are determined that this illegal combination shall be grappled with at the outset in order to prevent it from spreading. They are determined to use every means that the law gives them to cope with the evil. They believe that the existing powers they have are sufficient, and that they will prove ample for the purpose. But should it unhappily turn out that the powers they possess are not sufficient, they will then lose no time in considering whether it is necessary to ask for further powers to enable them to do that which they certainly intend to do—namely, to restore order and maintain peace in these districts."—[3 Hansard, ccxlvii. 1698.] With these admissions before the House, it was unnecessary for him even to recall the details of serious crime undetected and, consequently, unpunished. Yet Her Majesty's Government had not applied for extra powers. He would, however, refer to a statement as to the present state of Ireland made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, than whom there could be no better authority. The Chief Secretary said— By the Land Act of 1870 a considerable portion of the property was transferred, without compensation, from one class and given to another. The effect of transfer and confiscation has been this—it has whetted the appetites of those who have received the instalment, and they are now calling for the rest."… The right hon. Gentleman went on to say— 967 And now we find hands of armed men wandering over Ireland in the dark hours of the night, threatening, and not only threatening, hut, I regret to say, perpetrating outrages on those persons who are guilty of the heinous offence of complying with their honourable obligation of paying rent. We are informed that the land is for the people, the people, I presume, being the murderers and assassins. He thought their Lordships and Her Majesty's Government would hardly require any further evidence than those acknowledgments by different Members of Her Majesty's Government (in 1878–79–80) of the deplorable and dangerous state of Ireland. "Was he not, therefore, justified in saying that the efforts of Her Majesty's Government had signally failed even to diminish crime, and in saying that they ought to have asked Parliament to give them stronger powers. In connection with the subject, he would ask their Lordships' attention to the following extract from the Charge of Baron Fitzgerald delivered at the Mayo Assizes, in which that learned Judge said:— The number of distinct cases in which bills were likely to be presented to them were 31. Those, together with five bills that had been found on a previous occasion, would constitute the criminal business of the Assizes. There was amongst those one case of homicide; hut, as his Lordship understood, the hill would be presented to them in the form of manslaughter. As they were well aware, their inquiry would he as to whether the death of the deceased was caused by the criminal act of the accused, and he need not remind them that every act in which life was lost was primâ facie criminal, and it rested with the accused, if possible, to rebut this primâ facie presumption. He regretted to say that both the calendar and the usual police return of the more considerable of the offences committed in the county since the last Assizes showed an existence of a state of things calculated to excite a feeling of very deep uneasiness. Both the documents to which he referred showed the prevalence in their county of what was commonly called agrarian crime in nearly all its forms. There seemed to be sufficient evidence of an extensive combination for the purpose of forcibly interfering to prevent the payment of rent by tenants to their landlords. This combination had manifested its existence in various ways—partly by the posting of threatening notices throughout the county prohibiting the payment of rent or demanding such reduction as those persons judge themselves entitled to, by threats of violence to those who demand the payment of rent, and to those whom it was apprehended are willing to pay it, and in some instances by actual violence to those who had discharged their legal obligation by the payment of their rent. The feeling had further displayed itself by threats against the ministers of the law, whose duty it was to serve civil bill processes for the enforcement of this obligation, by 968 the use of violence to those who had discharged that duty, and in many instances by the attempt to resist the actual discharge of that duty by the violence of riotous mobs in the face of an armed force of Constabulary assembled to protect the ministers of the law. This last phase of agrarian crime was specially dangerous, for it was plain that on such occasions a trivial circumstance might at any moment lead to a scene of blood, shed, which no man in the community could contemplate with calmness. It was manifest that this condition of things, unless vigorously suppressed, will proceed to something very lamentable indeed. There could be no doubt that the country was passing through a season of great difficulty and hardship. The pressure was felt by every class in the community. The distress had weighed very heavily indeed upon the tenant farmers, and still more heavily on those who were entirely dependent upon their labour for their support. But there was no sign of any general indifference on the part of the landlords to the special obligations to their tenantry which this hard season of distress imposed. Efforts had been made in every direction to mitigate this distress. The Government had provided further facilities for employment. Charitable contributions had been received from all parts of the United Kingdom, especially from England, from the Colonies, and even from foreign countries, for the relief of their suffering poor. There were, however, in this country, as there are everywhere, persons by whom any general distress in the country is regarded as an occasion for endeavouring to weaken and defeat the law. Those men were actuated either by the hope of personal aggrandisement or by the craving after notoriety. They existed in every country; but the