Lords Sitting of 19 February 1880

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Seeds (Ireland)*(10); Local Courts of Bankruptcy (Ireland)*(11).
Second Reading—Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Improvement (Scotland) Act (1875) Amendment (8).

RAILWAY BRAKES.—QUESTION.
EARL DE LA WARRasked when the Return which had been promised in regard to Railway Brakes would be presented?
LORD HENNIKER,in reply, said, the Return mentioned by his noble Friend—under the Continuous Brakes Act, 1878—had been prepared for some time; it was in the hands of the printer, and he hoped it would be circulated in the course of a few days.

RUSSIA—THE EXPLOSION AT THE WINTER PALACE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Earl at the head of the Government a Question of which I have given him private Notice. It is, Whether Her Majesty's Government have received any information beyond that which has appeared in the newspapers with regard to the deplorable outrage at St. Petersburg, and the attempted assassination of the Emperor of Russia, which has not only filled all classes in this country with horror, but has sent a thrill throughout the whole civilized world? My Lords, it is impossible to express the indignation which is felt with regard to the repetition of such attempts. If anything could
  902
  strengthen that indignation it would be the utter disregard of human life, even without the circle of the intended victim, exhibited by the persons who perpetrate these outrages. The escape of the Imperial Family must be a cause of general satisfaction; and certainly, as far as we are concerned, it must be an additional satisfaction that a member of our own Royal Family was one of those who were providentially saved from this attempted murder, and that the illustrious Princess is still spared to be a comfort to her distinguished mother. I do not know that I can add anything to what is generally reported, and. to what I readily believe—that Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Edinburgh has been the greatest comfort and solace to her family in this most terrible moment.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, we have received intelligence to-day on this subject; but it throws no light on the origin, or originators, of the terrible crime to which the noble Earl has referred. I am sure your Lordships will fully agree with the noble Earl in what he has said of this outrage. It is, indeed, one of those events which make us doubt of the progress of that civilization of which we are so constantly boasting. War in the home is worse even than civil war. But it must be some satisfaction that, notwithstanding there have been, unfortunately, many victims of this crime, no member of the Imperial Family has sustained injury. The whole country shares in that satisfaction, not diminished when we recollect that among the members of the Imperial Family is a Princess of our own House, one who possesses the respect and affection of this country, who on this occasion has shown those great qualities which those who have the honour of her acquaintance are familiar with, and who has refused to leave at this moment a scene of so much danger and so much domestic suffering.

ARTIZANS AND LABOURERS DWELLINGS IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT (1875) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 8.)
(The Earl Beauchamp.)
ARTIZANS AND LABOURERS DWELLINGS IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT (1875) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 8.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said,

  903
  it gave to Scotland the same augmented power as was given by Act of Parliament last year in connection with the Artizans' Dwellings Bill for England, with which their Lordships were familiar. The principal provisions of this Bill were contained in two clauses, one of which dealt with the difficult matter of the assessment of compensation, whilst the other had reference to the restrictions as to the buildings to be erected on the sites acquired under the Act of 1875. By this Bill the power of the municipal authorities would be enlarged, so as to allow them on certain conditions, and subject to proper safeguards, to take provision for the working classes, by erecting buildings outside the limits of areas cleared under the Act.
  Moved,"That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl Beauchamp.)
  Motion agreed to:Bill read 2aaccordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  PUBLIC HEALTH—TRICHINOSIS— SCHOOL SHIP "CORNWALL."

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    LORD THURLOW,in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is true that an outbreak of "trichinosis" occurred in January last on board the reformatory school ship "Cornwall" lying off Purfleet on the Thames; and if so, how many cases occurred, and. what number have terminated fatally: Further, whether the outbreak has been traced to the use of American or other foreign pork; and, in that case, what precautions, if any, have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to guard against the very serious dangers to which the public are exposed by the importation from abroad of pork infected with this disease? said, the question was one of fact, and was one of equal importance to producers and consumers of meat. It was also one on which much anxiety prevailed. If, therefore, this reported outbreak of trichinosis had occurred, he trusted it might be in the power of Her Majesty's Government to state that they had taken proper and adequate precautions to protect the public, and especially the poorest classes of the public, who were most exposed, from a serious
    904
    danger from which they were practically unable to protect themselves. Last year, when a Question on this subject was asked by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Belmore) the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council replied that cooking afforded a sufficient safeguard; but it was to be feared that was not so, as a higher temperature, and a longer duration of high temperature, were required to kill the trichins than were sufficient for many ordinary culinary purposes. This had, he believed, been amply proved by experiments in Germany and America.
    EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he was not surprised that the noble Lord had called attention to this subject; but all the information he was able to give in the matter was that the Local Government Board had, at the request of the Home Secretary, instituted an inquiry. That inquiry had not as yet terminated, or at least the Report of it had not been delivered. He was unable, therefore, to say more than that the attention of Her Majesty's Government had been directed to the subject. If the noble Lord would repeat his Question later on, he would be happy to afford any information on this subject that it might be then in his power to give.

  RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND).

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREasked Her Majesty's Government, If they will state the number of baronies that have applied for permission to hold extraordinary presentment sessions up to, or as near as possible to, the present date? The noble Earl said, he should not trouble their Lordships with any lengthened remarks on the subject of his Question, as the matter had lately been considered in that House, and the Government had taken measures for the relief of the distressed districts in Ireland. Those measures had given great satisfaction; and, indeed, there was only one particular question upon which any doubt had been expressed by any Member of their Lordships' House. He thought, however, if the information for which he asked their Lordships were supplied, they would be in a better position to deal with the Relief of Distress (Ireland) Bill when it came before them.
    LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEwished to make a few remarks before the Question was answered. It was, no doubt, very difficult to devise measures for proper relief, especially in such times as these of great distress and of great disturbance, and the plan of extraordinary presentment sessions was one which threw great responsibilities on the cesspayers. At the Westport sessions the other day a number of resolutions were discussed and adjourned; but one great resolution was forced on the cesspayers—namely, that they should fix the rate for wages. The rate was fixed at 3s.higher than the ordinary price at this season of the year. Coming from Connaught, and being, unfortunately, old enough to remember the experience of the last Famine, he thought it was only right, at any rate, to take steps, even if they amounted to a confiscation of property, to prevent any person from dying of starvation. But it should be borne in mind that the proposed system of relief works was similar to that adopted during the last Irish Famine, and on that occasion many persons did die of actual starvation. The abuse then was incompetence, and a number of Government officials; now it would be that great jobs were perpetrated in the interests of contractors. Good roads were spoiled, and large sums were expended in opening up new roads which were not required. In respect of such works, how could the Government ascertain what was necessary, what works were desirable, and how they should be carried out? The Government were liberally advancing money to landlords at a very low rate of interest; but the carrying on of useless works at the public expense would be raising a mischievous competition against works of utility being carried on by the landlords with those loans. It would be better to pay the people wages for draining and for sowing crops than for such works as many of those undertaken in 1847. He trusted the Government would re-consider the matter, and, if not too late, introduce some modification of the scheme.
    THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that the remarks made by the noble Lord would have been appropriate on the occasion when the noble Lord opposite (Lord Emly) called attention to the relief works, and a discussion ensued on the observations of that noble
    906
    Lord; but he thought it would be for the convenience of their Lordships if he postponed anything which he might have to say on the topics referred to by the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Browne) till the Bill relating to those relief works came up from the other House, which he hoped would be shortly. In the meanwhile, he must say that he did not agree with many of the points to which the noble Lord alluded, or the conclusions arrived at. With regard to the Question of his noble Friend (the Earl of Donoughmore), he regretted that through inadvertence he was not able to give him an answer in the exact terms of the Question he had put down on the Paper; but he hoped the information he should be able to give him would greatly, if not altogether, satisfy the object he had in view. His noble Friend had talked about baronial or extraordinary presentment sessions having been applied for, and these having been ordered; but he might remind him that it did not at all follow, where even extraordinary presentment sessions had been convened and assembled, that in all these cases they should agree that presentments should be made. On the contrary, up till now very few had been held; and in more than one case the sessions declined to present for the sum of money originally proposed. He put in a list of extraordinary presentment sessions ordered to be convened. The number he had counted up was 84; and he believed, though it was impossible to give the exact figure, that something like 20 had been declined by the Irish Government, for reasons which they thought sufficient to induce them not to agree to the applications. He hoped this information might meet the views of his noble Friend; but he would endeavour, before the Bill came under discussion, to find out the exact number of those that had declined.

    LOCAL COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
    A Bill for the Establishment of Local Courts of Bankruptcy in Ireland—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read la. (No. 11.)
    House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.