Lords Sitting of 21 March 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading— Disqualification by Medical Relief (6).
Royal Assent—Mutiny Act (Temporary) Continuance [42 Vict. c. 4]; Marine Mutiny Act (Temporary) Continuance [42 Vict. c. 5].

SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— SIR BARTLE FRERE.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE—To move to resolve, That this House, while willing to support Her Majesty's Government in all necessary measures for defending the

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  possessions of Her Majesty in South Africa, regrets that the ultimatum which was calculated to produce immediate war should have been presented to the Zulu king without authority from the responsible advisers of the Crown, and that an offensive war should have been commenced without imperative and pressing necessity or adequate preparation.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: I beg to give Notice that, when the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) brings forward his Motion with reference to the Zulu War on Tuesday next, I shall move the Previous Question.

SPAIN—SLAVERY IN CUBA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I am desirous of putting a Question to the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) on a subject which occupied my attention while I was in Office, and which I have no doubt is now occupying his—I mean the subject of slavery in Cuba. As I understand the matter, the Spanish Government gave this Government the assurance that it was only the existence of the insurrection in that island that prevented them from taking steps to put an end to slavery in that territory. That assurance, I believe, was of the most specific character. I am quite aware that great consideration is required in approaching this subject, and I do not desire to press the noble Marquess to enter into details as to any steps he may have taken in the matter — I shall be perfectly satisfied to know that the question has not been overlooked by Her Majesty's Government, and that they have taken some steps to appeal to the Spanish Government to do that which not only their obligations require them to do, but which is called for in the interests of humanity.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I believe that what the noble Earl has said in the latter portion of his observations is perfectly true—that great consideration must be given to the manner in which this question is approached. We have not, as in some other parts of the world, to deal with a people who are theoretically and practically in favour of slavery, but with a people who are in principle as much opposed to it as ourselves; but they have a heritage of difficulties. We must remember that it is a
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  matter entirely of internal regulation, and that, but for the promises they have volunteered, we should have no right to mention the subject. We must, therefore, approach them with every consideration due to the feelings of a people yielding to none in their sensitiveness to national honour. We are as anxious as any of our predecessors that this great object should be achieved. We have very recently been in communication with Her Majesty's Representative at Madrid upon the subject; but the ordinary difficulty of giving information with respect to the intentions of a foreign Government, where that foreign Government has not officially declared them, is aggravated in the present case by the fact that there has been a change of Government in Spain which is not yet completed, and that the Prime Minister is, I believe, at this moment, on his way from Paris to Madrid. It is, therefore, naturally impossible for me to give any intelligence to the House upon this most important question. I can only say that it has reached me that the present Prime Minister is more anxious even than any of his predecessors to adopt a course of conduct in conformity with the belief of all civilized nations on this matter; and I hope that when the present difficulties attending the change of Government have passed by, he will call to mind the assurances that have been given in the past by Spanish Governments, and bring Spain into a line with all other European countries upon this most important subject.

CREMATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ONSLOWrose to call attention to the Association called "The Cremation Society of England," and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether the practice of cremation is in accordance with the laws of this country; and, if so, whether they intend taking any steps to regulate the disposal of dead bodies at the crematorium now in course of construction by the Society at Woking? The noble Earl said, this was a question that involved considerable danger to the public at large. The subject of cremation had been before the public for some time; but it was now, he thought, for the first time actually assuming a tangible shape, which was evidenced by a build-

