Lords Sitting of 1 June 1880

MINUTES.
TOOK THE OATH—Several Lords.
Sat First in Parliament —The Earl Lines (Duke of Roxburghe), after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS — First Heading — Prayer Book Amendment*(7a); Local Courts of Bankruptcy (Ireland)*(76).
Second Reading —Settled Land (60); Limitation of Actions* (61); Conveyancing and Law of Property* (62); Solicitors Remuneration* (63).

SETTLED LAND BILL—(No. 60.)
(The Earl Cairns.)
SETTLED LAND BILL—(No. 60.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª"—(The Earl Cairns.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: When the Bills which my noble and learned Friend is now introducing were before your Lordships in the last Session of Parliament, it may be recollected I was of opinion that the two principal Bilk relating to settled lands and to the law of conveyancing and real property would effect material and substantial improvements in the law as it at present stands. Having expressed that opinion, I now in no way recede from it. But the Government consider that it will be their duty during the interval between the present and next Session to consider deliberately and maturely various branches of the law relating to land and real property, to some branches only of which these Bills have reference; and they think there might be some inconvenience if they were to take any definite part at present with respect to these Bills, which might, perhaps, afterwards be found to clash, in a manner which it may not be possible at this time accurately to foresee, with other changes to be hereafter proposed. Underthesecircumstances, the course I propose to take is certainly not to throw any obstacle in the way of the passing of these Bills through your Lordships' House in the form which my noble and learned Friend may think best; but the Government reserve to themselves the freest action as to the course which they may pursue with respect to these measures if they should go down to the other House of Parliament.
  EARL CAIRNSsaid, he was very glad to find that his noble and learned Friend

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  on the Woolsack, on a further examination of these Bills, did not see reason to recede from the favourable opinion he had expressed of them when they were introduced in the last Parliament. He owned, however, that, in the circumstances, he could not help regretting the statement of his noble and learned Friend that no assistance need be expected from the Government in passing the Bills into law. It was quite true that the Bills dealt with only a part of the whole question of land in this country; but as what was contained in them had met with, as far as he could observe, unanimous approval, he could not see why they should not become law, even though Her Majesty's Government intended at a future time to go into the whole of the Land Laws. He was afraid, from what his noble and learned Friend had said, that not only would these Bills not become law this Session; but that in a future Session proposals would be made the effect of which would be to endanger, if not prevent, their passing into law. All he could do was to ask their Lordships to give their assent, and then the Bills would go down to the House of Commons. As to the steps which might be taken there, he could not, of course, anticipate. It would be for that House to say whether they would press upon the Government the desirability of passing the Bills into law in the present Session. As he explained the provisions of all four Bills in the last Parliament, he would confine himself on the present occasion to moving the second reading, and saying that he proposed to take the Committee on each of them next Thursday week.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, that in Committee he should propose that so much of the Bill as related to a tenant for life making improvements out of his own funds should be made retrospective, and to take effect, if desired, during the life of such limited owner.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHbelieved that, if the principles of the noble and learned Earl's Bills had met with that unanimous approval of which the noble and learned Earl had spoken, it was because they had never been carefully considered. If the Bill now before their Lordships ever became law, it would be an absolute destruction to all settlement of land. It gave power to the tenant for life to convey absolutely, without interference by any party, the
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  freehold estate of which he had the life interest. There were certain safeguards in the measure, but none which would prevent that. In this Bill the present, Government had a measure of Radicalism which they could not exceed.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole Souse on Thursday the 10 th instant.
  On the Motion of Earl CAIRNS, the Limitation of Actions Bill, the Conveyancing and Law of Property Bill, and the Solicitors Remuneration Bill were also severally read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 10th instant.

