Lords Sitting of 1 March 1880

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Indian Salaries and Allowances* (22).
Second Reading—Relief of Distress (Ireland) (19).
Royal Assent—Seeds (Ireland) [43 Vict. c. 1].

PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  LORD MONTEAGLE: I wish to ask the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council, Whether Her Majesty's Government have yet been informed that the greater number of works presented by the Special Baronial Sessions of the county of Mayo are proposed to be executed, not by contract, but by day work, or task work, under the supervision of the county surveyor; whether
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  the works so executed have been sanctioned by the Commissioners of Public Works; and, if so, what proportion?
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: In answer to the Question of the noble Lord, I have to say that we have no information on the subject.

RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.
(The Lord President.)
RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.

  (NO. 19.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he thought he was bound to establish two things—first, the existence of distress in Ireland; and, secondly, that the means which Her Majesty's Government had adopted, and were adopting, afforded every reasonable prospect of proving sufficient to meet a state of things concerning which great apprehension had

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  been felt. He did not think it necessary to enter into minute details on the subject, because he thought he was justified in assuming that the existence of the distress had been admitted; but he might assure their Lordships that this distress in all its details, so far as they could be ascertained, had occupied the attention of Her Majesty's Government since last September, and that, so far as a knowledge of the matter could aid them, the Ministry had every facility for dealing with the question. The Correspondence of the Public Works Commissioners, which had been laid on the Table of their Lordships' House, would explain what steps had been taken by the Government, from time to time, since September. The deficiencies in the food supply of Ireland, revealed by that Correspondence, were two. There was a large deficiency in the cereal crops, and there was a deficiency in the potato crop, which crop was also a defective one. That a great portion of the peasant population of Ireland depended on the potato crop was an undoubted fact. It was useless at the present moment to discuss the question of how much better it would be for them if they lived on a better diet. The Government had to deal with facts as they found them; and the information which had reached them led them to the belief that in consequence of the failure of the potato crop, coupled with the failure of the cereal crops, there would be very great distress in Ireland during the winter and the spring. Dr. Grimshaw, the Registrar General, in his preliminary Report on the Agricultural Produce in 1879 stated—
  "From the information contained under the first head, it is quite clear that food supplies produced in Ireland during the year 1879 must, so far as cereal and green crops are concerned, be considerably under the average. A close examination of the information contained in Table VI. shows that in the cereal and potato crops there is an immense deficiency, not only in the amount planted, but in the yield, the result relatively to the population being that, for the whole of Ireland, the quantity per head of the produce of cereal crops is only 3·8 cwt., as compared with an average for the 10 years 1869–78 of 4·9 cwt., and against 4·7 cwt. for 1878. In potatoes the deficiency is proportionately greater. The annual average amount of potatoes per head produced in Ireland during the past 10 years was 11·2 cwt., while in 1879 it was only 4·1, or about one-third. The amount per head in 1878 was 9·3 cwt., or more than double that of the present year."
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  In consequence of the immense rainfall of 1879, there was an apprehension as to fuel, that the turf would become so saturated as almost to destroy it in some cases, and that the supply would be greatly limited in many others. Therefore, it was obvious that there would be exceptional distress in some districts. Her Majesty's Government thought it wise to consider in time the pressure which might be felt in many of the Poor Law Unions of Ireland. On that point, the Secretary of the Irish Local Government Board reported under date the 28th of October, 1879—
  "Although it may reasonably be anticipated, from the causes above mentioned, that there will be a considerable increase in pauperism during the winter season, there does not seem to be any reason to apprehend that the resources of the Poor Law Unions will in general be unequal to the demands on them; but in some of the Unions referred to, in which the expenditure has already reached sums such as 4s. and 4s. 5d. in the pound, the strain on the poor rates will no doubt become excessive if employment is not to be obtained by the labouring classes, and if there should be a much greater demand for relief. The want of employment and the deficiency of fuel are the two principal features in the accompanying Reports which the Board submit for His Grace's consideration, and both subjects are of vital importance at the present time as affecting the prospects of the poor during the coming winter and the circumstances of many of the ratepayers in distressed districts."