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  ing now in course of erection at Woking —a building called a crematorium, the object of which was the destroying of the bodies of the dead by fire. The chimney, which was intended to conduct the gaseous products of cremation off was of considerable height, was commenced since the 21st of February last, and efforts were being made to press its construction forward with all possible speed. The Cremation Society was founded in 1874, and its last Report, which was published in 1877, stated that the Council was made up of noblemen and eminent professional men well known in society. He had failed to discover the names of these noblemen and eminent scientific gentlemen; but if any of their Lordships were members of that Council, he had no doubt they would come forward and claim their share of responsibility in this matter. The only name that appeared in the Report was that of Mr. Eassie, the secretary—a gentleman whose name was well known in connection with sanitary matters. The Society alleged that they had taken eminent legal advice, which satisfied them that the process of cremation was legal, and justified them in asking for subscriptions from the public. He happened to have a copy of the legal opinion referred to, which was signed by Dr. Tristram and agreed to by Mr. Meadows White. These learned persons said, among other things, that besides not having been recognized by law, the burning of the dead would, in many points, be in contravention of the Burial Acts. He thought the House would agree with him that this was hardly an opinion in favour of the process supported by the Society. A deputation had waited on the Home Secretary in connection with this subject some time ago, and he had no doubt the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown had been taken on the question. He understood that the Society had first endeavoured to obtain land in the Great Northern Cemetery for the erection of a crematorium; but that being consecrated ground the sanction of the Bishop of Rochester had to be obtained. The reply of the Bishop was that he had no power to sanction such a mode of disposing of the dead. Failing in this, the Society had gone to Woking, where they had purchased ground which was not in the same relation to ecclesiastical authority,
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  and on this they were erecting buildings, which would speedily be completed. Apart from the nuisance that might be caused to persons in the neighbourhood by the proceedings of this Society, a question of great public importance was involved; because, after the body had been consumed by fire, it was impossible by any posthumous inquiry to ascertain what might have been the cause of death. It had been proposed that that portion of the body which was most liable to be poisoned should be separated and preserved under seal in a jar; but this safeguard would be inadequate, for there were poisons which permeated the entire body; and poisoning was not the only kind, of death by violence. Moreover, the existing statistical arrangements of the country were intimately connected with the process of interment, and any disarrangement of them would cause great inconvenience. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would take steps to test the legality of the Cremation Society's proceedings upon the first occasion that offered, and to surround them, if they proved to be legal, with the same precautions as were adopted in the case of interment.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he thought the noble Earl, in calling attention to this question, had discharged a public duty, because the practice to which he had referred was one which ought not to be adopted without full consideration, and without receiving due sanction. In reply to the noble Earl, he thought the more convenient course would be to read to the House a letter addressed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the Secretary of the Cremation Society on the 21st February last, in answer to a communication from that Society. The letter had been laid before the other House. In that reply, the Secretary of State said that, without entering into the question of legality, or whether or not the system of cremation was in accordance with the public feeling, or with respect due to the dead, he must point out that the system of cremation was entirely novel in this country, and that, whether or not the law forbade it altogether, public interest required that it should not be adopted until many matters of great social importance had been duly considered and provided for. The Secretary of State went on to say,

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  "Burial can be followed by exhumation, but the process of cremation is final; the result of the practice would therefore be that it would tend, in cases where death had been occasioned by violence or poison, to defeat the ends of justice. There would no longer be an opportunity for that examination, which in so many cases has led to the detection and punishment of crime. The practice of ordinary burial has become interwoven with the legislative arrangements of the country, and is closely connected with various safeguards respecting death, with the statistics of death, and with the evidence of death."
  The conclusion arrived at by the Secretary of State was that he could not acquiesce in the continuance of the undertaking of the Society to carry out the practice of cremation, either at their works now in progress at Woking or elsewhere in this country, until Parliament had authorized such a practice by either a special or a general Act, and that if the undertaking was persisted in, it would be his duty either to test its legality in a Court of Law, or to apply to Parliament for an Act to prohibit it until Parliament had had an opportunity of considering the whole subject. Within the last few days the members of the Cremation Society had had an interview with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and had promised that they would not proceed further with the works until Parliament had consulted on the matter.
  LORD SELBORNEasked, Whether the Government intended to introduce a Burials Bill in the course of the present Session?

