Lords Sitting of 15 March 1880

MINUTES.
PRIVATE BILLS—First Reading—Rammingen's Naturalization*.
Second Reading—Katz Naturalization *.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Hypothec Abolition (Scotland) (34).
Committee—Report—East India Loan (East Indian Railway Debentures) * (36); India Stock (Powers of Attorney) * (37); Army Discipline and Regulation (Annual,) *.
Third Reading—Beer Dealers Retail Licenses * (27); Road Debts on Entailed Estates (Scotland) * (29), and passed.
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (No. 1) [43 Vict. c. 5]; Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Improvement (Scotland) Act (1875) Amendment [43 Vict. c. 2]; Indian Salaries and Allowances [43 Vict. c. 3]; Relief of Distress (Ireland) [43 Vict. c. 4].

ARMY—AUXILIARY FORCES—THE VOLUNTEER REVIEW ON EASTER MONDAY—STATEMENT.
VISCOUNT BURYsaid, it might be desirable for him to make a statement about the Volunteer Review. It would be in their Lordships' recollection that there had been some doubts as to the legality of holding the Review during the elections. Several communications had since been received, stating that very great inconvenience would ensue if this view were held to, and the Law Officers of the Crown were consequently appealed to for their opinion. There was no doubt that the Act of 1847 prohibited soldiers from parading during the time of an election; and there also was no doubt that if Regular troops were with the Volunteers at the Review they would come under the Act which he had mentioned. But it was held that if no Regular troops were to parade with the Volunteers, the latter would not come under the operation of the Act. It had been represented to his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War, that the Volunteers had entered into contracts which they would be unable to perform if a Review were not held, and that general inconvenience would be occasioned. It had therefore been decided that a Review should be held, and that the Volunteer Regulations, which alone stood in the way, should be suspended for that purpose. It would not be necessary to bring any Bill into Parliament on the subject.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEcould not help thinking it was to be regretted that the opinion of Her Majesty's Government on this subject had not been arrived at sooner, because very great disappointment and inconvenience had been occasioned by the delay. Precisely a similar inconvenience arose, he thought, last year in regard to the position of the Army Reserve. He believed the War Office had been advised that the Army Reserve could not legally volunteer in the event of an emergency. Subsequently however, it was found that that step—which would have avoided immense trouble, and particularly the necessity for indiscriminate drafting from other regiments—might have been taken without any departure from the law.

HYPOTHEC ABOLITION (SCOTLAND) BILL—(No. 34.)
(The Earl of Haddington.)
HYPOTHEC ABOLITION (SCOTLAND) BILL—(No. 34.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, before the noble Earl moved the second reading of the Bill, he wished to point out the objectionable manner in which it had been taken. They had now arrived at a late period of the Session, when the attendance of noble Lords was very much limited, and therefore he hoped the noble Earl would not proceed with the measure. The Bill was one which entirely altered the whole relation between landlord and tenant in Scotland from one end of the country to the other; and he thought that without proper Notice it was not expedient to proceed with such a measure at a time when a great number of noble Lords who were connected with Scotland were not present, and were not likely to be in attendance before the Dissolution. The House sat most unexpectedly on Saturday, and up to then no Notice whatever had been given that it was intended to move the second reading of the Bill that day, so that, practically, a great number of noble Lords had had no Notice of the Bill. He, therefore, appealed to the noble Earl not to proceed with the second reading.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONmost sincerely hoped that the noble Earl would proceed with the Bill, which was one which very much affected all classes in Scotland. It affected the landlords, and it affected the tenant farmers. It was not now for the first time brought under the consideration of Parliament. It had been discussed during several Sessions of Parliament, and several Bills had been brought forward attempting to deal with the subject. He thought there were only two clauses in the Bill. He believed there was more unanimity of feeling in support of the Bill among all the Members of Parliament connected with Scotland than there had been with regard to any other measure for many Sessions past. The Bill had been very much looked for by the people of Scotland, and he should be very sorry if his noble Friend behind
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  him should agree to the proposal of his noble Friend the Chairman of Committees. He believed the Bill would require some Amendments; but those Amendments could be very easily put into the Bill in Committee.
  THE EARL OF HADDINGTON,in moving that the Bill be now read, a second time, said, it applied only to agricultural and not to urban populations. It reserved the rights of all existing landlords, and the time fixed for it to come into operation would be Martinmas, 1881. By the 2nd clause the landlord, when six months' rent was due, could take the tenant before the Sheriff, and obtain security for the payment of the rent; and if 12 months' rent was due, he could proceed before the Sheriff to have the tenant removed; but he could not have him removed without having given 14 days' notice of his intention. It had been proposed that the 2nd clause should be amended; but the Amendment would not in any way affect the principle of the Bill, as it applied entirely to procedure. He had briefly stated what were the objects of the Bill; and he hoped their Lordships would give it a second reading without a division, and let it pass to the other House. The subject was one in which he believed the landlords of Scotland to be unanimous; and it was also a Bill in which the tenant farmers in the South of Scotland felt very strongly.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Haddington.)
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEwas bound to say that it was quite clear the opinion of the great majority of the tenant farmers was in favour of the object of the Bill. Every county of Scotland, without distinction of Party, had returned Members who were prepared to abolish the Law of Hypothec. He gave his hearty support to the second reading. It was quite clear, that although the landlord had no right to be placed in a better position, he ought not to be placed in a worse one than other creditors. He should so far be placed in the same position as other creditors, that he would have a summary and quick process in his hand against the tenant. He did not know whether the arrangement proposed in the Bill quite met the ease; but that was a matter which he would look for being dealt with rather in Com-

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  mittee than on the second reading. In the meantime, he concluded by giving the Bill his cordial support.
  LORD BLANTYREsaid, that England had, for some time past, imitated the laws of Scotland—as in their County Courts copied from the Scotch Sheriff Courts—and England would do well to imitate the Scotch Law of Hypothec; at least, it seemed a much milder law than that of "distress" The right of hypothec gave the landlord a security over the crop of each year for the rent of that year, and over the cattle and stocking on the farm for the current year's rent; but crop of 1801, for instance, could not be hypothecated for rent of 1800, because the creditor would, in such case, have no means of redress, and the interest of the landlord would be extended further than the principle on which hypothec was founded would support it. A reasonable security, such as hypothec afforded, was favourable to the improvement of agriculture, and its abolition would be injurious. Leases for 19 years would no longer be the rule—a manure merchant could drop a bad customer; but the engagements of a 19 years' lease were not so easily put aside, so would not be entered into. Tenants would not have sufficient time allowed them to pay their rents out of produce. The desire for the abolition of hypothec was by no means general; on property he (Lord Blantyre) had in the West of Scotland, his tenants desired to maintain it. He thought that, in the interests of tenants generally in Scotland, the abolition of hypothec would prove a mistake, and, therefore, he objected to the second reading of the Bill.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENsupported the second reading of the Bill. He understood the noble Earl who moved it (the Earl of Haddington) to say that the Bill was regarded with general approval, both amongst the landlords and tenants in the South of Scotland. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) could tell them that it was not regarded in the North of Scotland with less approval than in the South. He was sorry he could not agree with the observations of his noble Friend (Lord Blantyre) regarding the doubtful character of the benefit they were about to confer upon the tenant farmers. It had been often remarked that the Law of Hypothec had done great things in the way of en-
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  couraging that class which their Lord-ships were desirous should be encouraged—namely, the small tenant farmers of Scotland; but it was also to be remembered that the law had encouraged many small farmers to undertake farming with insufficient capital. Recent experience had shown abundantly that when this was the case, it caused much difficulty, loss, and damage to the farmers, as well as to the landlords. He was one of those who looked forward with perfect confidence and satisfaction to the passing of this Bill. He knew it was regarded with great approval in the county with which he was more particularly connected.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, he would do nothing in opposition to the Bill; but he entirely agreed with the remark of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees about bringing it in at the very last moment. It was only this morning that he heard of it. A matter of such importance to the Kingdom of Scotland ought not to be dealt with so hurriedly.
  LORD DENMANentirely disagreed with the Chairman of Committees, and held it was the duty of those who had brought the Bill forward to press it. It was a very important Bill. He had seen a great many tenants in Scotland, and he had found them most anxious to have the present law abolished. He was sorry to see that a very short time was allowed to the tenant in which to pay his rent. Nothing could be more injurious to the tenant than to compel him to sell his stock or grain in a hurried manner. He hoped if the Bill were passed, the landlords would not enforce too severely this power which was coupled with the abolition of hypothec.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that in the part of Scotland in which he was interested a great many of the leases were drawn up in anticipation of the Law of Hypothec being done away with, and a condition of these leases was that the rent should be paid in advance. He was sure this would fall extremely harshly on small tenants, and would put them in a most difficult position. He thought it most undesirable that their Lordships should sanction this Bill. As to the unanimity said to exist in favour of the measure, he had not discovered it. It had excited but little interest, and what interest it had

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  excited was due to the approaching Dissolution.
  THE EARL OF STAIRsaid, the measure had been loudly called for in Scotland for many years; and he was in favour of passing it, though it was never pushed through the House with unseemly haste. He congratulated noble Lords opposite on having at last seen the error of their ways by passing a measure they had for years opposed; and he trusted that when the Law of Distress came to be considered, as it must be sooner or later, they would be found equally ready to support its repeal.
  LORD THURLOWsaid, the subject must now be thoroughly understood by every Member of the House. He congratulated the Government on the prospect of this matter being soon settled, and heartily agreed with the suggestion that the Bill should be now read a second time, and that it would be possible satisfactorily to amend it in Committee.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he was sorry the noble Earl who had taken charge of this Bill did not accede to his request that further time should be allowed for consideration. He thought there was hardly any noble Lord who imagined until he received to-day's Minutes that this proposal would be made. He thought that was not a proper mode in which to bring on a Bill of such importance. A number of noble Lords connected with Scotland had expressed themselves favourable to this Bill; but the approaching Election had, no doubt, something to do with this. The English Peers present should ask themselves whether they were prepared, on so short a notice, to accept so important an alteration of the law relating to landlord and tenant as that proposed to be made in Scotland on the present occasion? The Law of Distress had been alluded to, and there was no doubt the abolition of the Law of Hypothec in Scotland might be urged in favour of the abolition of the Law of Distress in England and Ireland. He expressed, however, no opinion upon the Law of Distress. This question of hypothec was not a question that should be treated in a hurried manner, without allowing full opportunity for consideration.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was disposed to disagree with his noble
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  Friend that there was anything in this Bill which required longer time for consideration on the part of their Lordships. The question of the abolition of the Law of Hypothec was one regarding which people might hold diverse views; but whether they wished to abolish it or retain it, the Bill was so simple in its elements that anyone acquainted with the Law of Hypothec would know what it was. The subject of hypothec had been so often debated that he was rather surprised the noble Earl should say it was a new one. There had hardly been a Session for many years in which this matter had not been brought before one of the Houses of Parliament, and very frequently a Bill on the subject had passed at least one of the Houses. During the present Session, at least, a Bill had passed the other House of Parliament, and noble Lords must be perfectly aware of the fact. This was not a Bill introduced into the other House by the Government; but it had their support when introduced, and he thought it was a fact of much weight that the other House had shown itself so much in favour of this Bill. It would be a pity if the circumstances of this Session were to cause them to throw away the progress which was made with the measure. He, therefore, thought there was no ground for what his noble Friend had said—namely, that there was not sufficient time to consider the subject.
  EARL GRANVILLEwas not sure that the subject was so absolutely simple as to require no thought at all; but the fact that not only the other House of Parliament, but a Royal Commission, had reported in favour of the Bill, should weigh with those of their Lordships who were disposed to oppose the second reading.
  On Question, resolved in the affirmative.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ROYAL SCHOOL OF MINES.