  The Government had, therefore, to keep before them the probability that there would be a great strain on the Poor Law system of Ireland, and accordingly they thought it right to provide against what at the time appeared likely to prove a most lamentable state of things. It was their duty to see that the machinery of the Irish workhouses should afford the greatest accommodation possible for the reception of the largest number of persons who might be forced to seek shelter in these institutions. Accordingly, the Local Government Board, in a Circular to the Boards of Guardians, used this language—
  "Under these circumstances, the Local Government Board have to impress upon the Board of Guardians the importance of being prepared for the possible contingencies of the season, and of making due provision beforehand of ample stores of bedding and clothing to meet any degree of pressure on the workhouse which is likely to occur; they should also give directions to have the unoccupied wards in the workhouse thoroughly cleansed and whitewashed, and placed in every respect in good and habitable order."

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  Additional Inspectors were appointed to relieve the Poor Law Inspectors from the ordinary duties, and their instructions were to report to Her Majesty's Government, through the Lord Lieutenant, any distress that might come under their notice. In consequence of reports they received, the Government authorized Boards of Guardians to relax certain of the provisions of the Irish Poor Law in respect to the granting of out-door relief and the granting of relief to distressed persons not withstanding that they might be in possession of a quarter of an acre of land. But the Government thought they were bound to go further in providing against a serious emergency; and they thought that this could best be done by affording facilities for the employment of the poor in distressed districts which would have the effect of improving the country without pauperizing the population. Accordingly, a letter was addressed to the Treasury by Mr. Lowther, the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. In it were set out the views of the Lord Lieutenant on the subject, and it was dated November 14, 1879—
  "His Grace is of opinion that the gratuitous distribution of the necessaries of life to the able-bodied population, even where it could be legally afforded, would be productive of very serious evils, and, moreover, that any system of what are generally known as public relief works is open to great objection, and is calculated to lead to considerable abuse, and that it would, therefore, be far preferable that employment in the ordinary manner upon works of a reproductive or beneficial character should be afforded, if possible, by the landowners in the localities so affected."
  It appeared to him that, in considering the question, persons were rather apt to forget the circumstances in which they were then placed. He did not think that sufficient account was always taken of the circumstances existing at the time when it was necessary for Her Majesty's Government to take precautions against anything like famine. If at that time the Government had not taken every precaution to prevent not only the probability, but the possibility of anything like starvation in Ireland, they would have been open to the severest censure for their laches. It was in accordance with the views expressed in that letter that the Board of Works in Ireland were authorized to advance, on easy terms, to landowners and sanitary
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  authorities in distressed districts, loans for carrying on drainage and irrigation works, for erecting farm and cottage buildings, and other works, which would be of undoubted benefit to the country. The loans were to be charged interest at the rate of 1 per cent; no interest was to be charged for the first two years, the principle and interest to be covered in 35 years. It would be an important thing, while alleviating distress, to induce landowners to carry out works, so that the labourer should earn money which would supply himself with food. That would not pauperize him. Fearing, however, that in some districts landlords and the sanitary authorities might not be in a position to avail themselves of the opportunity afforded to them of obtaining those advances, the Government thought it right that power should be given to baronial sessions to undertake works of a public nature—works which would be generally beneficial to the locality in which they were constructed; and that advances should be made by the Government for those works at 1 per cent interest, the principal and interest to be repaid in 15 years. That was the proposition of the Government which had met with most opposition; but he believed that opposition had been founded on a mistaken idea of what