CYPRUS—THE HARBOUR OF FAMAGOUSTA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETrose to call attention to the Report on Fama-gousta Harbour, and to inquire, Whether it is the intention of the Government to undertake the works necessary for rendering Famagousta habitable? The noble Duke said: My Lords, I do not propose to discuss any points alien to my present purpose, or to discuss the policy of Her Majesty's Government in taking possession of Cyprus; but will confine my observations to the Reports which have been laid upon the Table of the House of the Captain of the Minotaur and the Hydrographer of the Admiralty. The latter has prepared a very careful Report on the subject, and has had the advantage of visiting the Island in com-
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  pany with the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for War —besides having a complete knowledge of the surveys previously made. His information, therefore, may be taken as perfectly complete. Now, according to the Report of the Hydrographer, the harbours, or rather the anchorages, of Limasol and Larnaca were not found to be altogether suitable for vessels of war, and that the most convenient place was the harbour of Famagousta, of which, accordingly, the Hydrographer made a detailed Report. As regards the town of Famagousta, I must say the Report cannot be said to be very satisfactory. The town is occupied by about 500 people, 300 of whom are Turks, and the remainder Greeks; and the Hydrographer reports that all the Turks had had fever, and half of them ophthalmia as well, while many of the others had cataract and incipient blindness. That is not a very favourable account of the town. The Hydrographer also gives an account how this state of things may have arisen. He says that the various maladies may, perhaps, have arisen from imperfect drainage. The Turks, trusting to Providence, have given up the idea of draining the place; all the drains are choked, and the town is full of cesspools, which, from the nature of the soil, percolate in all directions, through the soil on which the town is built. If the drainage is unsatisfactory and imperfect, much more so is the supply of water, which is brought to the town in a conduit passing through several burial grounds; besides which, whenever the people want to wash their clothes, they simply take up a stone from the conduit and set to work. That is not a condition of things favourable to the health of the town. The Hydrographer says that he is not aware whether the bad health of the population is due to the defective water supply, and want of drainage, or to the foul emanations from the soil; but it is apparently attributable to all three causes. When he came to examine the harbour, he found that the soil consisted of the sewage of centuries, and that its character was so noxious that they were unwilling to dredge up any of it. Then, I observe that Captain Lawson says it will be very easy to dredge the harbour and fill up the lagoon; but I would suggest that the operation of filling up a lagoon with

