Lords Sitting of 12 March 1880

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod [No. 41].
PUBLIC BILLS—First Beading—Consolidated Fund (No. 1)*; East India Loan (East Indian Railway Debentures) * (36); India Stock (Powers of Attorney) * (37); Valuation (Metropolis) Act (1809) Amendment* (38); Blind and Deaf-Mute Children * (39); Municipal Corporations (Property Qualification Abolition) * (40); Army Discipline and Regulation (Annual) *; Common Law Procedure and Judicature Acts Amendment * (44).
Second Reading—Road Debts on Entailed Estates (Scotland)* (29).
Committee—Report—Solicitors Remuneration * (16–42); Limitation of Actions* (17–43); Beer Dealers Retail Licenses (27); Artizans Dwellings Act (1868) Amendment Act (1879) Amendment* (21).

SOUTH AFRICA—ZULULAND—SURRENDER OF ARMS.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, that, owing to an accident a Question which he had placed on the Notice Paper of the previous day, and which he had then postponed, did not appear on the Paper of to-day. He, however, asked the permission of the House to now put it, as he believed his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had expected it to appear on the Paper, and was prepared to answer it. Their Lordships were aware that one of the main conditions of the settlement of Zululand was that the Chiefs should deliver up the arms, not only of the Native troops, but those also which had been taken out from our troops. He was not able to find by any Reports in the Blue Books that this condition had been observed. He desired to know whether those arms had been, or were in process, of being delivered up? Nothing so much impressed upon the Native African mind the fact of being beaten as the having to deliver up arms. He understood that none of the Martini-Henry rifles, but only old muskets had been given up. The Colony of Natal had a great future before it, if it was left in peace; but it was impossible to regard the state of
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  the Colony as secure so long as the Zulus were left in possession of arms which they had proved themselves so thoroughly capable of using. Furthermore, he wished to point out that the British authorities at the Cape had not received anything like the number of King's cattle said by Sir Garnet Wolseley to be in possession of Cetewayo during the war and confiscated to us by the terms of the settlement. He had mentioned the name of Mr. John Dunn more particularly because it was understood that that person had considerable influence over the Natives, and that his word was accepted amongst them as law. The Government must look to him to keep to the terms of the Treaty he had entered into, and to use his influence with the Chiefs to do the same. He did not wish to say anything against Mr. John Dunn, who was an able man; but he put the question to their Lordships, whether it was a good thing for Zululand that a person possessing the peculiar views of Mr. Dunn should have been put in the country to represent the White man and Her Majesty's Government? Wherever the influence of the White man was felt it should be accompanied by at least the outward sign of Christianity. It unfortunately happened, however, that Mr. Dunn had matrimonial tendencies which did not find acceptance in this country either in quality or in quantity. It was said that he held with plurality of wives. Mr. Dunn also spoke disrespectfully of the Book on which the religion of Christianity was founded, and he had impeded the introduction of missionaries into Zululand. As for Natal, all that was required for the development of the great natural resources of that Colony was European honesty and European civilization. The noble Viscount concluded by asking the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any report has been been received from the British Resident in Zulu-land stating the number of guns, Martini-Henry rifles, and other war like stores, as well as of the late King's cattle, that have been delivered up in conformity with the conditions of peace; and whether the new Chiefs of Zululand, including Mr. John Dunn, are and will be held responsible for the fulfilment of those conditions?
  EARL GRANVILLEdrew attention to the fact that the noble Viscount's

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  Question not being on the Paper for that evening, it was not in accordance with the Rules of their Lordships' House that the noble Viscount should have put that Question, and in doing so made some interesting observations on an important subject, the introduction of which in that way was likely to lead to a debate.
  EARL CADOGAN, in reply, said, that the irregularity to which the noble (Earl Granville) had called attention had originated with him. On the previous evening his noble Friend (Viscount Sidmouth) asked him to inform the Clerk at the Table that he would put his Question that day. He forgot to do so in time to have the Question entered on the Paper. His noble Friend said he had seen no Reports of any surrender of arms in Zululand; but if he would turn to page 258 of the Blue Book he would find this passage in a despatch from Sir Garnet Wolseley—
  "Firearms have been surrendered by the people to the number of about 5,000—as large a proportion as I expected with any certainty to obtain. The total number owned before the war by the people is estimated by those best informed in the matter at 8,000. Even if we allow, for an under-estimate in this number, we have, I think, when counting the arms that have been lost or destroyed in action and destroyed by our patrols, received fully half the number in the country."
  That account was sent on the 30th of September, and received here on the 9th of October. In a despatch received on the 25th of October it was stated that several small quantities of arms had been sent in. The condition to which his noble Friend had referred was in these terms—
  "I will not import or allow to be imported into my territory, by any person upon any pretence or for any object whatsoever, any arms or ammunition from any part whatsoever, or any goods or merchandise by the sea coast of Zulu-land, without the express sanction of the Resident of the division in which my territory is situated; and I will not encourage, or promote, or take part in, or countenance in any way whatsoever, the importation into any part of Zululand of arms or ammunition from any part whatsoever, or of goods or merchandise by the sea coast of Zululand, without such sanction; and I will confiscate and hand over to the Natal Government all arms and ammunition and goods and merchandise so imported into my territory; and I will punish by fine or other sufficient punishment any person guilty of or concerned in such unsanctioned importation, and any person found possessing arms, or ammunition, or goods, or merchandise knowingly obtained thereby."
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  That condition was signed by all the Chiefs, including John Dunn. The instructions to the British Resident in reference to those matters were—
  "In dealing with the Chiefs, you will impress upon them that all the King's cattle now belong to the British Government, and must be handed over to you. Any of these cattle received by you should be sent to the senior Commissariat officer at Maritzburg. All the guns in the hands of the people also belong to the British Government. The Chiefs have promised to surrender these guns, and they must surrender them quickly, if they wish to stand well with the British Government."
  There was no Report since the 25th of October from the authorities—from the Lieutenant Governor, or the High Commissioner—but Her Majesty's Government presumed that the operation of restoring the arms was being carried out. The Colonial Office had written to Sir Garnet Wolseley for a Report of all the arms delivered up to the latest period. There was no Report as to the delivering up of cattle.