was proposed to be done. It was alleged that the Government were reverting to the system of public works adopted in Ireland during the Famine of 1847–8; but he ventured to say that nothing could be more unlike that system than the proposal now made by Her Majesty's Government. In those days public money was lavished on public works. There was then a reckless waste of money in some parts of Ireland, and the works undertaken remained there as a warning to succeeding Governments against the course which was then adopted. In 1847 the works were constructed without anything like sufficient control; and as the money to pay for them was provided out of the Public Exchequer, everybody interested in the expenditure thought it right to get as much money as possible from that source. In the present case, the system was a very different one. The money was advanced to the locality under most stringent instructions issued by the Lord Lieutenant. The proposals were to be rigidly ex-

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  amined by the Commissioners of Public Works, and the money expended would be advanced to the ratepayers, who would have to repay it with 1 per cent interest in 15 years. It was manifest, therefore, that the ratepayers would not spend more money than was absolutely necessary to meet the emergency of the case. The instructions of the Lord Lieutenant would be found in the Papers on the subject already issued; and it would be found, from a Circular issued by the Commissioners of Public Works, that the wages to be paid to persons employed on those relief works were not to exceed the ordinary wages of the country. To show the working of the system, he would quote from a letter written to The Times by a noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle), who, within the last fortnight, had practical experience of the matter, because such experience ought to have more influence on their deliberations than any theoretical view. The letter, which was dated February 19, and was signed by the noble Lord as the Chairman of the Shanid Baronial Sessions, stated—
  "The Special Sessions of this barony were held on the 10th inst. There was considerable apprehension among those who remembered the scenes of 1846–8 that mob intimidation and jobbery would be rife. As a matter of fact, the conduct of the people was most exemplary. There were about 40 applications for relief works, of which eight were passed. All the eight were in districts where there was urgent need of employment, and seven of them were of undoubted public utility. The object of these Sessions had been clearly defined as being to meet the urgent want of employment where work was not likely to be provided otherwise. By keeping this principle steadily in view we were enabled to decide each case in the first place on the simple and narrow issue of 'urgency or not.' Urgency being voted, we then considered the question of utility where more than one application came from the locality in question. The Sessions themselves do not, therefore, seem to be liable to much abuse if due precautions are observed. Many of the abuses, however, dreaded by Lord Emly and others would arise (if at all) at a later stage, during the execution of the work. As no works have yet been sanctioned by the authorities in Dublin, no one can be sure that these abuses may not spring up. But as all works are to be executed here in the usual manner—i.e., either by contract or by sub-contracts under the county surveyor—there seemed to be comparatively little risk. It is worthy of note that in some cases contractors tendered for works in order to give employment, though they thought they would lose at the prices allowed by the Court, and gladly withdrew when they found the work might be done by sub-contracts under the
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  county surveyor. In conclusion, Sir, I have no hesitation in saying that so far the working of these Sessions in this barony has been successful in providing a most timely and necessary supplement to the improvement works undertaken by landlords and others, and I have every hope that they may be of great benefit to this locality and save the poor from distress, and other classes from difficulty and danger."
  It was proposed that the advances should be made out of the surplus of the Irish Church Fund. He thought that such a course was strictly within the provisions of the Irish Church Act, the 68th section of which was in these terms—
  "And whereas it is further expedient that the proceeds of the said property should be appropriated mainly to the relief of unavoidable calamity and suffering, yet not so as to cancel or impair the obligations now attached to property under the Acts for the relief of the poor, be it further enacted that the said proceeds shall be so applied accordingly in the manner Parliament shall hereafter direct."