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  sewage would have very unwholesome results, and I trust that it will not be attempted. My Questions, however, relate to the more important recommendations of the Hydrographer—that the town should be properly drained, and that its water supply should be conveyed in proper pipes. He also recommends great works for the formation of a harbour, and the erection, as far as the outside of the rocks, of about a mile of breakwater. I have no doubt that if that work is carried out efficiently the harbour will be a very fine one, and equal even to that of Malta; but the first thing is to make the town habitable. At present, the Hydrographer says it is pestilential, and he strongly urges that something should be done. What I wish to know is, whether the Government are prepared to give effect to his recommendations, and, if so, in what way they will do so? I am aware that there is in Cyprus the system of enforced labour; but I do not know whether it is a wise method of conciliating the inhabitants, and, of course, it would require constant supervision, in order that no injustice may be done. Now, who will superintend that enforced labour? The noble Marquess, I believe, superintends generally the Island of Cyprus, and, in fact, everything from China to Peru; but will he supervise the special works undertaken in the Island? Still, supposing that you improve this town, and make it habitable, whose property is it? If we want to build military and naval storehouses, on whose land are they to be built—on our own, or on land that we shall have to buy? In short, whose land are we going to improve, and will anyone reap that unearned increment of value of which Mr. Mill used to speak? Of course, too, we shall have to build new fortifications, as the existing ones would not be at all suitable, in these days, for our purpose; and, for that purpose, we shall have to acquire property beyond the boundaries of the town. Now, is that land available, and have we the power of acquiring it? Another point that must be considered is the expense—there would be expenses connected with the harbour, the expenses connected with the tower, the expense of lighting, and, he supposed, the expense of the fortifications—all these would have to be considered. Then, how are all these works to be made—by compul-
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  sory labour, or in what other way? And how are they to be paid for—from the Revenues of the Island, or from the Imperial Exchequer, as works of Imperial necessity? I beg to ask, Whether it is the intention of the Government to undertake the works necessary for rendering Famagousta habitable?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the noble Duke has brought before our notice a subject in which both he and the Government are alike deeply interested. He has, however, somewhat enlarged on the entertainment he promised, by introducing several subjects which are not involved in the Notice he placed on the Paper. The subject of Famagousta harbour hardly includes the three questions of compulsory labour, the tenure by which we hold the Island, and the point whether or not I am the proper person to look after it. Now, as these were, so to speak, the garnishes of the dish provided for us, I will endeavour to dispose of them first. As to the question of compulsory labour, I am afraid we do not get labour in Cyprus on different terms from those anywhere else. We have to pay for any labour we employ. What has been done with regard to Cyprus is that, for works of public utility, a required poll-tax of not very great amount is imposed, sometimes realizing between 10 s. and 15 s. a-year—and in those cases in which a man cannot pay that amount, he must work it out, receiving 1s. a-day for his labour. I do not think that fairly comes under the head of compulsory labour; but, be that as it may, all that is intended to be done is to modify, in a more indulgent sense, the law which already existed in the Island, and what has been a custom in Cyprus from time immemorial. I now pass to another system of forced labour—namely, that which is imposed upon the Foreign Office in respect to this Island; and I wish we could escape it as easily as the inhabitants of Cyprus escape making roads. I think, however, the noble Duke will bear me out when I say that there is no part of the business of the country more difficult to conduct, with anything approaching to satisfaction, than that which has to pass through more than one or two Departments; and it seems to me that, under all the circumstances of the case, as there are still many questions upon which the Island must be

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  dealt with, in the Foreign Office, it is more convenient that the business connected with Cyprus should be transacted there entirely. The noble Duke knows how difficult it is to conduct the Public Business with despatch, where more than one Office has been brought into requisition; and my opinion is that, as a matter of mere internal convenience, and from no passion for work on my part, it is better that the course which we have adopted should be continued. As to the tenure of Cyprus, I do not quite see what the tenure by which we hold Cyprus has to do with the improvements the noble Duke has in contemplation. As to the Crown lands, all the Crown lands belong to the Queen, and the Agreement on the subject will shortly be laid on your Lordship's Table. Compensation will, of course, be given in the case in which lands belonging to individuals are taken for the Public Service; but lands belonging to the Crown will be made use of for that service in the same way as Crown lands are used in this country. Having referred to these matters, I will now turn to the Question included in the Notice of the noble Duke. I must say I am by no means surprised that he has called your Lordship's attention to the Report, because it deals with a matter which is of very great interest, as affecting the position of England on the South-East coast of the Mediterranean. The harbour of Famagousta has, undoubtedly, been selected, and such improvements are to be made in it as may be required to make it fit for the purposes of a great Power. I do not believe the expenditure would be a large expenditure; but, whatever it may be, of course, if Famagousta is to be made a harbour for Imperial purposes, the necessary expenditure ought to be borne out of Imperial funds. When the harbour is completed, it will, I believe, be a considerably finer harbour than that of Malta; for, if I recollect rightly, whereas the harbour of Malta can only contain nine large ships, three-quarters of a cable's length apart, that of Famagousta will be capable of containing 14 ships a cable's length apart. The position, besides, is one of very great importance in that part of the world, and is not to be overrated in a stragetical point of view. But, in reference to the expenditure, it happens that the Imperial Government has a good deal to do with its money at
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  present; and they may, therefore, be willing to put off this particular work until they may have less expense upon their hands. Before proceeding with the construction of the harbour works, some steps must be taken towards making the place more healthy. That is one of the reasons why it seems to me to be advisable that we should not move too hastily in the matter. It has been popularly assumed that what you have to meet is the malaria in Cyprus, and it is very difficult, from the experience of last year, to come to any satisfactory conclusion on the subject; because inquiry has, undoubtedly, resulted in the establishment of the fact that throughout the whole coast of the Mediterranean there was a wonderful wave of fever, for which there is no parallel in ordinary years. Ninety per cent of the inhabitants of Tripoli have, it appears, been stricken down by fever; and in Malta, I am informed, it affected a larger portion of the population than had ever been known before. Those who were attacked in Malta were, in proportion to the number of inhabitants, greater in number than in Cyprus; and it bore the same character — sending very large numbers to the hospitals, but killing very few. It is not, therefore, easy to draw any very certain or accurate conclusions from the information which we possess. In my opinion, the unhealthiness of Famagousta is in a great measure to be attributed to the detestable sanitary arrangements. There are a series of cesspools side by side, separated only by a porous soil from the wells which the people use, and there is a constant percolation to some extent between the wells and the cesspools. The filthy habits of the people have also a good deal to answer for; but their more recent progress in cleanliness has not been without inconvenience. So long as the people did not wash their clothes at all the aqueducts at least were pure; but when they took to washing their clothes in the aqueduct the water became infected. There the inhabitants have the custom of washing their clothes in the aqueduct. The Government are trying to introduce what is known as the dry-earth system. I will not annoy your Lordships' ears by describing the process in detail; but it seems to be the most efficient way of disposing of this drainage. Sanitary work is, therefore, the

