Lords Sitting of 2 May 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (Castle Douglas)* (68).
Committee—Report—Poor Law Amendment Act (1876) Amendment (34); Petty Customs (Scotland) Abolition Act Amendment* (33).
Third Reading—County Courts* (62); General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order (Paisley)* (57); General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order (Inverness)* (56), and passed.

SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— THE CONDITIONS OF PEACE— LATEST TELEGRAMS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I beg to ask the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any instructions respecting possible conditions of peace in South Africa have been sent out other than those which have been presented in the last Blue Book? The knowledge that the public have derived from the Parliamentary Papers is that Sir Bartle Frere has stated that no peace is possible until the Queen's supremacy is established from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean; and it has been stated that he is of opinion that his Ultimatum must be

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  adhered to, with certain additions. The Inst despatch of the last Blue Book she wed that the Government had withdrawn from Sir Bartle Frere any discretion in the matter of the conditions of peace. The Secretary of Stale for the Colonies expressed doubt as to some of the provisions of the Ultimatum, and went on to say—
  "When it becomes possible to decide upon the conditions on which peace can be made, the terms dictated to Cetewayo in December last will naturally come under consideration as affording in a greater or less degree a basis for a settlement. But you will understand that the views which I am about to express are necessarily subject to modification by future events, and you will, of course, submit all demands and stipulations for the approval of Her Majesty's Government before peace is concluded. …. Her Majesty's Government, though desirous by every legitimate means in their power to promote the civilization of the Zulus, are not prepared to sanction any further interference with the internal government of the country than may be necessary for securing the peace and safety of the adjacent Colonies, and I will explain to you how far I think the conditions proposed in your messages may become applicable to such a policy. The appointment of duly authorized agents of the Government to reside in the Zulu country would seem desirable in order to protect the rights and interests of British subjects, to keep the High Commissioner informed of any movement on the part of the Natives of a disorderly or warlike character, and to secure the maintenance of a good understanding between the Colonists and the inhabitants of Zululand. It will be essential to insist upon the discontinuance of the present military system, and care should be taken to lay down and provide for the observance of such regulations on this subject as, while leaving to the Zulus the power of protecting themselves against neighbouring Native tribes not under our control, will secure the future peace and safety of our Border. … I trust that this expression of my views on some of the leading questions which may before very long present themselves for consideration may be serviceable for your guidance; but they are questions as to which I should desire to have your further opinion when the time for action has arrived, and it is my wish that, as far as possible, you should avoid taking any decided step or committing yourself to any positive conclusion respecting any of them until you have received instructions from Her Majesty's Government."
  These instructions, I presume, have long since been sent out. Without them, the position of affairs in South Africa might be seriously damaged. It is reported that Cetewayo has offered to make peace; but these offers have been denounced by the local authorities as of an illusory character. Since that time our gallant soldiers have extricated Colonel Pearson from his perilous position and
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  have successfully defended their intrenched camp. It is, therefore, not impossible that Cetewayo may make serious propositions of pence. He may be ready to give in on such terms as may appear reasonable to Her Majesty's Government. But Sir Bartle Frere's hands are tied. He can only promise an answer in seven weeks. Such an answer would only be considered as a trick by the barbarian King; and even if he were to consent to some sort of armistice—a difficult thing in such circumstances—what would not be the delay and the unnecessary expense which would be incurred, and what might not be the risk to the health of our troops, exposed in a state of inaction to risks of strategic, but unhealthy positions, which it would be necessary for them to maintain? I feel sure that such a state of things must have been anticipated by instructions from home; but it would be satisfactory to the House to know it as a fact. I should also be glad to know whether these instructions could, with propriety, be produced?
  EARL CADOGAN: The noble Earl, in putting his Question, has referred to the despatch of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, dated the 20th of March, and he has read a paragraph at the end of it which will form the basis of my answer to the Question, but to which he has attached a significance it will hardly bear. The noble Earl stated that the Government had by this despatch entirely taken away all discretion from Sir Bartle Frere in the matter of the conditions of peace. It is quite true Sir Bartle Frere has been told to avoid, as far as possible, taking any decided step, or committing us to any positive conclusion, in respect of any of these questions, until he has received instructions from Her Majesty's Government; but in the same paragraph it is stated that the Government desires to have a further expression of opinion from Sir Bartle Frere on these matters when the time for action has arrived. The despatch of the 20th of March contains a statement, which the noble Earl read, of the points which had to be considered when the terms of peace came to be arranged; but, as I have said, it concludes with a request that he would send a further opinion on these questions when the time for action had arrived. To this despatch no reply has been received—