  MOTION FOR, A PAPER.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET THE DUKE OF SOMERSET moved for—
  "Copy of Correspondence relating to the transfer to South Kensington of the Metallurgical Department which has been conducted in Jermyn Street since the year 1851."
  The noble Duke pointed out that many competent persons entertained the greatest objections to the removal of the Geological Museum and Mining School from Jermyn Street. It would be a great misfortune if they destroyed a Museum which had done good work. He entered into some details, and said that when Parliament re-assembled he should propose the appointment of a Committee on this subject.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON,in reply, said, he was not prepared to follow the noble Duke into all the details which he had laid before the House; and he thought the noble Duke would have consulted the convenience of their Lordships if he had deferred his speech until the Correspondence was before them. It was not fair to the Department over which he presided to have insinuations made at a time when he could not have an opportunity of replying, as he certainly should reply at the proper time. When that time came, he should be able to defend the action taken by the Department under his direction, as the Museum had been removed in pursuance of the recommendation of the Royal Commission; and he should be much surprised if the judgment formed by the House was not identical with that which he had formed. He need hardly say he had no objection to the production of the Correspondence. The noble Duke spoke of a handsome offer made on this subject, which application, it seemed, had received a curt reply. He should very much like to see the reply.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he had not got the answer. The Papers to which he had referred were printed most of them in the year 1871.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had supposed the noble Duke had seen the reply, or he would not have criticized it. He should like to know the terms in which the application was made.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he had not got it.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: No; because I doubt whether that application ever was made.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, the Royal Commission was presided over by the Duke of Devonshire, and among its members were Professor Huxley, Professor Henry Smith, Pro-
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  fessor Stokes, Dr. Sharpey, Sir James Kay-Shuttleworth, and Sir John Lubbock. The Commission found that the following Institutions were under the same roof in Jermyn Street:—The School of Mines, the Geological Survey, the Mining Record Office, and the Museum of Practical Geology. The arrangement was unsatisfactory in many ways. There were no adequate laboratories and no sufficient accommodation. Besides this, no Chair of Mathematics was attached to the School of Mines. The number of officers of the Survey had quintupled within the past 20 years, and the accommodation had not been increased. Persons, papers, and collections were all badly lodged. Under these circumstances, the Commission recommended that the Jermyn Street building be given up to the Museum and to the officers of the Survey; the School of Chemistry, which was in a separate building in Oxford Street, and the School of Mines being transferred to South Kensington, where there was ample space and where new buildings were in progress. These Institutions were not, as the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) suggested, to be mingled in scientific chaos with the Schools of Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering. What was proposed by the Commission was that the preliminary courses of mechanical drawing, mathematics, and physical science should be common to both; but the different sections of the School of Science which the Commission desired thus to establish at South Kensington were not to be in any sense confused together. He was anxious to make it clear that the conclusion of the Royal Commission had been arrived at after full deliberation, and not precipitately, or in ignorance of the facts.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he understood there was no objection to the production of the Papers.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, there was no objection to produce whatever Correspondence there was.
  Motion agreed to.
  Copy of correspondence relating to the transfer to South Kensington of the Metallurgical Department which has been conducted in Jermyn Street since the year 1851: Ordered to be laid before the House.—(The Duke of Somerset.)

PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT.

  MOTION FOR RETURN.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNErose to call the attention of the House to the letter of the Prime Minister to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, dated 8th March 1880; and to inquire of the Prime Minister, Whether he does not consider the monster meetings, which have taken and still continue to take place through many parts of Ireland for the avowed object of inciting tenants not to pay their just debts, but by force or fraud to despoil the landlords of their property, destructive to law and order, and therefore tending to weaken "the strength of the Nation;" and, if so, is it not the duty of an English Minister to take such measures as may be necessary to stay such proceedings? Also, to move for Returns showing what parts of Ireland are proclaimed under the Peace Preservation Act; and also to inquire whether the Peace Preservation Act does not expire on 1st of June, and, if so, whether it is prudent to defer renewing it to a time so short after the assembly of the next Parliament? The noble Lord said, that this was the fourth year in which he had felt it his duty to call the attention of the House to the unfortunate state of Ireland. He should not weary their Lordships with details of crime, but should refer to the replies given in 1878 by the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack and in 1879 by the Lord President. In 1878 he specially dwelt on the murder of Lord Leitrim and the two men with him. The noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack expressed his sympathy in the universal horror felt at that hideous crime, and stated that special measures had been taken to detect its perpetrators. Those measures entirely failed. No one had even been brought to trial for that crime. The noble and learned Earl then referred to several murders and other outrages "as a state of things that caused very great' anxiety and pain to the Government;" and then, further, he said—
  "These are not merely isolated acts, having their origin in purely local circumstances; hut they are more or less connected with a larger organization—an organization having the double effect of leading to the commission of these crimes, and bringing to bear in the district where they are committed a system of terrorism
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  and alarm which prevents any evidence being given against the authors of the crimes."—[3 Hansard, ccxxxix. 1209.]
  And, further on, he continued—
  "I believe that in the particular locality to which reference has been made the state of things is serious, and it certainly is a subject of very great anxiety to the Government. I am prepared to say on the part of the Government that, watching narrowly what is occurring, and deeply convinced that it is their duty to provide for the protection of life when in danger, whenever they are satisfied it is their duty to apply to Parliament for further powers on the subject, they will be prepared to do so."—[Ibid.]
  He would ask the attention of the House to this acknowledgment of dangerous, systematic, and increasing crime and its consequences, and of the apprehension of the Government that it would feel called on to demand greater powers than they possessed for its suppression. Last Session he again brought the matter before their Lordships' House, and the Lord President concluded his reply thus—
  "Her Majesty's Government are determined that this illegal combination shall be grappled with at the outset in order to prevent it from spreading. They are determined to use every means that the law gives them to cope with the evil. They believe that the existing powers they have are sufficient, and that they will prove ample for the purpose. But should it unhappily turn out that the powers they possess are not sufficient, they will then lose no time in considering whether it is necessary to ask for further powers to enable them to do that which they certainly intend to do—namely, to restore order and maintain peace in these districts."—[3 Hansard, ccxlvii. 1698.]
  With these admissions before the House, it was unnecessary for him even to recall the details of serious crime undetected and, consequently, unpunished. Yet Her Majesty's Government had not applied for extra powers. He would, however, refer to a statement as to the present state of Ireland made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, than whom there could be no better authority. The Chief Secretary said—
  "By the Land Act of 1870 a considerable portion of the property was transferred, without compensation, from one class and given to another. The effect of transfer and confiscation has been this—it has whetted the appetites of those who have received the instalment, and they are now calling for the rest."…
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say—

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  "And now we find hands of armed men wandering over Ireland in the dark hours of the night, threatening, and not only threatening, hut, I regret to say, perpetrating outrages on those persons who are guilty of the heinous offence of complying with their honourable obligation of paying rent. We are informed that the land is for the people, the people, I presume, being the murderers and assassins."
  He thought their Lordships and Her Majesty's Government would hardly require any further evidence than those acknowledgments by different Members of Her Majesty's Government (in 1878–79–80) of the deplorable and dangerous state of Ireland. "Was he not, therefore, justified in saying that the efforts of Her Majesty's Government had signally failed even to diminish crime, and in saying that they ought to have asked Parliament to give them stronger powers. In connection with the subject, he would ask their Lordships' attention to the following extract from the Charge of Baron Fitzgerald delivered at the Mayo Assizes, in which that learned Judge said:—
  "The number of distinct cases in which bills were likely to be presented to them were 31. Those, together with five bills that had been found on a previous occasion, would constitute the criminal business of the Assizes. There was amongst those one case of homicide; hut, as his Lordship understood, the hill would be presented to them in the form of manslaughter. As they were well aware, their inquiry would he as to whether the death of the deceased was caused by the criminal act of the accused, and he need not remind them that every act in which life was lost was primâ facie criminal, and it rested with the accused, if possible, to rebut this primâ facie presumption. He regretted to say that both the calendar and the usual police return of the more considerable of the offences committed in the county since the last Assizes showed an existence of a state of things calculated to excite a feeling of very deep uneasiness. Both the documents to which he referred showed the prevalence in their county of what was commonly called agrarian crime in nearly all its forms. There seemed to be sufficient evidence of an extensive combination for the purpose of forcibly interfering to prevent the payment of rent by tenants to their landlords. This combination had manifested its existence in various ways—partly by the posting of threatening notices throughout the county prohibiting the payment of rent or demanding such reduction as those persons judge themselves entitled to, by threats of violence to those who demand the payment of rent, and to those whom it was apprehended are willing to pay it, and in some instances by actual violence to those who had discharged their legal obligation by the payment of their rent. The feeling had further displayed itself by threats against the ministers of the law, whose duty it was to serve civil bill processes for the enforcement of this obligation, by
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  the use of violence to those who had discharged that duty, and in many instances by the attempt to resist the actual discharge of that duty by the violence of riotous mobs in the face of an armed force of Constabulary assembled to protect the ministers of the law. This last phase of agrarian crime was specially dangerous, for it was plain that on such occasions a trivial circumstance might at any moment lead to a scene of blood, shed, which no man in the community could contemplate with calmness. It was manifest that this condition of things, unless vigorously suppressed, will proceed to something very lamentable indeed. There could be no doubt that the country was passing through a season of great difficulty and hardship. The pressure was felt by every class in the community. The distress had weighed very heavily indeed upon the tenant farmers, and still more heavily on those who were entirely dependent upon their labour for their support. But there was no sign of any general indifference on the part of the landlords to the special obligations to their tenantry which this hard season of distress imposed. Efforts had been made in every direction to mitigate this distress. The Government had provided further facilities for employment. Charitable contributions had been received from all parts of the United Kingdom, especially from England, from the Colonies, and even from foreign countries, for the relief of their suffering poor. There were, however, in this country, as there are everywhere, persons by whom any general distress in the country is regarded as an occasion for endeavouring to weaken and defeat the law. Those men were actuated either by the hope of personal aggrandisement or by the craving after notoriety. They existed in every country; but the peculiarity in this unfortunate country appeared to be the facility with which the people were moved by inflammatory addresses to acts of lawless violence—the readiness with which they became the dupes of reckless and designing men. He wished that the voice of a very old man might be heard amongst them to warn those poor deluded people of the ruin they would incur by obedience to those dangerous counsels. He was sure the Grand Jury would use all their influence for the maintenance of the law and the preservation of the people from crime. He was there to-day to assist them, as far as possible, in the discharge of their duty. It was the duty of the Grand Jury, and it would be the duty of the Petty Juries, to repress, so far as the present condition of the law enabled them, those acts of lawless violence in their districts. He knew they would do their duty, and he hoped the result would be the suppression of those lawless and dangerous combinations, for which no man of sense could foresee anything but disastrous failure, whose results to the unfortunate dupes no man of humanity would contemplate without feelings of pain."
  He would now make a few comments on the Manifesto of the noble Earl the Prime Minister of the 8th instant. The noble Earl said—
  "The arts of agitators, which represented that England, instead of being the generous and sympathizing friend, was indifferent to the