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  first thing necessary; but there is considerable doubt whether the sanitary works could be carried out whilst 300 inhabitants are living in the place, or whether they should not be moved as soon as sufficient accommodation can be found. It would probably be found much easier to restore Famagousta to healthiness if the inhabitants went than if they remained. There is 15 feet in depth of sewage at the bottom of the harbour, and it frequently sends up noxious gases; so that, even if we could remove that deposit, the doing of it would not at the time conduce to the health of the inhabitants. The drainage of the lagoons would possibly produce more fever than already existed there, though, no doubt, it would ultimately prove of great advantage. There is, however, another remedy to which the Government of Cyprus is turning its attention. There is the historical fact that Cyprus formerly had a large population, and that it was remarkable for the density and extent of the forests that it contained. It is the removal of these forests that has affected the healthiness of Cyprus, and one of the first steps of the Government was to save the forests that remained and to renew those that had been destroyed. The Indian Government have considerable experience in this kind of work, and an Indian official has been sent for to carry out what is to be done, and has sent a valuable Report, which I hope shortly to lay before your Lordships. But all these things are questions of money. For matters of local importance, Cyprus will have to trust to its own revenue—a revenue of which about one-fifth is applicable to public works. But there are matters of more pressing importance even than sanitary works. A road to Nicosia and other places is the most pressing thing. Then the gaols are altogether inadequate to English notions of what prisons should be. Then there are post-houses, as to which it was reported that the beams are absolutely separated from the walls, and it is quite problematical when the roofs will come down. There are, therefore, very pressing demands upon the immediate surplus to be disposed of, and possibly it will not be until the next financial year that the drainage and sanitary matters can be entertained in any effective way. I chiefly wish to dispel the idea that this subject is one that
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  has been neglected or that the importance of it is underrated. The Government think that the harbour of Famagousta is one of great importance, and that every means to adapt it to our convenience should be used as quickly as is consistent with other circumstances. The work, however, is not pressing in point of time. The Treaty of Berlin, we hope, will establish a permanent peace; but then we know that noble Lords opposite once thought that the Treaty of Paris would do the same; and when such men as Lord Palmerston were deceived, we cannot conceal from ourselves the fact that the time may arrive when England will have to look actively after her interests in that part of the world, and when she would have to give forcible effect to her policy. I hope that time is far distant, and therefore we do not wish to incur any financial extravagance for the purpose of accomplishing works of this kind with unnecessary speed. We are anxious, with respect to Cyprus, to take larger and more extended views, and, as far as it may be given to us to carry them out, the noble Duke may feel assured that that will be done.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I cannot think the answer of the noble Marquess is satisfactory—indeed, it appears to me to be insufficient. I think one point on which it is desirable some information should be given by Her Majesty's Government is the ground on which Cyprus was confided to the Foreign Office. It is also desirable to know to what Department of the Foreign Office it is confided. I quite acquit the noble Marquess of any wish to monopolize the administration of Cyprus; but, on the other hand, the reasons that he gave why its administration is confided to the Foreign Office appear to me insufficient. The noble Marquess said that in Cyprus foreigners would have to be dealt with; but do not both the Colonial Office and the India Office constantly deal with foreign questions—with slavery and fishery questions? If the argument of the noble Marquess were worth anything, it would follow that it was wrong to have put the Ionian Islands under the management of the Colonial Office. Why the administration of Cyprus should not be confided to an Office that thoroughly understands the business I cannot see. It is said that we are afraid to under-