ARMY (INDIA)—LIEUTENANT REID, 51ST REGIMENT

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD WAVENEYasked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether the details of the death of Lieutenant Thurlow of the 51st Regiment have been correctly reported in the public Press; and whether it is proposed to recommend that any special mark of Her Majesty's favour be conferred upon his surviving comrade, Lieutenant Reid, of the same regiment? The noble Lord called the attention of the House to the gallant character of the feat of arms that appeared on the record. It appeared that the two young soldiers, of barely one year's service, who were with the Forces in Afghanistan— Lieutenant Thurlow and Lieutenant Reid, of the 51st Regiment—were on the high road, about three miles distant from the post to which they were attached, when they were suddenly attacked by a body of hill men, numbering from 30 to 40, and Lieutenant Thurlow was killed, two bullets entering his head and neck. The pony of Lieutenant Reid bolted with its rider; but as soon as that officer could master the animal he returned to the body of his dead comrade, shot one of the hill men, and was again attacked, one bullet tearing away his sleeve and part of his jersey. Perceiving that nothing more could be done for his comrade. Lieutenant Reid rode back to the post, arriving in time to bring out a detachment by which the body of the deceased officer was recovered and saved from further mutilation. He did not suppose for one moment that the noble conduct of Lieutenant Reid had escaped the notice of

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  the military authorities; but he desired that it should be rewarded with some special mark of Her Majesty's favour that would add honour to the young officer's professional career.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY,in reply, said, that the noble Lord had given a substantially accurate account of the circumstances of Lieutenaut Thurlow's death, and of the behaviour of Lieutenant Reid on that occasion. There was no doubt that Lieutenant Reid behaved most admirably, and displayed that cool gallantry and presence of mind which, fortunately, British officers generally exhibited in times of emergency and difficulty. The account of the incident was forwarded by the Commander-in-Chief in India to the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief; but, although mention was made in the despatches of the gallant conduct of Lieutenant Reid, no special recommendation was inserted: and, under those circumstances, the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief did not consider that any particular mark of Her Majesty's favour was called for. Still, there was no doubt that Lieutenant Reid behaved in a most gallant manner, under most trying circumstances.

PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND) ACT—GRANTS IN AID.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIMasked Her Majesty's Government, What grant the Lords of Her Majesty's Treasury would make under the Piers and Harbours (Ireland) Act towards meeting the large contributions from local and other sources already announced? The noble Earl said, that in the year 1846—the year of the great Irish Famine—Parliament granted the sum of £50,000 for fishery piers and harbours in Ireland, and in the following year, 1847, a further grant of 40,000 was made; but in the year 1866 a Bill was passed through Parliament by which there was no charge made upon the Consolidated Fund for the purpose, it being provided that grants towards piers and harbours in Ireland should be placed in future in the Estimates. During the period from 1846 to the present time the sum of £125,000 odd had been granted for piers and harbours in Ireland; and, deducting from that amount the two grants that were made during the years 1846–7, which came to £90,000, there had only
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  been some £35,000 odd expended during that period, which amounted to about £1,100 a-year. It was generally believed that the grants towards Irish piers and harbours had been at the rate of £5,000 a-year; but he hoped he had shown their Lordships that that was an error. Parliament, of late years, had accepted the sum of £5,000 a-year as the fair share of Ireland for grants towards piers and harbours. That sum certainly ought to be a fair proportion for Ireland, taking into consideration the sums granted to England and Scotland. But he wished to remind their Lordships that these were exceptional times; and he hoped he should hear from Her Majesty's Government that the precedents established in 1846 and 1847 might be followed now as generously as they were then. The part of the country in which he resided was, unfortunately, in the scheduled districts—namely, the county of Donegal; and, indeed, he might say the whole of the West Coast of Ireland was a scheduled district. Speaking of the efforts made in his own district towards subscribing the one-fourth required by Parliament before a grant was made, he could only say that they had put their shoulders to the wheel. For one pier in his neighbourhood they had raised the sum of £800, and, to the great joy of their hearts, the Canadian Relief Committee had supplemented that sum by a grant of £500. That; put them in possession of a sum of £1,300 for a fishery pier. The pier had been approved of by the Fishery Inspectors. For another pier, also in his neighbourhood, they had been able to raise, from voluntary contributions, the sum of £1,000; and he might tell their Lordships that these voluntary contributions had been contributed to, not only by landlords who had not received their rents, but also by tenants who had not paid their rents. He would not trouble their Lordships further than to express a hope that the Government would make a grant of, say, £100,000, so as to assist those who were not able to assist themselves.
  EARL SPENCER: In answer to the Question of the noble Earl opposite, I have to say that Her Majesty's Government, in view of the present distressed state of Ireland, have determined to forestall the grant which is usually made towards piers and harbours in Ireland, and it is intended to bring in a Bill to

