Lords Sitting of 22 June 1880

MINUTES.
TOOK THE OATH—The Earl of Bantry.
EARLDOM OF MAE.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAY: I beg to give Notice to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that on Thursday, July 1st, I shall move—
  That in accordance with the Resolution agreed to by this House on the 14th June, "That it is incumbent upon this House to rescind their Order of 26th February 1875, which ran as follows, viz.: 'That at the future meetings of the Peers of Scotland assembled under any Royal Proclamation for the election of a Peer or Peers to represent the Peerage of Scotland in Parliament, the Lord Clerk Register, or the Clerks of Session officiating thereat in his name, do call the title of Earl of Mar according to its place on the Roll of Peers of Scotland called at such election, and do receive and count the vote of the Earl of Mar claiming to vote in right of the said earldom, and do permit him to take part in the proceedings of such election;'" to resolve that the said Order be rescinded, and that intimation to that effect be made to the Lord Clerk Register of Scotland.

OUTRAGES (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKmoved for a Return of all robberies and attempted robberies of arms which have been reported by the Royal Irish Constabulary between the 1st of January 1878 and the 31st of March 1880, giving particulars of crime, arrests, and results of proceedings in the following form:—Number, date, and name of persons whose arms were taken or attempted to be taken; offence, giving description and short details of persons made amenable and the result of the proceedings. The noble Earl said, he moved for this Return, which was supplemental to the Return which the Lord President of the Council moved for a short time ago with regard to agrarian crime.
  EARL SPENCERsaid, he did not move for the Return referred to.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKbegged pardon for the mistake he had made. He referred to the Return which the late Lord President of the Council laid upon the Table. That Return contained the number of agrarian crimes in Ireland committed during the course of 1879 and the first month of the present year, and many of their Lordships considered that that Return showed a state of things in Ireland which was by no means satisfactory. The number of offences contained in that Return was no less than 979; but from the nature of the Return it was im-
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  possible to include in it a number of very grave offences, which also, he thought, showed a very unsatisfactory state of things in Ireland—namely, robberies, and attempted robberies of arms. He believed offences of this character had prevailed to a great extent throughout Ireland during the last year; and he knew, from his own personal experience, that in a very small district indeed no less than six outrages had been committed within the space of a very few miles in a very short space of time by armed bands varying in number from two to ten, with different degrees of violence. From his own experience, he feared that the number of these offences committed throughout Ireland in the course of the year must have been very considerable. It could scarcely be supposed that the object of the persons engaged in those outrages was mere robbery, or that their intention was to use the arms only in shooting hares and rabbits. It was to be feared that they desired possession of arms for a purpose much more serious. The form in which he moved for the Return was identical with that adopted in the Return relating to agrarian outrages to which he had referred. He trusted it would be found that he was wrong in assuming that this particular class of crime had been numerous; but he thought, in any case, it would be desirable to have information on the subject.
  EARL SPENCER: Her Majesty's Government have no objection to grant the Return for which my noble Friend has moved.
  Motion agreed to.
  Return of all robberies and attempted robberies of arms which have been reported by the Royal Irish Constabulary between the 1st of January 1879 and the 31st of March 1880, giving particulars of crime, arrests, and results of proceedings in the following form:—Number: Date of Offence: Names of Persons whose Arms were taken or attempted to be taken: Offence:—Description; Short Details; Names of Persons made amenable: Result of Proceedings.—(The Earl of Limerick.)
  Ordered to be laid before the House.