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  take the harbour works, lest fever should result from stirring the sewage; but this is hardly a satisfactory reason. I am glad to find that there has been no compulsory labour in the Island; but as to sanitary matters, I must say that in all the accounts that have come before me, it is difficult to conceive anything so unsatisfactory as the statement that has been made in regard to them. I cannot conceive anything more cruel than to compel persons to go on living in such a pestilential hole as Famagousta. We were told that the administration of Cyprus would not cost us anything, and that its revenues would be sufficient; but if we are to undertake Imperial works in that Island, surely that will cost us money. We were told that this year we should have a sufficient harbour for commerce; but it would seem, from the statement of the noble Marquess, that we may have to wait 15 or 20 years before the harbour is begun. While, however, money is to be spent here, the requirements of Malta are starved, and Dover harbour cannot, for reasons of economy, be carried out. The object of Imperial expenditure is to be a pestilential Island like Cyprus, whilst there is no money to spare for spending upon Imperial interests at home in our own Island. In the case of Dover harbour, a Report was presented some years ago, by which it appeared that naval and military authorities recommended in the strongest way that works should be constructed in that harbour. The Report was adopted, and a Bill on the subject was introduced in the House of Commons, the Select Committee to which it was referred reported in its favour; and then at last we were told by the Prime Minister that, though the works referred to were most desirable, at present, for reasons of economy, they could not be undertaken. I hope that the matter will be more fully gone into by the Government before any expenses are incurred.

DISQUALIFICATION BY MEDICAL RELIEF BILL—(No. 6.)
(The Lord Aberdare.)
DISQUALIFICATION BY MEDICAL RELIEF BILL—(No. 6.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD ABERDARE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time,
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  said, it had already received the sanction of the other House. The Bill was a short one—of a single clause—and its provisions were clear. At present persons in receipt of medical relief were disqualified from voting; but it was clearly important that, in cases of infectious disease, no obstacle should be I placed in the way of a man removing from a crowded neighbourhood in which he might reside, in order to receive the medical attendance of which he stood in need. The Bill, therefore, provided that no man should be disqualified for being on the register of Parliamentary or municipal electors, by reason of himself, or any of his family, having received medical treatment or relief for any infectious disease as an in-patient of any public hospital, infirmary, or other sanitary institution; but at present, if that were done, the man forfeited his right to vote. If the Government would introduce a Bill, he would be very glad; in the meantime, he hoped this Bill would pass through its second reading, which he now begged to move.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord Aberdare.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND and GORDONsaid, it was quite true this Bill was a short one—it consisted of one clause of 10 lines; but it was full of anomalies and mistakes, as he should take the opportunity of showing. He doubted very much whether this measure would ever have come out of the other House had it not been for the severe indisposition of the President of the Local Government Board, who was incapacitated from attending while the Bill was passing in the House of Commons. The Bill passed through that House somewhat hastily in the short Session before Christmas, when everybody's attention was called to the great matters then under discussion relating to the Afghan War. The Bill having passed in that manner, a Motion for its re-commitment was made by the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Pell); but it was not successful. The noble Lord (Lord Aberdare), in moving the second reading of the Bill, had very wisely touched lightly on the slight infringement which he said the Bill would make on our electoral law. That was one of the main objections of the Government to this Bill—that it did touch on the electoral law, and in no slight manner. It had