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  dangers and sufferings of Ireland, have been defeated by the measures, at once liberal and prudent, which Parliament has almost unanimously sanctioned."
  He did not think that those measures were liberal or prudent. They were amply liberal in one sense—they placed fresh and heavy burdens on the already impoverished districts; liberal in the sense of giving away liberally the money of others; but, assuredly, they had not defeated the arts of the agitators. He would refer to one of the resolutions adopted at a monster meeting at a village called Ballindine, to the effect that from the contemptuous manner in which Irish demands were treated in the House of Commons, nothing short of self-government would secure to Ireland peace and prosperity. This was moved by the Rev. J. Killen, a Roman Catholic priest, and the Rev. Canon Burke was chairman. How, then, had the action of Government defeated agitators? The noble Duke the Lord President of the Council asserted last year that the Roman Catholic clergy were hostile to the Fenian and land conspiracy. They were so, in so far as Fenianism was antagonistic to priestcraft; but their platform for long had been the infallibility of priestly rule, hostility to the British connection, and that the land belonged to the people. How that theory acted was well exemplified in the life of a priest as lately given in The Pall Mall Gazette. Their pay and their power would cease if they went back from their own teaching. The noble Earl the Prime Minister in his Manifesto referred to what had been done for Ireland by the passing of measures relating to Intermediate and University Education, and he evidently expected great effects from them. He (Lord Oranmore and Browne) did not believe it would gain one Roman Catholic vote to the Conservative Government. It was to be feared this was not the right way of dealing with Ireland. If the Government determined to endow the Roman Catholic Church the endowment should have been given, not to support these Institutions, but to support the parochial clergy, who would then have been more interested in the preservation of peace and order, and less dependent on the people. The next paragraph contained the appeal of the Prime Minister to the electors of Great Britain. It spoke of a danger scarcely less dis-
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  astrous than pestilence and famine—the attempt to sever the Union with Great Britain. Her Majesty's Ministers had complained of his exaggerating the unfortunate state of Ireland; but surely this appeal disclosed a danger as grave, as widespread, as could be conceived, and one that was sapping the very foundations of the Empire—graver, when we recognized the fact that none but the conspirators themselves had such sources of information as the Prime Minister. His opponents might say, "this is only an Election squib;" but that would be a gross injustice. It was the deliberate appeal of a great statesman to his fellow-countrymen, in an hour of national danger, to come to his assistance to preserve the integrity of the Empire. It was an appeal that would be responded to by all law-abiding classes in the Kingdom. His opponents showed that they knew this by the angry tone of their replies. The nominal head of the Home Rulers (Mr. Shaw), the Leader of the Liberal Party in the other House, and the late Premier, all united in the endeavour to slur over the danger of what was no longer Home Rule, but Nationality; and they said—"Change the Land Laws." They confiscated part of the landlord's property when last they were in power, and if they returned they would take the remainder. The only hope the Opposition had of coming into power was by gaining the support of the Nationalists. With the majority the Government had in both Houses, it was unfortunate they had not asked for the necessary power to check the extension of crime and to restore peace and order. Nothing more deplorable than the pro-sent state of things could be conceived. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had said at Kendal—
  "On an occasion like this, I think you may very fairly expect me to say in what way I think Her Majesty's Government and the Conservative Party can contribute to the permanent settlement of Irish difficulties. The first thing is to say completely and openly what we will not do. Let it be clearly understood that under no circumstances have we the slightest intention of tampering in any shape or form with proprietary rights. (Cheers.) What Ireland requires is freedom and rest from agitation."
  He hoped he had expressed himself moderately. He wished the Prime Minister to express the determination of the Government to put down this conspiracy in language which would have

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  the weight and force that everything had which came from him.
  Moved, "That there he laid before this House, Returns showing what parts of Ireland are proclaimed under the Peace Preservation Act."—(The Lord Oranmore and Browne.)
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: The noble Lord, I agree, addressed us in a moderate tone, but, at the same time, rather obscurely; and, though I listened to him with interest and attention, I do not understand what is the main object of his remarks. The noble Earl has frequently referred in his observations to the Question which he has placed on the Paper, and which he did me the honour to address to me. That Question is—
  "To inquire whether the Peace Preservation Act does not expire on 1st of June, and, if so, whether it is prudent to defer renewing it to a time so short after the assembly of the next Parliament?"
  I believe there is no doubt that the Peace Preservation Act does expire on the 1st of June next; and it is by no means imprudent to assume that the next Parliament will do its duty to the country, and that it will repeat that Act, or, if necessary, support it with stronger measures, if they are required by the circumstances of the time. That is my answer to the noble Lord, and that is the only Question which really the noble Lord has addressed to me.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: "Will the noble Earl kindly refer to the first part of the Question?—
  "To inquire of the Prime Minister whether he does not consider the monster meetings, which have taken and still continue to take place through many parts of Ireland for the avowed object of inciting tenants not to pay their just debts, but by force or fraud to despoil the landlords of their property, destructive to law and order, and therefore tending to weaken 'the strength of the nation;' and, if so, is it not the duty of an English Minister to take such measures as may be necessary to stay such proceedings?"
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My answer to that is, that I think these measures have been taken. I think the existing law is quite sufficiently strong to cope with the evils to which the noble Lord has referred. As I understand him, the Question has reference only to what he calls "monster meetings," the object of which
  972
  is to prevent the payment of rent. Now, I hold that the Peace Preservation Act and the existing law together are adapted to entirely meet that evil; and, if it were necessary, of course the Ministry, however composed, would take those steps which are necessary to protect life and property and preserve the public peace. So far as I can judge, we may indulge the hope that the excitement to which the noble Lord refers—these monster meetings to prevent the payment of rent—are rather subsiding than on the increase. If this be the case—and that is certainly the impression of the Government from the information which reaches them—I should certainly think it unnecessary and a very indiscreet thing to come down to Parliament and to ask it to increase the powers of repression under such circumstances. The chief part of the noble Lord's speech appeared to be a vindication of the step I have taken in addressing a letter to a noble Duke, who is a Member of this House; and, therefore, it is quite unnecessary for me to enter into any vindication of my motives or mode of expression. I leave my defence with confidence to the noble Lord, who has on this occasion entered into a minute criticism and vindication of that letter in a manner so gratifying to my feelings that I hope he will allow me to tender him my cordial thanks.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: Your Lordships seem to think that it was not my intention to laud the Manifesto of the noble Earl, or that it is a great liberty for so humble a Member of your Lordships' House to laud so great a man. It is my intention to take that liberty; but the noble Earl seems so satisfied with the disorderly state of Ireland that I now have some difficulty in understanding how he stated it to be in so dangerous a state. He says he listened to my statement; but, in his reply, he ignores the description given by the Chief Secretary, and also the Charge of Baron Fitzgerald on the present state of Ireland. More deplorable features of crime and demoralization I cannot conceive. They evidence, what the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack stated a few years back when Leader of the Opposition, that the state of Ireland is not only "sad, but shameful."
  Motion agreed to.

THE EASTERN QUESTION.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD CAMPBELL,in rising to call attention to the policy of Her Majesty's Government on the Eastern Question since the autumn of 1874; and to move,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Copy of the letter from the late Ameer of Afghanistan to the Sultan, dated 19th January 1878,"
  said: The House will readily suppose that I should not be inclined to go on at such an hour with such a Motion unless the days of this Parliament were numbered. When I postponed it, on the ground that the noble Marquess the Secretary of State was absent, the Government had not announced a step of so much political and military skill as that of withdrawing from a Brighton field-day under the cover of a General Election—a cover which, to the amazement of the House, we hear to-day is utterly inadequate. The noble Marquess, it is known to me, will not return before the Dissolution, and I have no option as to going on without him. For two reasons, such a course is unobjectionable, although, perhaps, it is unusual. I shall advert mainly to transactions with which the noble Marquess was not connected by his present Office. His vindication of the Government on foreign policy is in our hands already. It was given at Manchester with much elaboration; no doubt, with much effect. It appeared in the morning journals of October 18th. It was not unworthy of himself, and little could be added to it. But there is something far more grave to be encountered. It is thrown out by various supporters of the Government that we are not entitled to look back on the transactions which have all flowed from the autumn of 1874, with a view to ascertain their merit or demerit. Why not? You cannot criticize a Government upon the future; you cannot on the pending; it is only on the past they are assailable; Is this not the time? It is the very time. If last Session the attempt had happened, the Government might have replied that until the Russian occupation was disposed of any general discussion of the kind was calculated to impede their labours to abridge it. My Lords, a great drama closed together
  974
  with the Russian occupation, and now admits of being reflected on. But the electors must review the foreign policy of the last five years in order to arrive at a judicial verdict on the conduct of the Government. Can it be said that the very question to be in a few weeks determined by the people is inappropriate and obsolete in Parliament already? Such language among friends of the Government would seem at first to be the paradox of terror and the sophistry of conscience. But the noble Earl the Prime Minister renounces it. With the impatience of a practised gladiator, he has complained from time to time that accusation was too fragmentary; that no Member of the Opposition would bring his policy under a general review; and even that no adverse Resolution was submitted to your Lordships. Now, as to an adverse Resolution, it seemed a doubtful thing whether an Opposition in an avowed minority should offer them. It was only done here on foreign policy in 1850 and 1864 by a Party whose majority was certain. But the Motion I propose is for a document which must be utterly obnoxious to the Government; which stigmatizes in the gravest terms their conduct on the Eastern Question; which brings before you the late Ameer in an attitude of protest verging upon scorn as regards the mode in which their infidelity to Treaties had estranged him from Great Britain. It might, therefore, well suggest resistance to the Government. At least, it ought not to be adopted till it is first shown that their policy upon the whole of these transactions is far, indeed, from irreproachable.
  The only title I can urge to the indulgence of the House is that I began to follow the vicissitudes of the present Eastern Question two Sessions before they occupied the general attention, and continued to pursue them during one, at least, when others hardly did so. The first proposition I am anxious to uphold is that the Government were responsible, in a great degree, for the War between Russia and the Porte, which began in April, 1877. If I do not thoroughly establish it, it will only be because the desire to economize the patience of the House forces me to hurry over and mix up the facts, which, more distinctly traced and separately handled, would be sure to warrant the conclusion I have pointed to. Now, the union of Austria,

