Lords Sitting of 7 March 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Rivers Conservancy (20).
Third Reading—Assizes* (17), and passed.

BRITISH BURMAH.—QUESTION.
EARL GRANVILLE: I beg to ask the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for India, Whether he has any information with regard to regiments said to have been sent to Burmah?
VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: My Lords, yesterday I received a telegram from the Viceroy, stating that troops had been despatched to British Burmah—not in consequence of anything that had happened at Burmah, but merely as a precautionary measure recommended by the Resident. I will read the telegram to your Lordships —
"In compliance with a strong recommendation of the Chief Comissioner of Rangoon and the Resident at Mandalay, measures have been taken to reinforce the garrison of British Burmah by three regiments—namely, two of Native infantry and one of British."
That is all the information I have received; but I have telegraphed for further information.

STREET ACCIDENTS.

  ADDRESS FOR A RETURN.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN moved—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Tabular statement by months of the accidents which have occurred in the streets of the Metropolis and its suburbs referable to the passage of vehicles, bicycles, or horsemen from 1st January 1878 to 31st January 1879, showing the circumstances under which each accident has occurred, its issues, and results."
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, no one would question the importance of doing all that was possible for the preservation of life in the streets of the Metropolis; but most of the information which was asked for by the noble Viscount was already contained substantially in the Reports of the Commissioners of Police. The Report for the year ending December 31 had not yet been presented. He had no objection that the Report should show month by month the accidents that had occurred. He was afraid it was impossible to give more information about the issue and results of accidents than was already contained in the Reports.
  Motion agreed to.

RIVERS CONSERVANCY BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of presenting a Bill to make provision for the Conservancy of Rivers. But before I enter in detail upon the provisions of the measure, I think it may be useful if I glance shortly at previous legislation on the subject. I find legislation on this subject dates as far back as the reign of Henry III., when the matter was under the consideration of the Legislature, and again in the reigns of Henry IV., Henry V., and Edward IV.; and that during that time and the reign of Henry VIII. inclusive, there were several Acts relating to it. The most important of those Acts was the Statute of Sewers, passed in the reign of Henry VIII. The Statute set forth that, in consequence of the damage done by floods, Commissioners ought to be appointed; and accordingly certain Commissioners, entitled Commissioners of Sewers, were appointed by the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Treasurer, and two Chief Justices. These Commissioners had powers of a most extensive character—they could take timber and other materials they required at their own price, they could impress into their service men and horses, they could fix whatever assessments they pleased—and also—a power which, in these days at least, would be liable to very considerable abuse—they audited their own accounts. They could, moreover, make their own regulations, and inflict punishment for their infraction. That Statute is still in force, and under it, I believe, some 30 Commissions are in existence at the present time. It is not uninteresting to observe that so long ago as 300 years it was found necessary to deal with this subject by a large and comprehensive measure, and that a similar mode is found to be equally expedient now. The Act of Henry VIII. has been amended by Acts passed in the reigns of Queen Anne, William IV., and Her present Majesty—Acts which in some respects augmented rather than restricted the powers of the Commissioners, though in other respects those powers have been restricted to a certain extent. For example, ornamental lands were not to be taken; and