HIGHWAYS AND LOCOMOTIVES (AMENDMENT) ACT, 1878.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, he desired to call attention to the operation of the Highways and Locomotives (Amendment) Act, 1878; and asked, If it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose any alteration or amendment of this Act during the present Session? Also, to move for a Return of parishes in each county in England and Wales which are not included in highway districts. The noble Earl said, the object of the Act was, he presumed, to provide a substitute for turnpike trusts. The present law operated in many cases unequally, unfairly, and unjustly, throwing excessive burdens on the ratepayers. In one case he believed that 175 per cent had been added to the rates. As a rule, it had increased the expense of maintaining highways. Some roads, which were now parish roads, ought to be made main roads; but, in many cases, the parishes had no means of bringing the matter before the magistrates. A better system would be to have all highways made main roads, except those which the magistrates decided should remain parochial roads. As to the increase of rates, great relief had been given to the ratepayers in this country of late years in

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  several ways—by the payment of the salaries of the Poor Law officers, by the assistance given to lunatic asylums, and the large amount paid towards the police rate—and something of a similar kind might be done with regard to the highways—as payment of some portion of the salaries of their officers. He begged to ask the Question which stood on the Paper in his name, modified by substituting for the words "during the present Session," the words "when Parliament re-assembles."
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Return of parishes in each county in England and Wales which are not included in highway districts."—(The Earl De La Warr.)
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONcomplained that the existing Act had given rise to a very expensive staff of officials, and that their duties were not so efficiently discharged as they had been before. The amount of taxation thrown on parishes which had no turnpike roads was very serious. The practice of spreading the rates over wide districts naturally led to an increase of the rates, because the various localities had no interest in keeping them down. Then the rates fell heaviest on those who used the roads least. A very simple remedy, which would partially meet the case, was to put the main roads at once under the care of the county surveyor, making him responsible for the contract, and reverting, to a certain extent, to the old system with respect to the parish roads.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that he did not intend to follow the noble Earl into the very large subject of the incidence of local taxation which he had raised. His noble Friend wished to know whether the Government would deal with this question on the re-assembling of Parliament, and he was evidently very sanguine as to the result of the next Election. It was impossible for Her Majesty's Government to say, with anything like certainty, what they would do when that Parliament re-assembled. His noble Friend had objected greatly to the system of highway districts, which, he said, did not lessen the expense of the roads in the country; but he forgot, in connecting that with the Act of 1878, that it was the Act of 1864 which brought that system into operation, and that it was the
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  Act of a Government with which the present Administration had no connection whatever. Then his noble Friend found fault with the system of "disturnpiking" the roads in the country; but the Committee which gave its recommendations on that subject was composed of men who were well qualified to advise upon it, and his noble Friend would find it difficult to set up the old system of turnpikes again throughout the country; but the Act of 1878 modified, to a certain extent, the Act of 1864. He did not adopt the view taken by his noble Friend, because he thought that under the present law every parish in the country had an opportunity of bringing its case, as regarded roads, before the magistrates, who were the authorities best able to deal with it. For the magistrates to go over the country declaring what roads ought not to be main roads would be a cumbrous proceeding; and he demurred altogether to the statement of his noble Friend as to the alleged grievances of the parishes under the Act of 1878. It had lessened, and not increased, the expenses of the high roads. In any case, whether as to consolidation or amendment, future legislation must, of course, very much depend upon the fate which the Government would have to meet in the course of the next few weeks. As to the Return moved for by his noble Friend, it could not be compiled in a perfect form till after the 25th of March; and he would, therefore, urge on his noble Friend the advisability of allowing the matter to stand over until Parliament re-assembled.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he would feel no regret personally if Her Majesty's present Advisers should not have an opportunity, as a Government, of bringing in a Bill when the new Parliament assembled; but, if not, they would at least have the great consolation of not being called upon to try and amend the Highways Act of 1878. That Act was condemned almost unanimously by country gentlemen and farmers, whatever might be their politics, as a supreme and total failure. It was founded on the false principle of compelling people to perform a work for which they were incompetent. He did not think that it would be possible to go on long under the present system, and any Government that should be in Office after the General Election should propose an amendment