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  nor could any have been received; and Her Majesty's Government did not deem it advisable to send any further instructions respecting the possible terms of peace until the reply from Sir Bartle Frere had reached them. I may, however, state that since that date a further despatch has been addressed by the Colonial Secretary to Sir Bartle Frere, dated the 10th of April. It will be laid on the Table in a few days; but I will read a passage from it, which is as follows:—
  "I entertain much hope that the troubles now existing or anticipated may disappear, either independently of, or as a consequence of, that complete settlement of the Zulu difficulty which I join with you in trusting to see speedily effected. But if this expectation should, unfortunately, not be fulfilled, you will be careful to bear in mind that Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to sanction any further extension, without their specific authority, of our responsibilities in South Africa; that their desire is that the military operations now proceeding should be directed to the termination at the earliest moment, consistent with the safety of our Colonies and the honour of our arms, of the Zulu question."
  My Lords, I will also read telegrams which have been received this day at the Colonial Office, and which are as follows:—
  "From Sir Bartle Frere, Pretoria, to Secretary of State, Colonial Office.—April 11.—Arrived here all w*ell last night after friendly visit to Boer camp. I am to meet committee again to-morrow a few miles out of town. With exception of small, very violent minority, the leaders appear generally open to reason. All arrangements of his Excellency the Administrator and of Colonel Rowland, commanding Her Majesty's Forces here, are excellent."
  "Government House, April 15.—All is perfectly quiet in Caffraria and on the Eastern Border generally. In Basutoland disturbances are confined to the tribe of Morosi, whose stronghold is invested by Colonial Force. News from Northern Border also satisfactory. No special news from Natal. Lord Chelmsford and staff at Durban, leaving shortly for Maritzburg."
  THE EARL OF KIMBEELEYsaid, he hoped it would not be considered that the sentences read from the unpublished despatch constituted any answer to the Question of his noble Friend. He would not discuss how far Sir Bartle Frere's hands had been tied; what they wanted to know was what instructions had been, or would be, given as to the terms on which he might conclude peace? He (the Earl of Kimberley) was reluctant to refer to anything personal to himself; but, in the nearly ana-
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  logous case of the Ashantee War, which was not so serious a matter as this, Her Majesty's Government sketched out the terms of peace that might be concluded. 3f course, it was not possible to determine exactly what they should be, and, as must always be the case, a considerable discretion was left to Sir Garnet Wolseley; but, at the same time, the general lines on which he might negotiate were laid down. If he had been left without such instructions, he must have been at a loss to know how to proceed; and Sir Bartle Frere, or any man in his position, could not know what terms of peace he might offer or entertain. Therefore, his noble Friend was justified in expressing some degree of disquiet at the present situation.
  EARL CADOGANsaid, he was sorry his answer was unsatisfactory to the noble Earl; but he could only repeat that the sentences the noble Earl (Earl Granville) had read from the despatch showed clearly the bases of the terms on which Her Majesty's Government were prepared to insist as conditions of peace; and it was impossible for Her Majesty's Government to send further instructions at this moment to Sir Bartle Frere as to the terms of peace. But he could not admit that the instructions contained in the despatch of the 20th of March were merely of a negative character; seeing that in that despatch it was clearly stated that Her Majesty's Government were disposed to insist on the establishment of British Residents in Zululand, and on the modification of the present Zulu military system, and these two points were the most important of the conditions of the Ultimatum sent by Sir Bartle Frere with the Boundary Award.

POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT (1876) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 34.)
(The Lord Norton.)
POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT (1876) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 34.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  On the Question that the Preamble be postponed?
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he despaired of inducing their Lordships to reject the clause which placed members of Friendly Societies in a different position from other members of the community, and he should therefore endeavour to limit its