DISTRESS (IRELAND)—EVICTIONS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ANNESLEYasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether Her Majesty's Government would pro-

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  cure a Return of the number of evictions in Ireland for non-payment of rent during the years 1878 and 1879 in each Poor Law Union scheduled under the Belief of Distress (Ireland) Act? The noble Earl said, he wished to explain the reasons which had induced him to put this Question to Her Majesty's Government. A large number of evictions were said to have taken place in Ireland of late; and in consequence of that statement he thought the Government, especially as legislation was to be proposed on a principle never before heard of in any civilized country, were bound to allow the persons who had commited these evictions to be known to the public, if there were any such persons. He himself did not believe that there had been in Ireland during the last few years a great number of evictions. On his own estate in the county of Down, on which there were more than 1,700 tenants, within the last 10 years there had not been a single eviction except at the instance of the tenants themselves. He was not stating this in order to take any credit for it to himself or any of his predecessors, because he believed the the same state of things was the case upon a very large majority of the estates in Ireland. If the Government would consent to give the information which he asked for to the country, he was quite prepared to alter the Return in any way his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council desired, so long as the main facts were disclosed. He also wished to call the attention of his noble Friend to the wording of his Question. He wished to ascertain the number of ejectments that had been carried out, but did not want to know how many had been served, because many tenants had to have ejectments served upon them in order to induce them to pay their rent.
  THE EARL OF LELTRIMwished to corroborate the statement which had been made by the noble Earl, and also to mention a few facts to the House. Speaking from his own personal experience, and following the steps of the noble Earl, he could say that last year in Donegal, when he went to that part of the country, the tenants absolutely refused to make any payment of rent, although they were at the time two years in arrears. In consequence, he had been obliged to send out notices— upon which there were no costs—but
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  not a single tenant would respond. What was the result? Of course he had to proceed to the last extremity, and served, accordingly, notices upon every town land on the estate. He believed he served as many as 260 ejectments; and when the tenants found he was not to be trifled with, they at once came in and paid what they could, the result being that he received between £8,000 and £10,000 without any really severe pressure upon the tenantry. But how many of these ejectments had been executed? Why, he did not think three tenants had been evicted, and still nearly every tenant owed him more than one year's rent; some of the tenants owed him three or four years' rent. He had not taken advantage of that; but, as a Pill to punish the Irish landlords was going to be introduced by Her Majesty's Government in "another place," he thought it desirable that the information now asked for should be furnished to Parliament.
  EARL SPENCER: I have no objection to accede to the request of the noble Earl who put the Question. With regard to what he has stated as to the evictions, as far as I understand the Return that will be made, it will refer to the actual evictions made, and not the mere notices of evictions. In addition to the Return asked for, I would suggest that the Return should be extended so as to include the early months of this year. I think that is an important addition to the Return asked for by my noble Friend. As he does not move actually for the Return, I may say that I am prepared to grant the Return on the part of Her Majesty's Government, and I will confer with the noble Earl, if he will allow me, as to the actual form in which I shall present the Return. It will be necessary for me to consult with the Chief Secretary in the matter; but after doing so I will consult the noble Earl.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, that one of the special charges made against the Irish landlords was that the existing distress had been used by some landlords to enforce evictions; and it was a question whether it might not be well to see the proportion which those evictions in the distressed districts bore to the evictions to the country generally.
  THE EARL OF ANNESLEYsaid, he agreed to the alterations proposed by the Lord President of the Council; but

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  he should like to ask whether Her Majesty's Government would give a Return of all the landlords in Ireland? He should very much like to know how many evictions had taken place throughout the whole of Ireland.
  EARL SPENCERthought the best course would he for him to confer with the noble Earl below the Gangway (the Earl of Limerick) and the noble Earl who had asked the Question; but he must point out that it would be impossible for Her Majesty's Government to grant what the noble Earl wished— namely, to give the names of all the landlords who had evicted tenants. He thought it would not be possible for the Government to grant that, although they would extend the Return to the whole of Ireland.
  THE EARL OF ANNESLEYsaid, he merely said that he himself should have liked to know how many evictions had taken place in Ireland; but he thought that Her Majesty's Government could hardly take the responsibility of refusing the country the Return he asked for, considering the extraordinary nature of the legislation that was about to be proposed.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYpointed out that the Lord President of the Council had not refused to grant the Return, but only said that he could not grant the names of the landlords who had evicted tenants.
  House adjourned at a half past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.