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  no new works were to be undertaken I by the Commissioners without the consent of the owners of three-fourths in value of the land to be dealt with. In 1861 the Land Drainage Act was passed. This Act placed positive restrictions on the dealings of the Commissioners, for it made their acts subject to the Inclosure Commission, and provided that no works exceeding £1,000 in value should be undertaken without the consent of the owners of half the area to be dealt with. Where property rights were interfered with, the Act gave the parties the power of appeal. These Public Acts of which I have spoken have been supplemented by 2,000 or 3,000 Local Acts, dealing with canals and other matters affecting inland navigation. These Local Acts have interfered very materially with the action of the Commissioners under the Act of Henry VIII. The Commissioners have no sufficient control over the riparian proprietors in respect of the duties devolving upon them; and the existence in many cases of two different Commissions dealing with parts of the same river has been a source of much difficulty. There are also some 300 Private Acts in existence dealing with varied interests. In these circumstances, it is not surprising to find the channels of rivers obstructed and blocked up, and low lands liable to frequent inundations. Such was the state of things up to 1867. Your Lordships will recollect that in the autumn of 1876 there were extensive floods in various parts of the country. I have heard of one farmer who lost sight of his land for several months. In 1877, at the instance of Her Majesty's Government, a Select Committee of your Lordships' House was appointed to inquire into—
  "The operation of existing Statutes in regard to the formation of and proceedings by Commissioners of Sewers, and Conservancy, Drainage, and Navigation Boards; to consider by what means such bodies may be more conveniently and inexpensively constituted, their procedure improved, and their powers enlarged, so as to provide more efficiently for storage of water, the prevention of floods, and the discharge of other functions appertaining to such boards."
  The Committee sat and took a great deal of evidence given by witnesses from all parts of the country. I will venture to quote from the evidence of Mr. Abernethy, a civil engineer of
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  great experience, who was formerly one of the Commissioners for the regulation of the Danube. He said—
  "The cause of the recent floods in the Ouse in the first place is the defective state of the outlets—that is, the Hundred Foot River and the old Bedford River, and what is termed the wash-lands lying between these two rivers, originally designed as a spillwater or flood-channel; the general deterioration of the river-bed above Earith, which has been obstructed by numerous shoals and an enormous growth of weeds which impede the current, and the utter want of proper subsidiary channels for carrying off the flood-waters."
  To the same effect is the evidence of other witnesses; and it was established to the satisfaction of the Committee that—
  "If the channels and outfalls of rivers be properly cared for, any water flowing into these rivers from the catchment basins of which they are the outlets may reasonably be expected to be discharged by them in sufficient time to render unlikely any serious damage to agricultural lands by floods."
  For the purpose of remedying the anomalies and defects referred to, and providing an available system for the conservancy of rivers in future, the Committee, after careful consideration of the whole subject, made various recommendations, of which the following are the chief:—
  "1, That the catchment area of each river should, as far as practicable, be placed under a single body of conservators; 2, that, although means should be taken to insure the appointment of a Conservancy Board for each catchment basin, it should, in the first instance, result from the application of persons interested in the district; 3, that the Conservators should be enabled to remove obstructions and to improve outfalls; to deepen and dredge the beds of rivers, with power to deal with banks and bridges, and to acquire lands compulsorily for that purpose when necessary; 4, that they should also be empowered to enforce the provisions of the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act; 3, with respect to the mode of raising funds for executing the powers conferred upon the Conservators, the Committee recommended that a rate should be levied over the whole watershed, flood-lands being rated at a higher amount than up-lands, and other graduations of exceptions being made to meet particular cases."
  The Committee were strongly of opinion also that towns and houses should contribute to the rates in question. The rating question was a very difficult one, and with respect to the mode of setting up Conservancy Boards it must be borne