  The Government might have proposed that money should be advanced for much greater works—such as railways, harbours, piers, and the like—but these would not have met the difficulty, because such works could have been constructed by large contractors from England and Scotland, and large numbers of workpeople would have been brought from these countries to Ireland; and the people of Ireland would, therefore, not have received the benefit of the outlay which was made. As their Lordships were aware, Her Majesty's Government had sanctioned measures somewhat in advance of their powers; but they had not hesitated to anticipate the sanction of Parliament to the measures they had adopted, because they felt that when their object was to prevent a famine in Ireland Parliament would be sure to grant them the indemnity asked for in the Bill to which he now asked their Lordships to give a second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEreminded their Lordships that a few nights ago the House had been engaged in a discussion upon the state of Ireland, and this Bill was a remarkable illustration of it. Indeed, there could not be a more significant one. The agricultural interest had suffered in England during the last few months quite as much as it had in Ireland; but no proposal had been

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  made to Parliament on account of the agricultural distress in any other part of the United Kingdom. It was for Ireland alone that Her Majesty's Government had to come to Parliament with a measure as extraordinary as the Bill before the House. What was that measure? Parliament was going to lend public money—a portion of the surplus of the Irish Church Funds—at a nominal rate of interest, and it was going to impose heavy taxation upon a population verging on bankruptcy to relieve a population already bankrupt. It was going to enable the Boards of Guardians to mortgage the rates for the relief of the poor, and to adopt the vicious system of not making the year's income meet the year's expenditure—a course in which they would at a respectful distance imitate the practice of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the finances of the nation. He was not about to oppose the proposal of Her Majesty's Government; because, objectionable as were the provisions of the Bill, he thought that, on the whole, they were as little objectionable as any which could have been devised in the circumstances. There were two ways of meeting the distress in Ireland—namely, either by direct relief in the shape of food or money to buy food, or by providing public works at which the people could earn wages to support themselves. In adopting the latter system, Her Majesty's Government had, he thought, come to a wise conclusion. The difficulties of meeting destitution by a direct distribution of food were very great. If with such a plan they waited till starvation set in, the calamity would overtake them, instead of their overtaking the calamity. If, on the other hand, they anticipated starvation and embarked upon a vast system of public relief, that would involve wholesale and indiscriminate almsgiving with all the objectionable results which were sure to follow from charity distributed in such a manner. Such a course could not fail to lead to endless misrepresentation, and must have a demoralizing effect on the country at large. As showing this, he would read an extract from a letter written by a Roman Catholic priest in the South of Ireland to the Belief Committee of his town—
  "As soon as it became known that I had charity to give out, there was a rush from one
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  end to the other of the district. The giving of charity in this way is the greatest curse that could fall upon a people. It demoralizes and damns them; they become liars and everything else that is bad. I am sick of the business. Had they employment, I would make them work or let them starve."
  It might be said that in 1846 and 1847 the labour system was tried and failed. The circumstances of the present time were, fortunately, very different from those of the period of the great Famine. In those times there was in Ireland a population larger by 3,000,000 than that of the present time. Destitution, instead of being confined to a limited area, was general all over the country. The Labour Rate Act was in operation in 1,826 out of the 2,049 electoral divisions into which the country was divided. Then the means of communication were much less, railways were fewer, and there was no telegraphic communication, and the trade in Indian meal, on which the people had, for the most part, to be fed, had not been established. Worse than all, the long continuation of the distress had so enfeebled the people in mind and body that they were incapable of work, and would have starved if food had not been put into their mouths by Government agency. The circumstances now were wholly different. There was plenty of food in the country, the people were able and willing to work, and all they asked for was work and the means of earning their own support. He rejoiced that the Government had acceded to that prayer, and that they relied upon these steps, rather than upon a wide extension of out-door relief. He must express a hope that the Government would not extend the principle of out-door relief beyond the limits proposed in this Bill. Of course, in a time of exceptional distress, it was unwise to retain the operation of the quarter-acre clause; but if ever out-door relief came to be administered in Ireland as it was in this country there would be no limits to the abuses to which it would give rise. In Ireland, while in the last 18 years in-door relief had remained stationary or had slightly decreased, the amount of out-door relief had more than trebled. If any change were to be made, instead of assimilating the Irish to the English law, they should assimilate the English to the Irish law in respect of out-door relief. He approved for many reasons the course taken by the Government in making