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  been the custom in this country for years past that all persons who were in receipt of relief given out of the poor rates should be disqualified from voting; that all persons receiving either medical relief or other relief should be debarred from the exercise of the franchise. That was the principle of the electoral law and the Poor Laws, and as such he confessed he was not prepared, at the present moment, to agree to any infringement of it. The only departure from that law was in the case of the Irish Poor Law; and in the Act 25 & 26 Vict., c. 83, sec. 6, passed in 1862, it was provided that—
  "Every poor person admitted into the fever hospital or infirmary of a workhouse, who shall on admission claim to repay the entire cost of his or her maintenance therein, according to the full average cost thereof, as hereinbefore stated, and every poor person admitted into such fever hospital or infirmary on whoso behalf the person liable by law to maintain such poor person shall claim to repay the entire cost of such maintenance therein, as aforesaid … and the person so relieved and the person so claiming shall not, after payment of the said charges of maintenance, be subject to any disfranchisement or disability as persons having received relief from the poor rates."
  This law applied to Ireland at the present moment; and so far as that departure from the principle of the electoral law was concerned, he did not see any objection to it. And here he would point out that this Bill applied to Ireland— Ireland was not excluded from the operation of the Bill. Therefore, with this measure, in one clause it was proposed to practically override the Act 25 & 26 Vict., which he had quoted. Again, supposing the noble Lord was successful in carrying this Bill into law in its present shape, it would fail to achieve the object in view. It was proposed that no person should be disqualified from voting by having received medical treatment or relief. Now, medical treatment or relief must mean medical treatment and medical relief. But when a person entered a hospital there must be what was called in-maintenance—a term familiar to all Poor Law Guardians—and there was no provision for the in-maintenance in the hospitals in this Bill; and, therefore, a person might receive medical treatment and relief in the hospital, and you would say that he would not be disqualified; but still the person would require maintenance, and he would be a pauper re-
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  ceiving relief out of the rates. If the Bill, then, were carried in its present form, it would not meet the object the noble Lord had in view. There was no matter about which there was so clear and distinct a line drawn as in medical relief as distinguished from other relief. If the Bill passed in its present form, and only dealt with medical relief pure and simple, leaving untouched the question of in-maintenance, it could not be regarded as satisfactory. He was astonished to bear what fell from the noble Lord on the subject of sanitary hospitals, or, rather, hospitals established by sanitary authorities; because it ought to be known that the occupants of such hospitals were not disqualified from voting in the existing state of the law. The only persons so disqualified were those to whom relief was administered from the poor rates by officials legally appointed for the purpose, and the law did not apply to the inmates of these sanitary hospitals. He, therefore, thought it would be dangerous to retain the word "sanitary" in the clause referring to this branch of the subject. And there were several other respects in which the wording of the Bill might be altered with advantage. He did not object to the principle of the Bill, but should ask leave to introduce Amendments in it when it reached the Committee stage, in order that it might be made to include, not only medical relief, but the cost of in-maintenance; that it might follow the lines of the Irish Bill of 1862; and that persons admitted to hospitals on terms similar to those of that Bill should be similarly treated. He saw no reason why the inmates of such hospitals, if they chose to pay for their maintenance while under treatment, should be disqualified from voting. He would prepare Amendments in the spirit of the remarks he had made, and move them in Committee.
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, he was not responsible for the language of the Bill. He should be glad to give his consideration to any Amendments the noble Duke should propose.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.