  975
  Germany, and Russia, in a sense hostile to the Ottoman Empire, has been attested by the noble Earl, at that time Secretary of State, who often sits on the Cross Benches. It may fairly be contended that a vigilant diplomacy would have succeeded in averting it. When, however, it appeared in the Identic Note of the three Powers announcing their intention to negotiate Commercial Treaties with the Vassal Principalities against the wishes of the Sultan, dated October 20, 1874, it was possible, at least, to check or counterbalance it. It might have been counterbalanced by some display among the Western Powers. It might have been checked by a particular and strong appeal to Austria, which Great Britain—if only from the Treaty of April 15, 1856—had every title to resort to. Nothing was attempted. Instead of being detached from the new and ill-omened alliance, Austria was induced to take the lead in negotiating with the Vassal Principalities; to leave Russia and Germany Behind her in paving the way for the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire. The Herzegovinian insurrection, which rapidly succeeded, seemed, therefore, if not to be occasioned by her wishes, at least to start under her auspices. The discontented elements within the territory of the Sultan were thus enabled, in some degree, to look on Austria as a standard-bearer. Nor can it be disputed that during the autumn of 1875, by means of General Rodich, the Viceroy of Dalmatia, considerable aid was given indirectly to the Herzegovinian movement. In the spring of 1876 a great opportunity of influencing Germany to restore the peace of European Turkey was abandoned. The Berlin Memorandum, the Servian War, and other troubles followed. At the Conference of December in Constantinople, which, perhaps, it was desirable to enter by acceding to the scheme of General Ignatieff, we lost all grasp over the Sublime Porte, as regards the decisions it might ultimately come to, and gave Russia a considerable pretext for hostilities. When I condemn the scheme of General Ignatieff, I remind the House that the Ottoman despatch of January 25, 1877, which canvassed it exhaustively, which has long been in our hands, which I have brought down with me this evening, had no reply from either Russia or Great Britain. In this
  976
  manner war became very difficult to guard against. The unsuccessful Conference for a time threw the British Embassy into abeyance, and withdrew it altogether, so that the Sultan was left alone to contend with any diplomatic propositions Russia might address to him. His liability to error, of course, was very much increased. But during the months of February and March, 1877, it was not too late to bring the restraining voice of Berlin to bear in some degree upon the counsels of St. Petersburg. It was not too late to declare in this, or in the other House of Parliament, such general adherence to the Treaties of 1856 as might have led the Czar to pause before resolving to forget them. It was not too late to take advantage of the new latitude established in the Articles of 1871, and send the British Fleet into the Dardanelles before war commenced, to exercise a guiding and admonitory influence on both the possible belligerents. It was not too late to despatch a special Mission to St. Petersburg—far more required than that which had just left Constantinople—to uphold the Czar himself, who, as it is now revealed, was struggling against the warlike counsels which enveloped him. If it be true—as most probably the Government will urge—that within Great Britain many forces lured him to invasion, the class of measures I have pointed to was far more binding, far more indispensable than otherwise it would have been. As all such precautions were omitted, and some of them repelled, it cannot be denied that the Government had great responsibility for the decision to cross the Pruth which ultimately followed, which led to the disquietude of Europe, and brought this country face to face with the alternative of either hazard or dishonour. Some noble Lords, perhaps, are scattered in the House who look with more indulgence on the decision of the Czar from certain grounds with which it is endeavoured to associate it. The answer to them—which I can only glance at—is that the Russian movement on Constantinople began before the fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1453, before Ottoman dominion was established, before Russia could affect to represent the Cross, or to encroach upon the Crescent, when she directed Armies towards the Bosphorus. Whatever view these noble Lords may entertain,

  977
  the avowed object of the Government was to avert the war to the last moment. They did not share in any such interpretation. They recognized its danger and they proclaimed its illegality.
  The period which now begins is far less intricate and tedious than that which I have passed over. However fraught with tragical events, it need not occupy the House for many minutes. The policy of the Government is summed up in the despatch of May 1, the despatch of May 6, the Proclamation of neutrality, and the inaction which succeeded them. The latter is the point which requires attention at this moment. If it was open to the Government to despatch the Fleet to Constantinople before war began, it was still more admissible when the rupture was precipitated. Among the practical advantages of such a measure would have been to restore the power of the British Embassy injuriously paralyzed, and thus to rescue the Sublime Porte from many errors and corruptions which weighed upon it in the struggle; to lay the ground for mediation, possibly to close the war before Plevna had been taken. It was the course which Lord Palmerston insisted on, in nearly the same circumstances, in 1853, when no Treaties called for its adoption. At the time in question, it was the course which Treaties made imperatively binding. In point of fact, it was a cheap and prudent method of adhering to them, although not wholly unaccompanied by risk, and, therefore, not entirely destitute of merit. It was no departure from neutrality; and, therefore, the Proclamation—undignified, uncalled for, as it may justly be considered—did nothing to preclude it. When the Fleet did advance, in the midst of circumstances which I am approaching, the Proclamation of neutrality continued. It was no more a bar in May than the succeeding January, although in either month it was an error. The Session and the autumn passed away. Remonstrances arose. Constantinople was endangered. Popular opinion was excited. In the beginning of 1878, debates were frequent in the Legislature. On the 26th of January, the Fleet ascended to the Dardanelles, with the concurrence of the Sultan. It was withdrawn by a telegram. In the opinion of those who watched these critical events upon the spot, its withdrawal
  978
  led the Russian Armies to San Stefano, and paralyzed the efforts by which they might have been arrested. On February 9 the Fleet advanced a second time, on this occasion in defiance of the Porte, whoso confidence in British sympathy and British support had been inevitably lessened. If the Fleet withdrew to bring the hostile Army to their gates, there was little reason to assume that it came back under the sway of irreproachable benevolence. In this manner the House is led to see that the Treaty of San Stefano, which followed, is the immediate offspring of the Government, although, no doubt, they did their utmost to reduce it.
  On the 28th of March the Secretary of State announced his resignation. A new era was anticipated. On the 1st of April such hopes became more sanguine from a much admired despatch, which it was judicious to issue on that day, which ought to have appeared before 2 in the afternoon, or whatever hour is supposed to check the period of licensed jocularity; so little did it ultimately sway the action of the Government. We are now in the season of preparatory measures for the Congress. I censure none of them, and do not even think with those who, on grounds of scrupulous legality, objected to the despatch of Indian troops to Malta. It seems a cumbrous and fantastic method of Imperial defence. But such cumbrous and fantastic methods are imposed upon a State, which keeps 300,000 men locked up at home, for an heroic struggle with an obsolete invader. The Convention with the Sultan appears difficult to reconcile with loyalty to European Powers, and tends to inconveniences which I may afterwards allude to. But the concession to Russia before a Congress was approached deserves more serious reflection, however little we may view the noble Marquess the Secretary of State as being exclusively its author. We may dismiss altogether the scandal with which the name of Mr. Marvin was associated. We may forget the mode in which, as a noble Earl now absent from his place remarked to us the true intention of Great Britain flashed on an astonished Europe from the depths of the police court. We may excuse the contradictory instructions to Lord Odo Russell as a departure from routine, or rather a relapse to virtue, "a longing lingering look behind," in those who painfully

  979
  renounced it. But the fact, to be as far as possible divested of its incidents and measured by itself, is collusion with the Power which the rest of Europe had determined on restraining. In 1856 there was no mysterious concurrence between Russia and Great Britain. There was none with France in 1815. There is nothing of the kind on record, as far as I know, in the Congresses of history. The course pursued in 1877 of abnegating Treaties, no doubt, was fertile of embarrassment. But still the situation did not call for this irregular concession. In spite of her successes Russia was endangered. The Roumanian Army was opposed to her. The Ottoman retreat, through the exertion of General Baker, had been successfully and brilliantly conducted. The Black Sea, by public law, was open to our cruisers. National opinion had risen to a flood against the Russian progress in Great Britain. These circumstances did much to favour our diplomacy. They did much to favour the more legitimate proceeding of uniting the Powers which arrayed themselves against the Treaty of San Stefano in such a protest as was calculated to extort the limitation they were anxious for. However, in June the Plenipotentiaries arrived at Berlin. The Government can only claim a general acquittal of the past, if the Treaty of Berlin deserves all the eulogies which they—much more than their own friends—for many months have prodigally lavished on it.
  As regards the Treaty of Berlin, there is an unfortunate impression—unfortunate for those who have to touch upon it—that the subject is exhausted. Men forget that every important Treaty has taken years before it was elucidated. The Treaty of Utrecht continued to engage dispute during the lifetime of Lord Boling broke. The Treaties of 1815 were being perpetually canvassed in the days of Lord John Russell and Lord Palmerston. As to those of 1856, during the last few years we have been constantly debating on them. Only the other day the whole House was thrown into perplexity as to whether one of them is valid. My conviction is that, so far from being exhausted, the Treaty of Berlin has never yet been placed in its true light before the Legislature or the country. In deference, however, to the feeling which exists—whether or not it is well founded—I pass over and
  980
  blot out a whole series of objections habitually present to me. Not a word shall this House hear from me of Batoum, Bessarabia, Greece, or even, in this connection, of the Ottoman Assemblies. I hurry on to these two propositions, hoping to maintain them. The Treaty of Berlin has much impaired the prospect of upholding Ottoman authority upon the Bosphorus. At the same time, the materials of replacing it by some untried and well-imagined combination have been dissipated and abandoned.
  If the Treaties of 1856 were no restraint on Russian movement to Constantinople the Treaty of Berlin has no pretension to contain it. The pretexts of aggression which arose in 1877 are not exceptional and fugitive, but may recur at any moment. But foreign interference to defend the Sultan is no more to be depended on in the future than in the late emergency it was attainable. His power to defend himself is manifestly weakened, as he is no longer sheltered by the Danube, by the fortresses, or even by the Balkans, as he used to be. It is calculated that, in military force, he loses over 50,000 men, in Revenue about £5,000,000 sterling, by the territorial arrangements which have happened. Not long ago the Prince of Servia made war upon him, instigated from a distance. At any future time the Prince of Bulgaria may have the same encouragement to act in the same manner. He has a motive which the former Vassals were exempt from. He will always be impelled—not, perhaps, by his own mind, but by the circles which surround him—to aspire to equality with the position granted recently to those who rule in Servia, Montenegro, and Roumania. A much larger population might now be moved upon Constantinople than was formerly available. It is true—as the noble Marquess the Secretary of State is never tired of impressing upon us—that Austria is at Novi Bazar. But she is not under any obligation to advance beyond it. She is not bound by a Convention. She is not subsidized by this country or by Europe to defend Constantinople. The diplomatists in this House will hardly reprimand me for observing that the more they know, the more they meditate on Austria, the more they see her policy to be incalcu-