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  advances to the landlord for works. In the first place, the Government would have a security that the funds would be expended upon works of real utility; no unnecessary works would be undertaken by the landlord, who would have a direct interest in seeing that those which were undertaken would be of a permanently beneficial character. He had come lately from a district where hundreds of men were employed by the landowners in the improvement of their farms; and he believed the stimulus thus given to industry would have a most valuable effect. It was quite a mistake to think that the labourers were withdrawn from the cultivation of their own farms; they had, on the contrary, expended upon their own land, under the pressure of adversity, a great amount of energy which he was afraid had been hitherto latent. One part of the Bill had been rather severely criticized—that, namely, which related to works to be undertaken under the special baronial sessions. It ought to be remembered that there was to be an official supervision of these works; and, therefore, he did not think there would be that risk of abuse in respect of them which some of his noble Friends seemed to anticipate. The works could not be undertaken without the approval of the Boards of Guardians, the baronial sessions, and the Lord Lieutenant, and would be under the control of the Board of Works. As far as he had had an opportunity of reading the accounts of meetings on the subject, there was no disposition to misuse the facilities offered by this part of the Bill, which, as the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) had pointed out, were, after all, supplementary to the principal provisions of the measure. He ventured, however, to make one suggestion. It was that there should be a power of charging works undertaken by baronial sessions to a portion of the barony only when that might be advisable. It would be hard upon the landlords who gave employment which covered the distress, say in four-fifths of a barony, that they should be taxed to provide works for the remaining fifth. He would turn from the provisions of the Bill to a more important question. It was whether the extraordinary measures now being sanctioned were necessary only in order to meet an accidental emergency, or whether they were
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  surrounded by circumstances which made it all but certain that at no distant day they would be compelled to have recourse to such measures again. He was afraid that the latter was the case. The causes of distress in Ireland were various and complicated; but he had no hesitation in saying that the main cause was the concentration of large masses of population within areas incapable of supporting them. Other causes were, no doubt, alleged; but these were subsidiary. It was said, for instance, that the Irish peasant was a bad workman. He was afraid there was some truth in the statement. Among the small cottier tenants of Ireland skilled cultivation was rare, and industry too often intermittent and occasional. Then it was said he was intemperate. Well, no doubt there was an enormous amount of intemperance in Ireland. In two towns of which he had some knowledge, the one with a population of 1,200, the other with a population of 2,000, there were in the first 26 public-houses and only 27 other houses of business; and in the other 52 public-houses and only 72 other business premises. Again, the system of indiscriminate giving and taking of credit was pointed to as one of the causes of the recent collapse; and he admitted that no one who was familiar with Ireland could close his eyes to the deplorable results of this practice. These were, however, only the secondary causes of the state of things with which they had to deal. If the Irish peasants were as sober as judges, and as industrious as market gardeners, they could not in many parts of the country support themselves upon the miserable holdings of which they were the occupants. While this state of things continued there would be distress, and while there was distress there would be disaffection in Ireland. What were the facts in the case of the three counties of Donegal, Mayo, and Galway, three counties which had been conspicuous for the amount of destitution within them? In Donegal there were 17,000 tenants with a valuation of £4 a-year and under; in Galway, 18,000; and in Mayo, 20,000. They paid, perhaps, £5 or £6 a-year rent, and they lived in habitations unfit for human beings. There were 227,000 families living in mud cabins of a single room in Ireland. These people did not profess to live on the agriculture of their

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  country. Many of them came over to try and eke out a livelihood by labouring in the fields in this country. It was calculated that one Irish county had lost something like £100,000 by the fluctuations of the English labour market. It was said that the excessive rent which these people paid to their landlords was the cause of their suffering; but how did the case stand? The average cost of maintaining a pauper in the Irish Unions was something like £9 a-year, exclusive of "establishment charges." Let it be assumed, for argument's sake, that these peasants were able to support life with £5 a-year. Take the case of a man with six children—eight of a family altogether. To provide them merely with food and clothing would take some £40 a-year—that was to say, that before these people could pay a shilling of rent they would have to make out of the land a sum of £40 or £50. How could any reduction of rent meet a case of that kind? A landlord might give 40 or 60 per cent back, or the whole of the rent; but the tenants would none the less be in distress whenever