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  of the law. Some sort of uniformity was necessary, and they had gone from bad to worse.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)thought that the highways district system worked well; but it was unjust to throw the maintenance of the main roads upon the districts. The abolition of the turnpike system was a great error; because brewers and tradesmen, who used the roads very much, did not contribute their fair proportion towards the maintenance of the roads. The true system, he believed, was to take tolls. It was a very difficult subject, and required much consideration; but he confessed that the only way to maintain roads was to make those who used them pay for them.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

ARMY—SHORT SERVICE SYSTEM—REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYasked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether the Report of the War Office Committee appointed under the presidency of General Lord Airey to inquire into the causes of the "breakdown" of the "Brigade Depot" and "Short Service" systems has yet been received, and when it is proposed to lay that Report upon the Tables of the Houses of Parliament? He did not wish to raise a debate on the subject at present, and therefore confined himself to asking the Question.
VISCOUNT BURY, in reply, said, that in his Question the noble Earl put the word "breakdown" in inverted commas. If the noble Earl was under the impression that the Commission had been appointed to inquire into the "breakdown" of the system, he demurred to that, and must ask the noble Earl for his authority?
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, that last Session, during debates in that and the other House of Parliament, the system had been described as one which had broken down. In their Lordships' House a noble Earl (the Earl of Longford) went the length of saying that on going to one end of the House he heard a noble and gallant Officer describe the system as "rotten;" and on passing to the other end of the House he heard
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another noble and gallant Officer repeat that it was "rotten."
VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that he must demur to the form in which the Question had been put. He did not admit that any breakdown had occurred. There were defects in the system which were acknowledged, and Government determined there should be a Commission to inquire into the subject. But, looking at the way in which the Army had lately borne the strain of two wars on a peace establishment, it could not be fairly said that the system had broken down. The Government had determined that there should be a Commission consisting exclusively of military men, to inform them of the view taken by the Army of the question. But this inquiry was for the information of Government in the first instance, and the action to be taken upon it would be taken on the responsibility of Government. It was not, therefore, intended to make the Report public at present. The Report had been presented yesterday, but was not yet in type, and he could not say when it would be laid on the Table of the House.
LORD DORCHESTERsaid, that, although he objected to the word "breakdown" and the other elaborate terms which had been used, he felt very deeply, as an old soldier, the present state of the British Army. He thought that his noble Friend the Under Secretary had been somewhat flippant in criticizing such an expression. He thought that the word "shortcomings" would have been more appropriate. It had been his intention to ask simply whether the Commission which had been appointed in July last, and which had been talked about and debated upon in "another place," had come to any conclusion? He would ask to be allowed to call to the recollection of their Lordships the sensible speech of a Scotch Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) last Session upon the subject of Brigade Depôts.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he must call attention to the fact that the Question had been put and answered, and that there was then no Motion before their Lordships' House.
LORD DORCHESTERasked to be allowed to say that the noble Duke to whom he had referred had spoken of a breakdown in the Brigade Depot system in his part of the world.
THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, it was right for him, as a Member of the Commission, to mention to their Lordships that the inquiries of the Commission, and the conclusions at which they had arrived, were at present a profound secret.

BEER DEALERS RETAIL LICENSES BILL—(No. 27.)
(The Earl Stanhope.)
BEER DEALERS RETAIL LICENSES BILL—(No. 27.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Earl Stanhope.)
  LORD ABERDAREwas understood to ask whether those persons who obtained licences under this Bill would have to apply annually for a renewal?
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that the Bill was not the Bill of the Government, but had been introduced into the other House of Parliament by an independent Member, and only dealt with a very small matter. The change in the law it proposed was very slight. If any Amendments were made in the Bill there might be no time to obtain the assent of the other House. [The noble Earl was understood to answer the Question of the noble Lord (Lord Aberdare) in the negative.]
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he thought nothing was more absurd than to bring in a little Bill of this kind to make an exception to the general law. It would introduce a complete anomaly into the law; and he was surprised to see their Lordships agreeing to a Bill like this on the eve of an Election, simply because of the advantage it might give the Government in the country. There was a distinct difference between certain licences, and this Bill proposed to break down that distinction. The Bill would do very little good; but he did not think it would do any harm.
  EARL STANHOPEremarked, that the noble Earl who last spoke had stigmatized this measure as a trumpery little Bill. Then why should he make such a fuss about it?
  LORD DENMANsaid, that the front Opposition Bench seemed so sure of obtaining Office, that they might add the control of the Licensing Committee in
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  the next Parliament. He had seen in the newspaper (The Echo) that a noble agitator had had a fall in the Vale of Aylesbury, and so, like about to be victorious Cæsar, had taken possession of England; but very often—
  "Minaces
  "Turpe solum tetigere mento;"
  and it was perfectly ridiculous to suppose that the country would be influenced by the constant and petty criticisms to which, on the part of noble Lords opposite, a Ministry on its trial had been unfairly subjected.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly.
  Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Monday next.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Two o'clock.