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  operation by the Amendments he had placed on the Paper.
  Preamble postponed.
  Clause 1 (The provisions of sec. 23 of the Divided Parishes and Poor Law Amendment Act, 1876, not to apply to monies to which a pauper or pauper lunatic may be entitled as a member of a friendly or benefit society).
  EARL FORTESCUEproposed, in line 7, to leave out the words "pauper or"—the effect of which would be to pro-vent the payment of monies due from a Friendly Society to a pauper or a pauper's family. He thought it quite reasonable, and in the interest of the ratepayers themselves, to deal exceptionally with the case of pauper lunatics; but with regard to ordinary paupers, he saw no reason why an exceptional provision should be retained in the Bill in favour of members of Friendly Societies. He was not indifferent, far less hostile, to Friendly Societies. For the last 30 years he had been President of one of the largest of those Societies in the West of England, and he had looked particularly to the soundness of that Society. Friendly Societies throughout the country were increasing both in numbers and soundness; and with increasing numbers and improving soundness they required no exceptional bounty, such as that given by this Bill.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he adhered to the opinion he had expressed last year when he supported an Amendment similar to the present. But while he was opposed to the principle of the Bill, the matter was really not very important; and, looking to the strong feeling which had been expressed throughout the country in favour of the Bill, he should, out of deference to public opinion, support it.
  LORD NORTONsaid, that the Bill simply reverted to the principle in force before 1876. He denied that any exceptional bounty was given to Friendly Societies by this Bill. What it did was to remove a supposed power under the Act of 1876 from the Guardians to attach the allowances due to members of Friendly Societies for the relief given to a pauper. The pauper would still be liable to the Guardians, on any money coming in to him, for the cost of his maintenance, and could be sued by them; but the officers of Friendly Societies com-
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  plained—and he thought with justice—that they should have to pay the money due from them to their members to the Guardians, instead of its being applied directly to the maintenance of the member's family, and recovered by the Guardians from them if necessary. The Amendment, if carried, would be fatal to the Bill, in favour of which no fewer than 1,900 Petitions had been presented, with 12 7,000 signatures.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBUEYopposed the Amendment. When he introduced the Bill last year the feeling of the country in its favour was intense, and it was ten times more so now. It was an honourable feeling on the part of the people, who had a notion that it tended to encourage thrift; and if there was one thing more than another which it was desirable to encourage in the English people, it was the practice of thrift. It would be wise, therefore, to depart from the rigid principles of political economy in this case. The funds in question could not be considered property in any sense. They could not be bequeathed, drawn out, or traded with; it was only in the contingency of sickness that benefit was derived from them. He hoped their Lordships would pass the Bill, and give satisfaction to a large body of people.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the real question was, what was best in the long run for the people themselves? He thought there was some necessity for concession in this case. The feeling was almost universal, and was excessively strong, in favour of the Bill, which had passed in its present shape through the House of Commons. In a matter which did not go to a very great practical extent, he thought their Lordships would be right in rejecting the Amendment.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, that the pauper himself would not be a bit better off for the clause. The only difference would be that the Guardians would have the power of suing the pauper instead of the Friendly Society.
  EARL FORTESCUE, in reply, contended that the Bill contained a new principle which was not in the law previous to 1876.
  Amendment negatived.
  EARL FORTESCUEmoved, to leave out, in line 8, the words "other relative

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  dependent on him." The word "relative" appeared to him to be dangerously wide in its meaning. He would limit the effect of the clause to wife, child, parent, grandfather, or grandmother unable to maintain himself or herself. A great portion of the Petitions in favour of the Bill limited the words to wife or children, father or mother, so that what he proposed went beyond the prayer of those Petitions.
  Amendment moved—
  Line 8, leave out "other relative dependent upon him for maintenance" and insert "child, or parent, grandfather or grandmother, incapable of maintaining himself or herself and previously regularly maintained by such pauper lunatic."—(The Earl Fortescue.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsuggested that "grandchildren" should be inserted, as they were often dependent for support on the persons contemplated by the Bill.
  LORD NORTONthought it would be worth considering to add other relative "legally" dependent.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he would accept the suggestion, provided the words "and previously regularly maintained" were also added.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that an Amendment of that kind would be very little worth, and might cause a great deal of trouble.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, it was reasonable to limit the liability as it was now limited. Certain persons were bound to support certain others, and it was only reasonable to make the law coincident with the obligation. It was desirable to have the law precise, otherwise those who had to administer it would experience great difficulty.
  THE EARL OF DERBYwished to know whether the word "relative" was capable of any legal definition?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, his strong impression was that "relatives" meant, in law, those who were next of kin, and that the term would not apply to relations by marriage.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Preamble agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment, and to be read 3ª on Monday next.

WEST DONEGAL RAILWAY BILL.

  RESOLUTION.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORD moved—
  "That the House of Lords having affirmed the principle that it is expedient to sanction railways upon a narrow gauge in Ireland under certain circumstances, the Board of Trade do report upon the West Donegal Railway Bill with as little delay as possible."
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEthought the Motion would lead to delay, and was too wide to lead to any practical advantage.
  LORD CARLINGFORDsupported the Motion, because he thought the attention of the Board of Trade ought to be called to the terms of the Resolution recently adopted by that House.
  After a brief conversation, which was inaudible—
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, it would, perhaps, be sufficient if the attention of the Board of Trade were called to the Resolution passed by their Lordships' House on the 24th of April in respect to Irish railways. He, therefore, suggested an alteration in the terms of the present Motion, so as to invite the Board of Trade to have regard in their Report to the Resolution above mentioned.
  Amendment made accordingly.
  Motion, as amended, agreed to.
  Ordered, That the House of Lords having by resolution of the 24th of April last affirmed the principle that it is expedient to sanction railways upon a narrow gauge in Ireland under certain circumstances, the Board of Trade do report upon the West Donegal Railway Bill with as little delay as possible, having regard to that resolution.—(The Viscount Lifford.)
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.