the potatoes failed. What, then, became of the statement, so frequently and heedlessly made, that those people were ruined in consequence of the exorbitant rents they had to pay to their landlords? They might expropriate the landlords altogether, they might try Communistic schemes, they might lend money at nominal rates of interest; but they would never get rid of the recurring disaffection or distress until some change took place in the distribution of the population. He wished he could say—"Here is the disease! This is the remedy!" But he felt bound to confess that he knew of no Royal road to an improvement in the condition of those parts of Ireland. It was easy to say—"Why do not the people emigrate?" A great many writers and speakers talked boldly of emigration in principle, but had very little to say when it came to the question of applying that principle in practice. The question of emigration was full of almost insuperable difficulties. There was the unconquerable repugnance of the people to leave their country; and there was the hardship that would be felt if large masses were suddenly removed in all their helplessness from the homes to which they so tenaciously clung. Then they had the fact that
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  the Western Irish peasant was by no means always a suitable subject for emigration. Strong, able-bodied, skilled workmen might do. But these half-starved, uneducated, unskilled peasants of the West would not be raised to a prosperous condition merely by being transported to the other side of the sea. A Government which would commit itself to a wholesale scheme of State-aided emigration would, in his opinion, show more courage than judgment. It was, however, none the less true that it was only to a gradual re-distribution of a part of the population of Ireland that they could look for a lasting amelioration of their condition, and to this end the efforts of landlords and tenants alike should be directed. The time would, he believed, come when many of the Irish farmers would recognize that it was better both for those who left the country and for those who remained behind that five families should live in comfort and decency upon a given area than 10 in squalor and misery. Education was spreading, the intelligence of the people would be developed, their material wealth had, until the last year or two, increased steadily, the legitimate grievances of the Irish nation had been to a large extent redressed, disaffection though, noisy and irritating, was, he believed, less deep and less dangerous than of old. It was their duty to bide their time, ruling the country in the meanwhile patiently, firmly, and justly, bearing in mind that if any good results were to attend their efforts they would be accorded to those who had learnt, not only how to labour, but how to wait.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEpointed out that the emigration from Ireland had been much greater within the last 20 years than, in proportion to the population, it had been from England. Nearly 2,500,000 of people had emigrated from Ireland in that time, and about 4,000,000 from England, the latter having a population six times as large as that of the former. There was no ground, therefore, for saying that the people of Ireland did not wish to emigrate. It would be well if Her Majesty's Government would consider whether some continuous assistance should not be given to enable the poorer classes in Ireland to emigrate. He received letters almost every day from these people asking him to aid them. It might

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  be thought by Englishmen that Irish landlords would, if they were encouraged, be too ready to get rid of their smaller tenants for several reasons—first, if they got possession it would be four or five years before they could get a return for their money, because the land was so divided and so badly cultivated. Again, if the tenants were displaced at the present time, no landlord's life would be safe for an hour. He hoped the noble Duke would give some further explanation as to works already proposed at the extraordinary baronial sessions, and as to the number of those works which had been approved by the Board of Works in Ireland. If the Government were to carry out all they proposed by this Bill, they would impose on ratepayers in Ireland a far heavier rate than had ever been passed or paid in the richer country of England, where ratepayers were accustomed to rates heavier than those imposed upon ratepayers in Ireland, for in Ireland there was only land to tax; in England, horses and often property. This was a case in which the principle of a rate in aid might fairly be put in operation. He thought some assurance should be given to the ratepayers in distressed localities that they would not have to bear the whole of the burden which the Bill in its present shape would cast upon them. The Government did not say whether any aid should be given to railways in Ireland. The present Prime Minister said in 1848 the only good work done by the Liberal Government of that time was the lending of some money for the purpose of carrying out railways in Ireland. He hoped that while Her Majesty's Government were passing measures of relief they would give some reason why the principal mover in disturbing the peace of the country—he referred to Mr. Parnell—was allowed with impunity to use language as violent as had ever been used by any of those whom the Government had prosecuted. The public at large wanted to know why some step was not taken by the Government against the utterer of a slander against Her Majesty with reference to the former Famine, and the utterer of slanders against charitable persons who were engaged in collecting money in England for the relief of distress in Ireland. The people of Ireland would say Mr. Parnell was too strong for the Government, and they durst not touch him.