peculiarity in this unfortunate country appeared to be the facility with which the people were moved by inflammatory addresses to acts of lawless violence—the readiness with which they became the dupes of reckless and designing men. He wished that the voice of a very old man might be heard amongst them to warn those poor deluded people of the ruin they would incur by obedience to those dangerous counsels. He was sure the Grand Jury would use all their influence for the maintenance of the law and the preservation of the people from crime. He was there to-day to assist them, as far as possible, in the discharge of their duty. It was the duty of the Grand Jury, and it would be the duty of the Petty Juries, to repress, so far as the present condition of the law enabled them, those acts of lawless violence in their districts. He knew they would do their duty, and he hoped the result would be the suppression of those lawless and dangerous combinations, for which no man of sense could foresee anything but disastrous failure, whose results to the unfortunate dupes no man of humanity would contemplate without feelings of pain. He would now make a few comments on the Manifesto of the noble Earl the Prime Minister of the 8th instant. The noble Earl said— The arts of agitators, which represented that England, instead of being the generous and sympathizing friend, was indifferent to the 969 dangers and sufferings of Ireland, have been defeated by the measures, at once liberal and prudent, which Parliament has almost unanimously sanctioned. He did not think that those measures were liberal or prudent. They were amply liberal in one sense—they placed fresh and heavy burdens on the already impoverished districts; liberal in the sense of giving away liberally the money of others; but, assuredly, they had not defeated the arts of the agitators. He would refer to one of the resolutions adopted at a monster meeting at a village called Ballindine, to the effect that from the contemptuous manner in which Irish demands were treated in the House of Commons, nothing short of self-government would secure to Ireland peace and prosperity. This was moved by the Rev. J. Killen, a Roman Catholic priest, and the Rev. Canon Burke was chairman. How, then, had the action of Government defeated agitators? The noble Duke the Lord President of the Council asserted last year that the Roman Catholic clergy were hostile to the Fenian and land conspiracy. They were so, in so far as Fenianism was antagonistic to priestcraft; but their platform for long had been the infallibility of priestly rule, hostility to the British connection, and that the land belonged to the people. How that theory acted was well exemplified in the life of a priest as lately given in The Pall Mall Gazette. Their pay and their power would cease if they went back from their own teaching. The noble Earl the Prime Minister in his Manifesto referred to what had been done for Ireland by the passing of measures relating to Intermediate and University Education, and he evidently expected great effects from them. He (Lord Oranmore and Browne) did not believe it would gain one Roman Catholic vote to the Conservative Government. It was to be feared this was not the right way of dealing with Ireland. If the Government determined to endow the Roman Catholic Church the endowment should have been given, not to support these Institutions, but to support the parochial clergy, who would then have been more interested in the preservation of peace and order, and less dependent on the people. The next paragraph contained the appeal of the Prime Minister to the electors of Great Britain. It spoke of a danger scarcely less dis- 970 astrous than pestilence and famine—the attempt to sever the Union with Great Britain. Her Majesty's Ministers had complained of his exaggerating the unfortunate state of Ireland; but surely this appeal disclosed a danger as grave, as widespread, as could be conceived, and one that was sapping the very foundations of the Empire—graver, when we recognized the fact that none but the conspirators themselves had such sources of information as the Prime Minister. His opponents might say, "this is only an Election squib;" but that would be a gross injustice. It was the deliberate appeal of a great statesman to his fellow-countrymen, in an hour of national danger, to come to his assistance to preserve the integrity of the Empire. It was an appeal that would be responded to by all law-abiding classes in the Kingdom. His opponents showed that they knew this by the angry tone of their replies. The nominal head of the Home Rulers (Mr. Shaw), the Leader of the Liberal Party in the other House, and the late Premier, all united in the endeavour to slur over the danger of what was no longer Home Rule, but Nationality; and they said—"Change the Land Laws." They confiscated part of the landlord's property when last they were in power, and if they returned they would take the remainder. The only hope the Opposition had of coming into power was by gaining the support of the Nationalists. With the majority the Government had in both Houses, it was unfortunate they had not asked for the necessary power to check the extension of crime and to restore peace and order. Nothing more deplorable than the pro-sent state of things could be conceived. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had said at Kendal— On an occasion like this, I think you may very fairly expect me to say in what way I think Her Majesty's Government and the Conservative Party can contribute to the permanent settlement of Irish difficulties. The first thing is to say completely and openly what we will not do. Let it be clearly understood that under no circumstances have we the slightest intention of tampering in any shape or form with proprietary rights. (Cheers.) What Ireland requires is freedom and rest from agitation. He hoped he had expressed himself moderately. He wished the Prime Minister to express the determination of the Government to put down this conspiracy in language which would have 971 the weight and force that everything had which came from him.

§ THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD
The noble Lord, I agree, addressed us in a moderate tone, but, at the same time, rather obscurely; and, though I listened to him with interest and attention, I do not understand what is the main object of his remarks. The noble Earl has frequently referred in his observations to the Question which he has placed on the Paper, and which he did me the honour to address to me. That Question is— To inquire whether the Peace Preservation Act does not expire on 1st of June, and, if so, whether it is prudent to defer renewing it to a time so short after the assembly of the next Parliament? I believe there is no doubt that the Peace Preservation Act does expire on the 1st of June next; and it is by no means imprudent to assume that the next Parliament will do its duty to the country, and that it will repeat that Act, or, if necessary, support it with stronger measures, if they are required by the circumstances of the time. That is my answer to the noble Lord, and that is the only Question which really the noble Lord has addressed to me.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE
"Will the noble Earl kindly refer to the first part of the Question?— To inquire of the Prime Minister whether he does not consider the monster meetings, which have taken and still continue to take place through many parts of Ireland for the avowed object of inciting tenants not to pay their just debts, but by force or fraud to despoil the landlords of their property, destructive to law and order, and therefore tending to weaken 'the strength of the nation;' and, if so, is it not the duty of an English Minister to take such measures as may be necessary to stay such proceedings?

§ THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD
My answer to that is, that I think these measures have been taken. I think the existing law is quite sufficiently strong to cope with the evils to which the noble Lord has referred. As I understand him, the Question has reference only to what he calls "monster meetings," the object of which 972 is to prevent the payment of rent. Now, I hold that the Peace Preservation Act and the existing law together are adapted to entirely meet that evil; and, if it were necessary, of course the Ministry, however composed, would take those steps which are necessary to protect life and property and preserve the public peace. So far as I can judge, we may indulge the hope that the excitement to which the noble Lord refers—these monster meetings to prevent the payment of rent—are rather subsiding than on the increase. If this be the case—and that is certainly the impression of the Government from the information which reaches them—I should certainly think it unnecessary and a very indiscreet thing to come down to Parliament and to ask it to increase the powers of repression under such circumstances. The chief part of the noble Lord's speech appeared to be a vindication of the step I have taken in addressing a letter to a noble Duke, who is a Member of this House; and, therefore, it is quite unnecessary for me to enter into any vindication of my motives or mode of expression. I leave my defence with confidence to the noble Lord, who has on this occasion entered into a minute criticism and vindication of that letter in a manner so gratifying to my feelings that I hope he will allow me to tender him my cordial thanks.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE
Your Lordships seem to think that it was not my intention to laud the Manifesto of the noble Earl, or that it is a great liberty for so humble a Member of your Lordships' House to laud so great a man. It is my intention to take that liberty; but the noble Earl seems so satisfied with the disorderly state of Ireland that I now have some difficulty in understanding how he stated it to be in so dangerous a state. He says he listened to my statement; but, in his reply, he ignores the description given by the Chief Secretary, and also the Charge of Baron Fitzgerald on the present state of Ireland. More deplorable features of crime and demoralization I cannot conceive. They evidence, what the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack stated a few years back when Leader of the Opposition, that the state of Ireland is not only "sad, but shameful."