  981
  lable. But if anything could be predicted with regard to her from study of the past it is unvarying reluctance to go to war with Russia, even for objects she appreciates, even for objects she considers as her own. In this way a situation has arisen which forces on reluctant thinkers, on reluctant politicians, the question how far Ottoman authority may be replaced upon the Bosphorus, with a view to guard the limitation against Russia which the Crimean War was meant to save and to immortalize.
  Now, my Lords, the point to be submitted has nothing difficult about it. It may require knowledge of the Eastern Question to arrive at the conclusion; but it requires little to form a judgment of its accuracy. Whatever novel system is devised must absorb the population both of Servia and Roumania, or else be utterly unequal to the object of creating it. Whether Greece is to adopt Constantinople instead of Athens as a centre, whether Bulgaria is to recover something like its former nationality, whether you look to a regenerated Austria or a developed Hungary for the solution of the difficulty, it must agglomerate both Servia and Roumania, or else be wholly insufficient as a barrier against the numbers and against the power to be resisted. The existence of the two as independent States—if it endures—is fatal to the purpose we are contemplating.
  No sort of ground existed for producing it. Had it been desirable for Europe, in 1856 it would have happened. But it was not desirable for Europe, and, therefore, sedulously guarded against. Had it been necessary for the races which vassal Princes used to govern, to be under reigning Princes, we should long ago have heard of it. The Servian Mission of 1863 would have impressed it carefully upon us. The project of an independent Servia and Roumania was never mooted till the Congress of Berlin. It was opposed to the whole line the Government itself upheld a few years back in 1875. To multiply small States incapable of self-defence is utterly opposed to the direction of the world and to the tenor of its history. If we wanted new States the Austrian Empire could furnish them. If we wanted new States there is a Poland to reflect upon. To guard against aggression those which now exist is found to be too difficult a labour.
  982
  In our quarter of the globe at least—it may be different in America—a new State is a new element of bloodshed and confusion. Such is the general idea which ought to limit their creation. But here a special object of commanding magnitude and paramount importance should have wholly interdicted it. By this gigantic error new discord is insured. When that discord overthrows the crumbling residue of Ottoman supremacy, the possibility which did exist, of otherwise withstanding Russian arms, is nearly evanescent. On the whole—however deeply we admire the industry of the negotiators—the Treaty of Berlin is fatal to the Porte itself, and obstructive in a high degree to all the efforts for replacing it, which must have taxed even at the very best the genius and sagacity of Europe.
  It is now essential to remark a moment on the Paper which I move for, and which has certainly attained to some publicity already. It first appeared in the spring of 1878, and was reprinted in the European Press when Afghan troubles began to occupy us in the autumn. The Mémorial Diplomatique guaranteed its authenticity, which has not, however, been disputed. What it tends to bring out is the link between the Eastern policy I have adverted to, and the appearance of a Russian Mission at Cabul. Whatever opinion may be formed as to the necessity of the Afghan War, the appearance of a Russian Mission at Cabul, in defiance of the Heidelberg Convention, so much blended with the fame of the late Lord Clarendon, was a reproach and a calamity. In that letter the Ameer explained that the unchecked advance of Russia on Constantinople had estranged him from Great Britain. In about six months he gave effect to his conclusion.
  Let no one think that I am going into the Afghan Question. Not long ago the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) in some degree exhausted it. Without concurring in all he uttered, with so much force and so much volubility, had he divided, I should have given an unhesitating vote in favour of his Motion. The only mode of thinking I am anxious to encounter is a most inaccurate and yet a most prevailing one in general society. It is that the Afghan War is a set-off to the deficiencies—in some degree avowed—on what by long

  983
  familiar use among diplomatists is termed the Eastern Question. On the ground of the Afghan War it is attempted to weave crowns, and even more than crowns, for the First Minister by the very persons who were on the verge of tumult because, in 1877, complete inaction against Russia was persisted in. But it was not an Afghan war such persons were demanding. Now, oven if we think the Russian Mission to Cabul could only be disposed of by the conflict it elicited; even if we grant the theory of the scientific Frontier; even if we forget the reckless Embassy together with its miserable consequences; even if the war should end in new security to India, it can do nothing to atone for losses nor to recover influence in Europe. The same remark applies exactly to the campaign in Africa, even if, judged alone, it would admit of being defended. So as regards Cyprus. Even if you hold its doubtful and contingent tenure to be useful as a means of guarding Egypt—the only praise it can extort—so far from being an expiation of inconstancy to Treaties and the Porte, it rather tends to aggravate and to enhance it. These subsequent transactions are the asylum of the Government; and now they ought to be dislodged from it. It is like a second picture placed obtrusively in front of that which we desire to judge, on purpose to conceal it. It is like the effort to redeem a play which has not terminated fortunately by an irrelevant explosion of artillery and fireworks. If anyone engages to stand upon a rope and falls, he cannot claim approval because, instead of going back to his task, he executes a series of highly interesting dances. This complicated after-piece may, and does, impose upon Great Britain for the moment. But we must look elsewhere for the criterion of its advantage. Does it impose upon the Continent of Europe? Does it secure augmented influence at Paris, at Vienna, Berlin, or St. Petersburg? Does it give us any better locus standi to prevent a rupture between Germany and France whenever such a rupture is impending? Would these auxiliary transactions inspire Sweden, Portugal, or Belgium, who look to Great Britain as a defending Power, with any greater confidence than they would otherwise indulge? To recover influence in Europe, when something has de-
  984
  stroyed it, at least a momentary firmness in regard to European Powers is essential. But none has been displayed. When Russia stepped over the Heidelburg Convention our diplomatic intercourse continued with her; while the Ameer, who had not violated any Treaty, who acted under the control of overruling force, was destined to absorb the whole of our resentment.
  Whatever weakness or deficiency or error are connected with the period of 1877 are, therefore, unatoned for and uncancelled. No doubt, some pretexts have been offered to extenuate them, as it is seen that they will not admit of open vindication. It is not unusual to throw the whole responsibility on the former Secretary of State (the Earl of Derby). The noble Earl the Prime Minister, however, can never possibly resort to such a shelter. He can never be inclined to dispute—even if others do so—that each decision upon foreign policy involves the sanction of the person by whom the Cabinet is guided. It has been often said that the Opposition paralyzed the Government. The Opposition were always a minority in both Houses of Parliament. How could they dictate to the Government? Besides, the Opposition were divided on the Eastern Question. A Government, at least, is quite as much at liberty to follow the group which it approves, as that from which it differs. Again, in their preparatory measures, after the resignation of Lord Derby, the Government were not controlled by any section of the Opposition which discountenanced them. Why, therefore, could they not resist the section—if there was one—which frowned upon the measure of advancing the British Fleet into the Dardanelles at the beginning of the war instead of at the end of it? They would reply, perhaps, that national opinion had undergone a transformation. It is true, my Lords, that national opinion had matured itself. But it is untrue that in April, 1877, national opinion would have checked a step so moderate and limited, as well as so imperative in faith and requisite in policy, as that to which I have alluded. The complete inaction of the Government was at once the theme of systematic protest among the most important journals of the country. It called into existence, during the autumn, a number of irregular societies, resolved to put an end to

  985
  it. It brought on besides, and independently, a formidable movement in the open air which could not be resisted. You cannot urge that national opinion had demanded the course which, in a few months, it overwhelmed and reprimanded by its violence. You cannot satisfy the House that it was a dangerous outrage upon public sentiment to advance the Fleet in May, June, or July, if you like, even November; when, in the succeeding January, to advance it was the only course by which tumult could be quelled, by which mobs could be dispersed, by which security and peace could be restored to the Metropolis.
  One further question only can present itself which there is any duty to reply to. It maybe demanded—granting there was error in 1877, which subsequent transactions are incompetent to expiate, and current pretexts to defend-—has it resulted in any actual inconvenience? In Europe the inconvenience is manifest. The triumph of aggression, the collapse of Treaties, always render ware more probable than otherwise it would be. How was peace secured for 40 years in 1815? By the repression of the Power which, in that age, was the disturbing one. The converse will present itself. But I hold the scene of actual inconvenience to be much more Constantinople. Our position at Constantinople is most disastrous and anomalous at present. By the new Convention we are forced to aim at Ottoman reforms in Asia Minor. It is only as a defending Power, it has been repeatedly established, we have any title to exact them. But in 1877 we proved that we are not a defending Power. In 1877 we proved that engagements to offer even the slightest form of material assistance to the Sultan are illusory. The new Convention has no greater promise of validity than that which did belong to the old Treaties. The Sublime Porte inevitably reason in this manner—"We are not subsidized in order to reform; we are not coerced in order to reform; and by reform we get at no security whatever for ulterior protection. Why, then, should we carry it beyond our own idea of justice and expediency?" But, my Lords, they have another answer even more conclusive to any exhortation the Ambassador thinks proper to address to them. They may reply, that they organized political Assemblies; that Sir Henry Layard himself
  986
  attested their reality and efficacy in his despatches to the Foreign Office; that they sat before the war began; that they were sitting when it finished; that the first measure of the Russian Armies at San Stefano required their dispersion; that the Congress of Berlin might, by a single Article, have easily revived them; that it failed to do so; that the European Powers collectively interred the reforming agency which Russia had individually disposed of. "If you want reforms in Asia Minor," they naturally say, "you had better re-establish our Assemblies. We do not wish to prove their superfluity, or vindicate the conduct which destroyed them." By such language the Ambassador is silenced; and yet he must persist, to some extent, in measures which provoke it. It ought here to be remarked that in a number of debates it was repeatedly insisted on that if the Treaties of 1856 were wholly overlooked the power to interfere and improve in Ottoman dominion would afterwards escape us altogether. If the position at Constantinople is certainly embarrassing, and possibly humiliating, it is not unwarned or unenlightened that the Government have entered it.
  The present is not one of the occasions when anyone at all conversant with the subject ought to insist on an Eastern danger which he realizes; or urge the country to the path of duty from the slumber of indifference; or recommend a course of action to a Government whose hesitation and disunion have been too openly revealed to us. During the last five years, however, such occasions have been frequent. They are alone sufficient to condemn the policy which leads to them. In this House Ministers are rich in Parliamentary and even oratorical ability. Great as it may be, it will not enable them to disprove a large share of responsibility for the unhappy war of 1877. They will never show that in May, June, or July of that year the British Fleet might not have been despatched into the Bosphorus to the incalculable benefit of Europe. They will not be able either to repudiate the parentage of the usurping Treaty, which they afterwards contended with, as I hold, unsuccessfully. The transactions are voluminous and intricate. They are beyond the range, perhaps, of industry to grasp, or utterance to mention them. But yet their history may be given in a

