HL Deb 15 May 1879 vol 246 cc388-91

House in Committee (according to Order).

Preliminary.

Clause 1 (Short title) agreed to.

Clause 2 (Commencement of Act).

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said, the Government objected to this clause as it stood, inasmuch as it withdrew retreats conducted by philanthropic or charitable associations from the direct control of Parliament, while in seven years it would put an end to private retreats. Now, no one would go to the expense of establishing a private retreat upon such terms; and he proposed to remove the restriction, and mate the Act temporary, so that at the end of a certain time Parliament could re-consider the question, allowing such retreats as it found properly conducted to continue.

Amendment moved— To leave out after "eighty" to end of clause, and add, at end, "and shall be in force until the expiration of seven years from the passing thereof, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament."—(The Lord Steward.)

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

objected to the alteration, on the ground that such a provision would defeat the object of the Bill by preventing people from investing capital in private retreats as a speculation.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK

observed, that public retreats would suffer equally from the proposed Amendment, inasmuch as the public would be unwilling to subscribe for the erection of an institution which was liable to be abolished in seven years.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Interpretation).

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

pointed out that in the definition of "retreats" he wished to draw as wide a distinction as possible between the institutions for habitual drunkards and lunatic asylums.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK moved an Amendment after ("person,") insert ("of sound mind,")—with the object of preventing these retreats being used as lunatic asylums.

LORD SELBORNE

said, that he feared the addition would give rise to fresh difficulties.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

suggested the insertion in the definition of the words ("not being amenable to any jurisdiction in lunacy.")

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY and THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK

accepted the suggestion.

Amendment made accordingly.

Further Amendments made.

Then, on the Motion of the Archbishop of YORK, a further Amendment made by inserting after ("intoxicating liquor,") the words ("at times") dangerous to himself or others.

VISCOUNT GREY DE WILTON moved an Amendment, to include habitual opium eating with habitual excess in partaking of alcoholic liquors.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

suggested that the word "narcotics" should be used instead of opium, as there was great abuse of morphia, chloral, and other narcotics, often through the bad advice of the doctors.

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

replied, that the subject was too important to be introduced without Notice, and that to adopt the suggestion might imperil the Bill.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

also remarked that if they used the word "narcotics" they might include tobacco.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Incorporation of Schedules, with forms and rules therein); and Clause 5 (Local authority and clerk of local authority) agreed to.

Retreats.

Clause 6 (Establishment of retreats).

THE BISHOP OF PETERBOROUGH

objected to the clause on the ground that it would be a convenience to have the power of using private lunatic asylums as retreats.

THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE

supported the clause. He thought it most desirable that the widest possible distinction should be kept up between lunatic asylums and retreats.

On Motion of the Archbishop of YORK, Amendment made at end of clause, add— One, at least, of the persons to whom a licence is granted shall reside in the retreat, and be responsible for its management.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK moved to insert, after Clause 6, new clause—

(To whom licence not to be given.)

"No licence shall be given to any person who is licensed to keep a house for the reception of lunatics without the consent of the Commissioners in Lunacy."

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

thought it would wreck the Bill if these retreats were in the slightest degree to be mixed up with any question of the control of the Lunacy Commissioners. He would consent to the insertion of the clause if the reference to the Commissioners in Lunacy were omitted.

Clause amended accordingly, and agreed to; and added to the Bill.

Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendment.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday the 23rd instant; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 86.)

House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.