  LORD WAVENEYthanked the Government for having introduced the Bill, which he regarded as a very well-considered one; but the power which was reserved to the Lord Lieutenant with regard to the operation of the Bill appeared to him to be very large. With regard to the question of emigration the population of Ireland was not its weakness, it was its strength; but they lacked the science of proper distribution. They saw Ireland presented as an eleemosynary recipient of charities from all sides; and though this source of aid might greatly improve the condition of the country precautions would have to be taken lest the annals of 1846 and 1847 should become the annals of 1880 and 1881. With timely assistance he believed that the natural strength of Ireland would be sufficient to restore permanent prosperity. Ireland enjoyed an endless power of fertility. In affording relief to the country, however, it would have to be remembered that Ireland was not composed of one homogeneous population, but contained large elements of variety.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWNrecommended the encouragement of emigration from such parts of Ireland as were incapable of yielding a sufficiency of food for the sustenance of their population in order to relieve the local pressure. He suggested that the landlords of Ireland should be urged, through the instrumentality of the Land Committee now sitting in Dublin, to promote such emigration, and that they should be assisted by the Government in carrying out the object. To his own knowledge, such emigration had taken place with the best effect on an estate with which he was acquainted, at the time when the introduction of the power-looms had superseded the hand-looms; and he never heard that any objection or indisposition to this measure was manifested by those who availed themselves of it.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENsaid, that the Government proposed to advance sums from the Irish Church Fund, and there ought to be some special odour of sanctity about that money to prevent its being improperly used; but he feared it would be spent in constructing unnecessary works. The fact was that up to the present moment they knew nothing as to the proceedings of special baronial sessions held in districts where

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  great distress was to be found. All that was known as to the holding of such sessions had relation to districts in which little or no distress was known to exist. For his own part, he did not prefer the employment of relief works to the supply of food, for though it was perfectly true that food would be of no use where starvation had already taken place, it was equally true that money would be, in those cases, just as useless. He admitted the force of the argument that the better system of communication existing now would save districts from the extreme distress experienced in 1846 and 1847; but he could not see how this system of communication would be able to change the whole course of events. It would be necessary to import food into the districts which were not without it. In the Famine in the years he had referred to the system of relief works had broken down in those localities where no food was to be got for the money earned. It was said that Irish peasants were unskilful and not apt to learn; but, so far as his own experience went, Irishmen adapted themselves to various kinds of work more readily than any men he had ever met with. No people were better for emigrants; they took more kindly to all sorts of handicrafts than other people did, and they could make a living in a new country sooner than most people. He had his own ideas of what the Government ought to do upon this subject of emigration, and if they agreed with him they would be able to evolve a satisfactory scheme. It appeared upon the preface of the Bill that no person would be able to receive out-door relief for a longer time than two months; but he feared there would be great distress in the spring and summer and before harvest time came round. There was great distress now in some parts; but there had been much exaggeration in regard to other places. After the seed was put into the ground distress would, generally speaking, be felt more than at other periods.
  LORD MONTEAGLE, as Chairman of a baronial sessions in Limerick county, said, that as regarded land improvements in Ireland there could be no doubt that the measures now before the country had been of substantial benefit to that country, and had averted those serious dangers with which that country was threatened in the autumn and winter.