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  advance £30,000 for that object. The noble Earl said that for the last 30 years the grant for piers had been £1,100 a-year; but I think I may say, without fear of contradiction, that for the last few years the average payments made for piers has been about £5,000 a-year. The grant of £30,000 is intended to meet one which has been made by Canada for the same object. It is the intention of the Government to bring in the Bill as early as possible.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the announcement just made by his noble Friend, for no better employment of public money than this was possible. No doubt, the distress in Ireland would continue for the next few months, and the proposed expenditure would, during that period, be the means of relieving much distress. The construction of piers and harbours was a work in which the Government might most properly assist, and especially so as in some districts the inhabitants had no possibility of gathering a livlihood from the sea without having the assistance of these works. Looking at the generous contributions which had been sent over from the Dominion of Canada, the response which Her Majesty's Government had made was no more than would be dictated by a generous spirit. There was one point which he hoped would not be forgotten in the Bill which the Government had decided upon introducing, and that was the insertion of stringent regulations to insure that when the money had been expended the piers and harbours would not be allowed to get out of repair, as after 1846–7 the works were not attended to, with what result was pretty well known.

INLAND NAVIGATION (IRELAND)— THE NORTHERN SYSTEM.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIM,who mentioned that in some parts of Ireland canals competed very successfully with railways, asked Her Majesty's Government, What steps they intend to take with respect to that part of the Report of the Committee (21st June, 1878) on the Board of Works, Ireland, which has reference to the Northern system of navigation, especially the Ulster Canal? At present, Parliament voted £1,200 annually towards the maintenance of the Ulster Canal, while their receipts were only £30 a-year. This was in itself very
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  unsatisfactory; but, what was worse, the Canal, after all this expenditure, was of no benefit to the district, owing to an insufficient supply of water at the summit level. With a sufficient supply of water the Canal would yield such receipts as would provide for its maintenance.
  EARL SPENCERremarked, that the Report referred to by the noble Earl was presented two years ago, and it did not appear that Her Majesty's late Government took any steps to carry out the recommendations of the Committee. At the present moment there was such a pressure of Business that the Irish Government, to whom the matter belonged, had not had time to turn their attention to the subject. The question was one which had his strong individual sympathy. When in Ireland he looked into it more than once, and he was aware of the difficulties which surrounded it, and of the great desirability of giving some satisfactory solution to it. He could only assure the noble Earl that the Government would carefully consider the recommendations of the Committee, and he hoped that they would shortly arrive at some definite conclusion.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHwas anxious to explain away some misconception which appeared to exist in the mind of the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council. The subject was one which the late Government in Ireland had fully considered, and had determined to inquire fully into the matter; but some difficulty arose as to whether the Commission to be appointed should be a Royal Commission or a Lord Lieutenant's Commission, and the matter was under consideration when the change of Government took place.
  EARL SPENCERsaid, he should have stated that the late Government had come to no decision on the question.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, it was quite true that no decision was arrived at.

  PRAYER BOOK AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Book of Common Prayer —Was presented by The Lord EBURY; read 1a. (No. 75.)

  LOCAL COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the establishment of Local Courts of Bankruptcy in Ireland—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 76.)
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.