  987
  sentence. It is the record of wisdom faintly and imperfectly adhered to, of duty openly and systematically violated, of reparation eagerly but ineffectually grasped at. By submitting it, in outline, to this House to-night—although with many chasms and various deficiencies—I shall have, at least, attempted to perform a timely service to the Opposition and the country. The noble Lord then moved for the letter of the Ameer to the Sultan, dated January 19, 1878.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Copy of the letter from the late Ameer of Afghanistan to the Sultan, dated 19th January 1878."—(The Lord Campbell.)
  LORD DENMANsaid, that when his noble and lamented Relative was about to retire he particularly disliked the tune of "The Camp bells are coming;" and it having been said by the noble Lord, doubly a Peer, that he would have voted with the noble Head of his Clan as to Afghanistan, the noble Pair would have assailed the Government from opposite sides—for, while the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) attacked the Government because they would not extirpate the Turks, the noble Lord (Lord Campbell) attacked them with equal vigour because they would not preserve them. He (Lord Denman) thought that each of those noble Lords should recollect the words of Horace—
  "Est brevitate opus ut currat sententia, neu se Impediat verbis lassas
  Onerantibus aures."
  He congratulated those noble Lords who, unlike himself, had heard the whole of the noble Lord's speech.
  EARL GRANVILLE: It is impossible, my Lords, not to feel that, from his point of view, the noble Lord who brought forward the subject has a strong case against the Government. During the last few years he has not, in my opinion, been sufficiently alive to the evils of misgovernment by the Turkish Empire, or to the claims of its Christian subjects upon our sympathies; and he has not seen as clearly as I fancy I do the advantages of acting in concert with Europe, and the disadvantages of isolated action on our part in this Eastern Question. But he concentrated his view upon the necessity of checking Russia in different parts of the world, and of supporting, with a view to our interests,
  988
  the independence and integrity of the Turkish Empire. He, therefore, with perfect consistency, applauded all the declarations and promises made by Her Majesty's Government in agreement with his own principles, and with equal consistency he now deplores how completely the performance of the Government has failed to keep pace with their professions. When the noble Lord's Notice first stood on the Minutes it was not my intention to take part in the debate, and the noble Lord was aware of the fact. But I will now ask leave to say a few words on the question which he has raised, and on other matters incidental to that question. One of the circumstances to which I wish to allude is that the present Parliament, already unduly prolonged, is now about to be suddenly closed. A Cabinet Minister, a few days before the opening of Parliament, had announced to us, as an agreeable surprise, that this, the last Session of the present Parliament, was to be a Session of real work. Her Majesty's Government in the Queen's Gracious Speech announced certain measures, and promised others of equal importance. In the House of Commons Her Majesty's Government obtained the concurrence of the Opposition and the ready assent of the House to certain Resolutions which they thought it desirable to adopt in order to facilitate the legislative Business in the other House. Excepting for the disturbance raised by a Bill the object of which is excellent, but which, for want of common care as to its provisions, is universally condemned and may be fatal to the reform so much required, there is hardly a ripple on the stream of Parliamentary work. In the midst of this calm the stormy petrels appeared. The noble Earl, in a few words and with no reasons, announced, the Dissolution of Parliament. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a similar announcement in "another place;" but some reasons were given, but still reasons which appeared to me not in the slightest degree to justify the Dissolution of Parliament, or at least which would not have equally justified it last autumn. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said it was in order to pass the Irish Relief Bills; but if the Dissolution had come in the autumn Parliament would have met at the usual time, and the Irish Bills would have been

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  passed as soon as they have been now. There is no possible reason why, if it is right to dissolve Parliament now, it was not right to do so at a time which would not have interfered with the annual Parliamentary Business of the country. But, my Lords, be this as it may, so far from crying over spilt milk, I am rejoiced at the announcement that the present unsatisfactory state of things is drawing to an end, and that an appeal is to be made to the sense—I hope the good sense—of the people of this country. My Lords, on the next day, last Tuesday, there appeared a letter from the First Lord of the Treasury to the Viceroy of Ireland. I will not describe that letter, as it has been described this evening in the land debate, as an electioneering squib; but its form is a little unusual. I do not, however, complain of that. One hook is nearly as good as another upon which to hang a declaration of principles. My complaint is of another kind. It relates to the absence from that declaration of any principles of a tangible character. Literary critics have fallen foul of the language and the grammar; but I have no pretence to be a literary critic. My only object, if I write or speak, is to convey my meaning as clearly as I can to others. I am not convinced by the united authority of Prince Talleyrand, Dr. South, and Cardinal de Retz, that language was given to man to conceal his thoughts. And if I find that a singularly brilliant writer, a great master of English, puts together words which are understood neither by friends or opponents, I conclude that it is not that he cannot, but that he does not, wish to explain his meaning. A first-rate judge, speaking of this Manifesto, said—
  "You must not look at this design as if it were a picture intended to be hung on the eye line. It is a bit of stage painting, intended to be looked at from an immense distance and to produce a general effect, utterly irrespective of correct drawing or accurate details."
  Now, my Lords, what is the general effect intended? It appears to me that it is something of this sort—that the Government mean for the future to soar above the details of home reforms and social progress; that, with regard to Ireland, they not only desire to excite a firm desire to keep united the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, but that they think
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  it convenient for election purposes to excite the popular feeling against that country, and to convey an impression that the Oppositon are indifferent to the union of the two Islands; that the same difference of opinion exists between themselves and ourselves as to our relations with India and with the Colonies, and that as to the influence of England in Europe, this is the exclusive monopoly of the present Government, which has been used in the past, and which will be used in the future, with a splendid success perfectly unattainable by any other Party in the State. As this is the first opportunity of touching upon the remarkable Manifesto of the noble Earl, it is tempting to touch upon the home policy—or rather, the no-home-policy—of Her Majesty's Government. It is especially tempting to say something upon the attempt, and the utter failure, to fix upon the Opposition any desire for the separation of Ireland from Great Britain. But I will refrain.
  THE EARL OF DUNMORE: Hear, hear!
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am glad to hear that cheer from the noble Earl; and I repeat, that I resist the temptation to speak on those subjects.
  THE EARL OF DUNMORE: I thought the Motion related to the Eastern Question?
  EARL GRANVILLE: To that I am coming. Now, my Lords, with regard to foreign affairs, the first thing that strikes one is the singular declaration that Her Majesty's Government have maintained peace. Where have they maintained peace? In Europe? No. In Africa? No. In Asia? No. They have not maintained it even in South America; but with that they have had little to do. In Europe there has been a war, a war which, as was believed by us at the time, might have been prevented by a policy of united pressure by the whole of Europe to compel the carrying out of the Treaty promises—a war which the Prime Minister once told us could have been prevented if his strong Government had done that which they did not do. But that a long and bloody war took place, and that at an enormous cost of human life and suffering, is a matter of fact, which seems perfectly inconsistent with the repeated boast that Her Majesty's Government secured the peace

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  of Europe. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is much more cautious in his address. He says that, although we could not prevent war, we stopped its extension to other countries. But I want to know who were the other countries who wanted to fight and were prevented by Her Majety's Government from doing so? That is a point on which I am ignorant. It is quite true we did not go to war ourselves. I am very glad, indeed, we did not. We avoided that war by conceding nearly every position which the Government, unfortunately, announced, two years ago, would be injurious if abandoned. The noble Earl, in his letter to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, talks not only of the influence, but of the ascendancy, of this country over the Councils of Europe. Where is this ascendancy shown? At Constantinople? With the Slavs? With the Greeks? Is it over France and Egypt? Is it in Vienna and Berlin? When Lord Salisbury announced at Manchester, with exceeding glory, the tidings of an understanding between Austria and Germany, he informed the astonished Manchester people at the, same time that he had no information of what that understanding was. This appears to me very like the ascendancy of the Premier. Though there has been ascendancy, the noble Earl says it is now arrested. It would be interesting to know whether it has only been arrested during the last month, week, or ten days, or much earlier, and what is the nature of its influence? Influence is a good thing, and ascendancy is a better, if really exercised to defend ourselves from injury, and to promote peace, justice, and liberty among others. But can anything be less statesmanlike, less judicious, more certain to destroy our just influence, than to make these idle and public boasts of ascendancy? The noble Earl's ability, his courage, his experience, must give him great influence in his Cabinet. Would it increase his influence to boast in public of his ascendancy over those of whom he is the admitted Chief? Does he, then, think that to flaunt his boast in the face of the rival countries of Europe, jealous of their own position, and, unfortunately, submitting to the burdens of millions of men to maintain it, is a plan to strengthen the influence of England in the slightest degree? I cannot conceive
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  such a thought being not considered either offensive or ridiculous by some of those great military Powers, unless they looked upon it as being a matter of merely insular concern, arguing that, as long as England consented to pull the chestnuts out of the fire for them, they would not mind such election periods as those in this letter. But still more serious questions remain. The noble Earl, in his letter, most distinctly intimates that we are in the most critical period of foreign affairs, and he further says that it is only by the Government of England—with him and his Colleagues in the management of affairs—that that critical state of affairs can be dealt with. And it is at this critical time that he slightly diminishes not only the Army, but the Navy Estimates. But the extraordinary thing is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is absolutely ignorant of this critical state of things. In his address he tells us that we are nearly at the end of our European troubles, and proposes to devote himself to questions of a homely character. It is a serious matter that Parliament and the country should be kept so much out of the confidence of Her Majesty's Government as to foreign affairs; but it really becomes a most grave question if the leading Members of the Cabinet are equally deprived of that information. Pessimism in politics is not good. Optimism, within certain limits, is of great advantage. It encourages self-confidence, and the confidence of others. It is a quality the possession of which I do not deny to the present Government. They take, as is natural to high-spirited men, a very favourable view of all that they do, and are not reticent in communicating that opinion to others. It is a most singular circumstance that the South African War, which the Government claimed the merit of endeavouring to prevent, they now speak of as having led to the most happy results. In India we had a North-West Frontier, which the great majority of Anglo-Indian civilians and soldiers thought excellent. It had the great advantage of the mountainous Kingdom of Afghanistan, consolidated under Dost Mahomed and Shere Ali, as a buffer between ourselves and Russia, and with this advantage—that Afghanistan was not conterminous with Russia, or even with India, being separated by tracts of country occupied by inde-

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  pendent Tribes, easily kept in order by a few Native regiments. All this has been changed. Her Majesty's Government are delighted to have got the gates of India, being, I suppose, those narrow passages mentioned in the Gundamuck Treaty. But we do not know whether any further gates are required for Cabul, Herat, the Hindoo Koosh, and other places. All we know is, that in one of the gates already possessed the key is rusting in the keyhole; we have had 7,000 or 8,000 troops shut up there during the whole of last autumn. Lord Lawrence, Lord Northbrook, and others, equally entitled to speak with authority on this subject, have pointed out that the whole difficulty of our position in Afghanistan was, that while nothing was easier than to get there, it was quite another thing to get out. But, moreover, I find an extract of the Viceroy in Council, dated July 7th, last year. He there said—
  "We had serious cause to appprehend that, if we temporarily occupied Cabul, we might, by thus precipitating the downfall of Shere All, irretrievably shake to pieces all the independent materials of government in Afghanistan, bequeathing to Shere Ali's successor no stable basis of authority, and placing ourselves in a position from which we could not afterwards retire without surrendering to anarchy and civil conflict a State which it was our object to strengthen and consolidate in the manner most conducive to peaceable and friendly relations."
  This is the state in which we find ourselves now. And yet all the language of the Ministers is rose-coloured on the subject. Some promise immediate tranquillity and prosperity to Afghanistan; and the noble Viscount (Viscount Cranbrook) actually worked himself up to tell us the other day that it was a question whether Afghanistan broken up was not better than the "strong and independent" Afghanistan which the Government, like all their Predecessors, considered essential to our interests. With regard to Turkey, the noble Earl has been the greatest optimist of all. I have not heard any opinion from him of late; but he was the last to declare his unchanged belief in the independence and vitality of the Turkish Empire. I have admired the cheery tone with which, at annual civic feasts, he has announced the eternal character of his Administration. But a change has at last arisen. In his letter to the Viceroy, he acknowledges that even his Cabinet is human, and
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  may finally be disposed of by the process of popular election. I am not going to make any rash prophecies as to the result of the coming Election. All I can say is that I have not the slightest doubt the result of that Election will be disadvantageous to Her Majesty's Government. But, supposing they return with the same majority, or even a diminished majority, I feel it is a serious consideration how perfectly uncontrolled they will be in directing the foreign affairs of this country. I believe them to be honourable men, striving, according to their views, to act for the advantage of the country. But I dissent from their views. I dissent from their way of dealing with our foreign policy, and complain of their not achieving the results which they profess to have achieved. But what I more especially complain of is, that they do not let the country take a share in the conduct of its foreign affairs, which I believe is the right and claim of every free country at the present day. If, on the contrary, we are successful at the Election, I can only feel that whatever Government may be in power, that Government will be most anxious to maintain the unity of this Empire, to support the dignity and honour of the Crown, and to protect this country from injury and insult from whatever quarter it may come.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: There is very great difficulty in following the speeches of the noble Lord who introduced this Motion. His style of rhetoric is very peculiar. It is framed upon a series of assumptions and, as we all willingly acknowledge, his acquaintance with the countries of which he speaks; and he has made himself, much to his honour and credit, master of the diplomatic details of the last few years; this combination gives a plausibility to his assumptions, for which there is really not the slightest foundation. His arguments are sound enough, if the assumptions could only be proved. The arguments and deductions of the noble Lord are always illustrated by a certain degree of local colouring, which of course, recommends them to the consideration of the House, who feel that they are addressed by an individual who, with personal experience, combines study of the subject, and that they are listening to a noble Lord eminently qualified to address them on such topics.