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  The Chief Secretary for Ireland had stated that armed bands of men were going over the country intimidating tenants so as to prevent them paying their rents. Many of their Lordships were aware that that state of things was, fortunately, confined to a small and, he was happy to say, diminishing portion of the country. It was greatly to the credit of the Irish landlords—of whom he was not one—that they had largely abated the rents—and that not, as he believed, at all in consequence of the agitation which prevailed; and, further, they had forgiven arrears of rent to a very considerable extent. With regard to the Circular letter of the Local Government Board which had been addressed to all the Unions in Ireland, dated 12th January, he could not help noticing the lapse of time between that Circular and the one first issued by the Government, dated 22nd November, because the first attempt of the Government to alleviate the distress was made on the 22nd of November of last year. He thought there could be no doubt that that Circular had been quite inadequate for the purpose; indeed, he believed the Chief Secretary for Ireland had himself stated as much. It seemed to him (Lord Monteagle) that since the 22nd of November the Government had had ample opportunity for arriving at the true state of the country; and he confessed that, much as he welcomed the further facilities they offered on the 12th of January, he could not but think that they might have offered those facilities earlier, because in the beginning of the autumn all the classes of the country were embarrassed and in difficulties. The farmers had been embarrassed by the weather, which had been unfavourable alike to grass lands and green crops, as well as to that most important crop—potatoes. In point of fact, the Government had apprehended that the harvest would be deficient. He attributed, however, much of the present difficulties to the system of credit among the farming classes which had attained such gigantic and unfortunate proportions. There was no doubt that, with abatements they had been obliged to make to their tenants, and with the serious arrears which existed in many cases, the landlords were in a very difficult position as regarded the distress that existed, and their action was very much hampered so far as providing work went. Under the circumstances, the

  19
  Government must have been very well acquainted with the facts during the whole of the summer and autumn, for they were in everybody's mouth. The Circular which had been issued by the Government had received its death-blow—in what way precisely he did not care to inquire. It did not very much matter whether it had been sent back to Downing Street or not. What was the gist of the Circular? It consisted of what was not inaptly expressed to him in Ireland, in somewhat homely phrase, as being "two years' tick" or credit to the landlords of Ireland. Under that Circular £113,795 had been applied for, while between the 12th and 28th of January the sum applied for was still greater. Now, with respect to relief works, he was surprised to hear the noble Earl beside him (the Earl of Dunraven) state that he considered relief in food to be better than the giving of remunerative employment. In that view he could not concur. During the Famine of 1848 the works were carried out under the Central Government; but now the improved system was adopted of having them carried out by the local authorities. The noble Earl said that they had no information before them on the subject of the works. Well, he had collected some figures on the subject which he would lay before their Lordships. There were in County Limerick 14 baronies, 11 of which had held special sessions. The number of applications to the sessions amounted to 204, and for an estimated expenditure of £26,000. The number presented was 96, and the expenditure sanctioned £9,000, and all the works authorized were to be carried out in districts where there was strong evidence of want of employment. In County Clare there were 11 baronies, and in nine special sessions had been held. Of 134 applications for an estimated expenditure of £55,000, 56 had been granted, the authorized expenditure being£6,0i.0. County Galway contained 17 baronies, and four special sessions had been held, two of which were adjourned. Two hundred and sixty applications were made, the estimated expenditure being £68,000, and as yet an expenditure of £4,000 had been authorized. In Mayo 1,400 applications were to be made at a cost of £196,000; 471 applications had been granted at a cost of £26,000. With regard to the most important part
  20
  of the Bill—the question whether work was to be carried out by contract, or by day and task work—he trusted the noble Duke would be able to give the House some re-assuring information. If it should be proved that the Government sanctioned work not carried out by contract, the House, he thought, would view the Bill in an entirely different light. His suggestion was that the execution of works under the direction of baronial sessions should be limited to contract works.
  LORD EMLYpointed out that the reason for giving powers to grant relief in money was simply to meet the existing wants of the individual, and, therefore, some of the criticism would not apply. It had been said that some of the work was done by contract. Well, as long as it was done by contract, he was afraid the evils were not likely to pass over. There was only one other remark he had to make. The main point was that assistance should be given for reproductive works. He had been informed that in several districts in Ireland the Department of the Government which had the management of the reproductive works—the Board of Works in Ireland—had entirely broken down from their being overworked. It had been stated to him in one case that an application made on the 20th of November was not yet granted, and then, of course, the contemplated assistance to be given would fail. He had heard a similar statement from another quarter; and a gentleman of very great experience on the subject had used the expression that the Board of Trade had "broken down." The Government would surely inquire into that matter, and ascertain whether those statements were correct. The only way of removing the inconvenience complained of was, he believed, to urge on these productive works; and it was a matter of so much importance that he would call the noble Duke's special attention to it. No doubt, the noble Duke would look to it and see that the Board of Trade was in a position to perform its duty; and, if not, take steps to have it strengthened.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.