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  The noble Lord says—"You had a great opportunity in 1876, and you lost it." What was the opportunity? The noble Lord never told us. Throughout his speech, which was not a short one, he dwelt upon the opportunity which was lost; but he never told us what the opportunity was. "Then," said the noble Lord, "after 1876 you had another opportunity." Here, I must say, he did condescend to give us some details for our guidance. "You ought," he said, "to have sent an Embassy to St. Petersburgh and not to Constantinople; everything would then have been settled to the satisfaction of Europe." But here, again, is an assumption of the noble Lord. I suppose that we who are responsible for the conduct of public affairs, or any Gentlemen in our situation, would not have carried them on without some communication with St. Petersburgh. The noble Lord assumes that during the two years that elapsed before the war commenced not the slightest communication had taken place between St. Petersburgh and the Court of St. James's. Then the noble Lord says—"I make a summary of these six years, and that summary is this—You have deprived Turkey of all present authority on the Bosphorus, and you have impaired her to an extent which must inevitably lead to her entirely losing her position there." Well, that is the opinion of the noble Lord; but it is not the general opinion. It is not the opinion of persons—of statesmen, I will say—in several countries upon that subject. They have differed upon points in the settlement of Europe, and compromises necessarily have been made, and arrangements have been agreed to, without which no ultimate consent or decision could have been arrived at; but, if there was one point on which all were agreed, it was that command should be given to Turkey over the Bosphorus, and arrangements should be made with reference to that position which would render it most probable—unless there was a total want of energy and power—that Constantinople would remain in the hands either of the Sultan or of some Power whose position there would not menace the independence of Europe. Now, I say, in answer to the noble Lord at once, that I entirely deny his summary; and if the consequence of his studies has only been that he should call upon the House to
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  listen to a speech of an hour and a quarter in order to vindicate what he calls the summary of his convictions and researches, then I say one weaker, less founded, less true, less trustworthy was never brought before the consideration of your Lordships' House. Then there is another peculiarity about the oratory of the noble Lord. The noble Lord will not be offended by my noticing it, since he is the founder of a school, although that school does not yet exist. The noble Lord has given us so many specimens of this kind of diplomatic rhetoric during this Session, that I think it is necessary that some justice should be done to its peculiarities and its beauties. The noble Lord goes on arguing—forgetting, and thinking the House will also forget—that there is one great distinction between the noble Lord and all on this side of the House, and, I believe, with a sole exception, with all noble Lords opposite. The noble Lord is a man of war. He says—"You should have done this, you lost a great opportunity; you should have done that;" but all the things we ought to have done would have been acts of war; and our duty, as an English Ministry, was to save the country from being involved in war, and, if possible, to prevent war in any part of Europe. The noble Lord, of course, disapproves of the manner in which we managed affairs, because the noble Lord and ourselves were driving at an end perfectly different and contrary to each other. The noble Lord, from beginning to end, has only one idea for the settlement of the Eastern Question. It is from the beginning war, and in the middle war, and in the end war. The object of Her Majesty's Ministers, as I doubt not it would have been the object of our rivals, if they had sat on these benches, was to save this country from war, and, if possible, other countries also. Well, this great speech this evening, which has led to so much instructive and unexpected oratory, is founded on a Motion which ought not to be forgotten. This speech is made because the noble Lord is in possession of a letter from Shere Ali to the Sultan, stirring up the Sultan to make war against England, and to enter into an alliance with that Power which, of all Powers, is the one he should most avoid allying himself to; it descants on the great advantages of his alliance with Russia. The noble

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  Lord's Motion is that, on the part of the Government, we should produce this letter. We have no official knowledge of it; we have it only in the form in which the noble Lord has it, through its having been printed in the newspapers. The letter in question is, without doubt, a forgery, and the noble Lord has made it the foundation of a great debate in your Lordships' House, which has elicited some important revelations from the noble Earl opposite with reference to the politics and position of his Party. He has made them on a letter which is apocryphal and spurious. Now, the history of this letter of Shere Ali, your Lordships may rely upon it, is something in this way—It appeared in a Turkish paper, and was communicated to that paper by a European. When it appeared in the Turkish newspaper, it was, of course, copied into other papers, and a considerable controversy was occasioned by it. A communication was, in consequence, made to the Turkish Government, and the authenticity of the letter was immediately denied. The Sultan himself personally declared that it was perfectly apocryphral; and, therefore, no copy came into our possession, nor did we hear anything further about it. I must say this—that the Russian newspapers—at least, some of them, though copying the letter, treated it in a spirit of very judicious criticism. The Golos of the 15th of July said—
  "This correspondence, which is undoubtedly false, has made a strong impression upon the Mahomedan population in India. It was reprinted in all the leading Indian newspapers, and gave rise to endless rumours in all the bazaars."
  I think if your Lordships were to read the letter—and probably you did read it some time ago—you would see immediately that it was written by a European. It is too epigrammatic for an Oriental; and the whole tone is evidently that of some experienced journalist, who used a small Turkish newspaper which no longer exists, published at Constantinople, and distinguished for its hostility to England. This letter, disclaimed by the Sultan, and by him personally denounced as utterly apocryphal, is the foundation for the debate of to-night. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) has taken fair advantage of this discussion to make some amiable remarks on the state of public affairs; and the noble
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  Earl has taken the letter which I addressed to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland as his chief text. I think he ought to have assisted the noble Lord who produced the Oriental letter, and have made a speech which would have been more germane to the matter in hand. I do not collect from the noble Earl that his objections are of a very substantial or serious character. The first objection is, that we have advised Her Majesty to dissolve Parliament. I can conceive some familiar friend complaining that we had advised Her Majesty to dissolve Parliament; but I am surprised that the noble Earl, the head of a powerful Party, who for the last six months have been denouncing Her Majesty's Government because they did not dissolve Parliament—and some of whom have used language of the strongest invective against us, and who have laboured to impress upon the nation that it was nothing but our fear of the indignation of our fellow-citizens that prevented us from doing so—I say I am surprised that the noble Earl should have found that fault with us. I will make great admissions to the noble Earl. I will admit that there is hardly a higher function to exercise, or a more responsible duty to fulfil, than to advise your Sovereign to dissolve Parliament in any circumstances, except when the absolute lapse of time renders it the duty of a Ministry to do so. I look upon it as an act which involves the highest responsibility on the part of the Ministry who advise it; and if I did not feel certain that the noble Earl opposite and many of his Friends, whose great station in the country and whose distinguished talents we all acknowledge and honour, were merely speaking in a spirit of mockery, I should be alarmed when I read, as I do read, that some of these distinguished persons have absolutely insinuated that Parliament has been dissolved because there was some Water Bill in the House of Commons. If I believed that the}' sincerely entertained that view, I should feel that there was great danger for the country. But, as I know they are men well experienced in public affairs, and have well weighed the responsibility of the Ministerial conduct in making such advice as the Dissolution of Parliament to the Sovereign, I pass that over, and I am quite convinced that the noble Earl will allow me to notice his remarks on the

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  broad ground upon which they ought to be noticed. To advise a Dissolution is an act which involves great responsibility; and we have considered it in all its bearings. Nothing but a sense of duty—of overwhelmingduty—induced us to take that step; and no other justification of our act, I should think, was necessary, especially as we are now appealing to our country. The noble Earl touched, I think, upon some domestic subjects which I ought to have noticed; but as the debate is on foreign affairs, I may, perhaps, be excused from referring to them.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I referred to Ireland.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: I have already troubled your Lordships to-night with remarks upon Ireland, and I will not touch upon that subject again. I will rather come to that point in the noble Earl's speech in which he questioned my right to describe what my views were as to the position of this and other nations—as to the relations existing between this and other countries—and the degree of danger or security that might arise from them. He questioned my right, and I must assert that right in a manner which cannot be mistaken. I do not understand what the noble Earl means by perpetually impressing us with the necessity of publishing to the nation every single thing connected with our foreign affairs, as if we were to take every opportunity of shuffling off the responsibility which it is our duty as Ministers to encounter and to sincerely feel. My Lords, there is not an expression in the letter to which so much reference has been made which was not well weighed and sincerely felt. I believe the state of affairs is critical; and when I look at the condition of Europe; when I observe those mighty hosts in battle array; when I find increased armaments proposed, recommended, and agreed to with facility—if there were no other causes, these alone would make me impress upon my countrymen that this is not a time when vigilance can be neglected, and when resolution can be
  "Sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought."
  The noble Lord followed up those remarks. The noble Lord seemed to complain very much of my using the word "ascendency," and talked of my "boasting of the ascendency which Her Majesty's
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  Government now possesses in Europe." I said nothing of the kind. I laid it down, as I do lay it down here sincerely, that England ought to possess an influence, not to say an ascendency, in the Councils of Europe. I laid that down; but I did not say that we possess an ascendency. I said that the principle I have just enunciated should form the basis of a policy which a wise Minister would pursue, and which he ought to endeavour to attain. There are causes why England does not possess that degree of influence and ascendency in the Councils of Europe which I should desire her to possess. These causes are the conduct, not of the noble Earl, who has always conducted himself as a statesman should; but the conduct of those deeply connected in public life with the noble Earl, who have held language which has impressed the Courts of Europe, and the nations of Europe, with the idea that there is a want of sympathy between the existing Government and their countrymen; and that if one of those trials should occur which demand the utmost development of national energy, and the utmost display of national spirit, the Government would appeal to their countrymen in vain. My Lords, there is a great difference between the word "ascendency" and the word "supremacy." The word ascendency is one which involves important moral attributes, and is not a word of offence, but one which will always be accepted in a liberal and generous spirit. I maintain that the policy of England should be directed at preserving her ascendency. I maintain that unless we take our place in the Councils of Europe in a becoming manner, the peace of the world will be endangered. I maintain that the best security for possessing general peace lies in increasing and upholding the influence of this country. Why, the two systems have been tried! The opposite system has been tried by the Ministry of which the noble Earl was one of the ablest Members, and what was the result? If we have had to encounter troubles, if we have had to meet great difficulties, if we have found affairs in Asia and in Europe complicated and confused, why, they were the consequence, I will say, of the policy of those who preceded us. That policy we have not followed. Our policy we have fairly put before the country, and its verdict will

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  soon be given. If it is our fortune to remain upon these benches, the policy we ourselves have pursued will be pursued again; but if the noble Earl and his Friends are destined to occupy our positions, I promise the noble Earl that if the honour and the interest of England are ever concerned when he is Minister, his Government will be supported by the Tory Party.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield) had made an accusation against the late Government which he did not remember to have heard made before—namely, that they left the relations of this country with foreign Powers in such a condition that the difficulties and dangers surrounding the present Government were largely caused by their conduct. Unless his memory deceived him, he had heard the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) the Foreign Minister serving under the noble Earl opposite, declare that when he succeeded to power the opinions of this country had never been received with more respect. What, then, became of the extraordinary statement which the noble Earl had had the audacity to make? Could anyone who was not to be led away by magniloquent phrases believe that the state of Europe, when the present Government acceded to Office, could have been brought about by the conduct of the late Government? Why, it was notorious that the condition of Europe had been largely brought about by the great war between Germany and France, which upset all the previous relations of the Continent, and from which dated the disturbance which had continued up to the present time. Since the disturbance caused by that war, peace had always been more or less insecure. He quite agreed with the noble Earl in what he had said about the critical state of Europe. He agreed with him that ever since that disturbance there had been much more danger of war than before. The noble Earl's letter was as inconsistent with that statement of his own Foreign Secretary as the speech which he had just made was inconsistent with the letter. He said in that letter that the Government had, up till then, been able to secure the peace of Europe; and further on he said, that the peace of Europe rested upon the influence, not to say the ascendency, of this country in the Councils of Europe. The noble Earl now said
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  that, owing to circumstances which were to be deplored, this country had not all the influence that it ought to have. Then, what became of the argument of the noble Earl that the peace of Europe rested on England having a dominant influence in the Councils of Europe? The noble Earl knew that England had not now, and had not for many years had, any such dominant influence in Europe; and it was not to our interest that this country should endeavour to obtain dominant influence in the Councils of Europe. He (the Earl of Kimberley) hoped this country would always have a just influence in Europe; but as regarded ascendency, he believed that to be a chimera; and if it was not a chimera, it could only be bought by an expenditure of blood and treasure which this country could not lightly undertake. What the Liberal Party asserted was, that Her Majesty's Government had not secured the results which they ought to have secured. They said the result of the action of Her Majesty's Government was to leave Turkey dismembered; that, far from insuring peace, they adopted a course which must lead to war; that if they had interfered at a timely moment, they might have averted war. It was always comparatively easy to excite the passions of a high-minded people such as the people of England by appealing to national honour and national interests; but he ventured to think that such a proceeding was scarcely worthy of statesmen who were responsible for the government of the country. It was a far nobler duty to moderate these passions, which were generally not the highest which actuated mankind.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that the noble Earl who had just sat down had included among his observations the remark that he was not aware whether he spoke the views of anyone else on his own side of the House. In saying that, he had expressed the difference which existed between a Liberal and a Conservative Government. His noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Beaconsfield) had not been exactly represented when he was credited with saying that our relations with foreign Powers were in the slightest degree wanting in the due respect which one nation owed to another; but when the time had come for the voice of England to speak in Europe, the present Government had found that

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  we could not speak with due effect. The reason of this was that there existed on the Continent—and the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) knew very well that this had been alleged by some of the most prominent men on the Continent—a belief that England did not intend to take any real part in the affairs of Europe. When the Government had been called upon to give their adhesion to the Berlin Memorandum, the noble Earl (Earl Granville), with that English sense which he could not divest himself of, had felt with the Government that they were right in declining to accede to it. Then had come the great agitation conducted in this country by a man of the greatest possible ability, in which again the inference was held out to Europe that England was not at one, and that her foreign policy was not to be depended upon. The noble Earl had spoken about exciting the passions of Englishmen on the subject of their relations with foreign countries; there was, however, an opposite change—namely, to excite those passions in another direction, by an appeal to their humanity, and by an exaggeration of events which were most lamentable in themselves, but which received even an undue importance from that exaggeration. The noble Earl told their Lordships he did not like the electioneering remarks of his (Viscount Cranbrook's) noble Friend in that House. He (Viscount Cranbrook) ventured to say, with great respect to the noble Earl opposite who led the Liberal Party with so much effect, he could not conceive for what object he made the speech he made to-night, except as a Manifesto on the part of the Liberal Party. If the noble Raid had spoken on behalf of the whole of the Liberal Party, no doubt, his Manifesto would have been received as a valuable representative utterance; but he did not, as a matter of fact, speak for the whole Party. The Party was broken up into shreds, and its voice was disunited to a degree which must make it weak in the Councils of Europe. The Conservatives, on the other hand, had spoken with one voice, and unequivocally, and they had taken that position throughout, which they would continue to adopt if they were left upon those Benches. They spoke still with that unanimity with which the Conservative Party had throughout spoken on this question. Great objec-
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  tion had been made to the word "ascendency." There was the ascendency of violence, and the ascendency of moral power. England had a power of her own. It might be that she had not the great armaments which existed on the Continent; but she could, as was well known, make her power felt in every direction. There was no State in Europe which, if England were really in earnest, would not value an alliance with her, and feel the importance of every word she spoke. He himself would certainly never have anticipated taking part in the discussion of that evening; but they had been invited to this electioneering contest, and, as he was now debarred from taking any part in it outside, he must thank the noble Earl for enabling him to say in that place that the Party he (Viscount Cranbrook) represented had the honour and interests of England at heart, and were prepared to maintain them in a way in which the noble Earl's Party could not, because it was divided against itself, and was therefore, one of those Parties that could not stand.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONventured to say that the sentiments which were expressed by his noble Friend at the conclusion of his speech were sentiments that were shared by the Liberal Party. The noble Viscount who had just sat down admitted that when Her Majesty's Government came into Office they were not acquainted with that great want of influence in the Councils of Europe from which England had suffered during the time they were in Office. He had the statement of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) that at the time when the present Government entered on Office, our relations with all foreign countries were on a satisfactory and honourable footing. As to the occurrences in Bulgaria, it had always been the custom of Her Majesty's Government and their supporters in the country to assert that the strong feelings which those occurrences aroused in this country were the result of Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet; but the fact was that the Earl of Derby's despatch, denouncing those outrages in the strongest terms, was written before that pamphlet. There was no doubt that Her Majesty's Government was suffering from a want of influence in many parts of the Continent and in many foreign countries. He would instance Turkey. The po-

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  licy of Her Majesty's Government had been a policy intended, in the main, to be friendly to Turkey. They had heard much of the integrity and independence of Turkey. Bat now the state of things was such—the influence of this country had fallen so low—that Ministers in that country, whose removal had been demanded, were not removed, but promoted and even decorated. Reforms had been promised in Asia Minor; but, after an interval of 21 months, they had not even been begun. The obligations undertaken by the Anglo-Turkish Convention had never been fulfilled. The noble Earl at the head of the Government, in a letter which had been much alluded to in the course of the evening, described the present state of Europe as being very critical. That phrase had been repeated that evening. From that their Lordships were desired to understand that unless power was again placed in the hands of Her Majesty's present Government, there would arise a general war in Europe, and that the peace of the world would be disturbed. It was, however, a curious fact, if the state of the world was so critical and dangerous, that Her Majesty's Government in the present year should have proposed no inconsiderable reduction in the Army and Navy Estimates. That course was certainly unjustifiable if taken in connection with the statements which had been made in their Lordships' House. Nothing could be more dangerous than a blustering policy unsupported by force. If Her Majesty's Government believed that the condition of the world was alarming, they were bound not to reduce armaments, but largely to increase them.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he rose to reply to some remarks of the noble Marquess who had just sat down, and that he did not purpose to go into the question of Asiatic reforms. That question could only be discussed properly on a full and calm review of all the Papers bearing on it. The noble Marquess had stated that when Her Majesty's Government came into Office they found the relations of the country with foreign Powers satisfactory. It was not, however, till years afterwards that the time arrived when Her Majesty's Government found it necessary to make the voice of England heard. It was then that they found that, both by the traditions of the Government which had gone
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  before and from the language which had been held from time to time by Members of that Government, the influence of this country was becoming weakened. The noble Marquess had said that the noble Earl the Prime Minister had stated that Her Majesty's Government were suffering from a want of influence on the Continent. But he wished to be allowed to state to their Lordships what was really the fact. What his noble Friend meant was perfectly plain and distinct; and it was this—that at the Dissolution of Parliament in this country, when those who were interested in politics were stating in their Addresses and speeches that the opinion of the country disapproved of the policy of the Government, that that was a course which tended to impair the influence of England. In that sense, and in that sense alone, his noble Friend had spoken of the arrest of the influence of this country on the affairs of Europe.
  LORD SELBORNEsaid, that the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack had stated that Her Majesty's present Government had found the influence of this country weakened abroad by the proceedings of their Predecessors. That was diametrically opposite to what had been stated by his Colleague, the former Foreign Secretary; who said, not merely in the formal manner usual in Queen's Speeches, that they found the relations of this country with Foreign Powers satisfactory, but that there never was a time at which the influence of this country stood higher. It seemed, however, that Her Majesty's present Government had in view some line of policy in which they found themselves thwarted, either by the effect of the previous policy, or of the active opposition, of their Predecessors. He should like to know exactly what that line of policy was. Was it simply war for Turkey against the liberties of her subject-races? Now, the one happy result of that miserable war was that the rights of those suffering races were established; and he, for one, rejoiced that what had taken place would prevent those races from being further down-trodden as they had been in former times. When the Bulgarian atrocities occurred, and a thrill of horror ran through the country, his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby), who was then the Foreign Secretary, fully shared those sentiments. If, then, it were meant that Her Majesty's Go-

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  vernment were less moved by those sentiments of humanity and compassion and had a policy opposed to the liberation of those subject-races, he, for one, rejoiced and counted it a most happy thing that they had not been able to carry out that course of policy.
  EARL GRANVILLEcalled attention to the fact that a few days after the present Government was formed, the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby), in his place, mentioned that he heard various reports about the waning influence of England. He found that was not the case, for at no time was the advice of this country more sought for or more effectual than at that time.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that, as the authenticity of the letter had been disputed, it was open to him to withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  RAMMINGEN'S NATURALIZATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to naturalize Alphons Freiherr Von Pawel Rammingen (in the Empire of Germany styled Baron de Pawel Rammingen) and to grant and confer on him all the rights, privileges, and capacities of a natural-born subject of Her Majesty the Queen—Was presented (on petition); read 1a.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Nine o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.