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  in mind that the circumstances of no two watersheds are alike. Of the 210 rivers in England and Wales, there are — having catchment basins of 1,000 square miles and upwards, 11; having catchment basins of 500 to 1,000 square miles, 14; having catchment basins of 100 to 500 square miles, 59; having catchment basins of 50 to 100 square miles, 24; having catchment basins of 10 to 50 square miles, 102; total, 210. The length of these rivers, including tributaries, varies from 688 miles to two miles. The inconvenience of the present system was so great that Her Majesty's Government have thought it necessary to propose legislation; and with that view we have prepared the Bill which I am now about to lay before your Lordships. The Bill contains four points to which I wish to call attention. In the first place, it provides for the establishment of Conservancy Boards; in the next place, it provides for their constitution; in the third place, it defines the duties of those Boards; and, in the fourth, it meets the greatest difficulty of the whole subject—namely, the raising of money to defray the expenses of the operations of the Boards. As to the constitution of the Boards, it is proposed to give power to 10 or more of the landowners of any district, to any existing Conservancy Board or any Sanitary Authority, to apply to the Local Government Board for powers to set up a Conservancy Board in the district. The Local Government Board, having been put in motion, will direct a local inquiry to be made, and thus everything will be conducted in the most public manner possible. Notice will have to be given to the people of the district in order that any of them may appear and make objection if they think it right to do so. If the Local Government Board are satisfied that a case has been made out for such a proceeding, it may issue a Provisional Order to setup a Conservancy Board; and, for the purpose of meeting the expense which will have to be incurred in case the Provisional Order is opposed in Parliament, the Local Government Board will be entitled to take from the promoters of the scheme an undertaking that they will appear to sustain the Order. The number of the Board will be defined in the Provisional Order. The Board will be constituted of two descriptions of members—first, of life members; and,
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  secondly, of elected members. The former, who are to be landowners of the district, are to number one-third of the Board, and vacancies among them, by resignation or death, are to be filled up by the Board itself. The second class of members will be elected by the Sanitary Authorities for a period of three years. If there is to be only one elected member, he must be a landowner; if there are more than one member, then one-half the elected members must be landowners. The duties of the Board so constituted will be to cleanse, widen, and deepen, and otherwise improve the channels and outfalls of rivers; the Boards will have power to remove all obstructions and to enforce the liabilities of riparian owners; they will have power to frame bye-laws, to have periodical surveys made of the catchment basins under their supervision, and to carry out the provisions of the Pollution of Rivers Prevention Act. With regard to the difficult question of rating, I propose to give a Conservancy Board power to levy a general rate, and with that view it is proposed to divide the lands into the uplands, the intermediate lands, and the lowlands. It is proposed that the rates on the uplands shall in no case exceed one-fourth the whole rate. Tenants are to be entitled to deduct from their rents one-half the rate paid by them. Powers are taken for the exemption of certain lands from the rate if they are injured; and, on the other hand, where lands are benefited so that they may be considered as improved by what had been done, they may be rated accordingly. Power of appeal to the Local Government Board is reserved to owners. When the whole district is benefited in a sanitary point of view, it must all contribute to the expenses. It is also provided that two or more Boards may combine for the purposes of the Act. These are the main provisions of the Bill, which I hope will not only remedy the evils complained of, but meet the justice of the case. I believe that the object is one of national importance, and therefore commends itself to the consideration of your Lordships.
  Bill to make provision for the Conservancy of Rivers—Presented (The LORD PRESIDENT).
  On Motion, That the Bill be now read 1a.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he could not allow the speech of the noble Duke to pass without thanking him and the Government for proposing to deal with the question. His noble Friend knew his views upon this subject so well that it would not be necessary for him to detain their Lordships long upon it. He was glad to find that the Government had taken the recommendations of the Select Committee, which sat some time since to consider the whole question of floods, as the basis of their legislation. He was certain that they were right in separating this subject from the question of County Boards, and in constituting a distinct Conservancy Board for each separate catchment basin, having as its special duty the conservancy of the rivers of its own district. It was unfair to enter upon the criticism of the Bill until they had seen its provisions. Considering, however, the statement which had been made by his noble Friend, he (the Marquess of Ripon) at that moment thought that a more simple arrangement with respect to the constitution of the Board might be devised, and one which would work better than the complicated system shadowed forth by the Lord President; but when the Bill was printed they would be able to consider more fully what the arrangements were. The opinion of the House of Lords' Committee was unanimous in favour of applying any measure to the whole of the area of each catchment basin, and he was glad that that had been followed. There was one point which his noble Friend had not explained, and that was what he proposed to make the basis of rating for the purpose of carrying out the operations of the Bill. He (the Marquess of Ripon) supposed that both houses and lands would be affected by the rating clauses. He had not risen for the purpose of offering any opposition to the principle of the measure; on the contrary, he felt sure that their Lordships would give the Bill a very careful and fair consideration.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he understood from the statement of the noble Duke that there was to be one Conservancy Board for each watershed. He asked how that was to be applied to
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  the River Thames, where there were at present different Conservancy Boards and several authorities extending from Oxford to Sheerness? And, moreover, there were certain rights appertaining to the Admiralty Board and to the City of London, which would be interfered with if one Conservancy Board were to be established governing the whole river. Was the Board to be instituted by the Bill to extinguish all other Boards and authorities? He saw nothing of it in the Report of the Committee, and perhaps the noble Duke would state shortly what the views of the Government were upon that point?
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in reply, said, that the Thames was omitted from the Bill; but in cases where two or more Conservancy Boards had rights over any portion of a river, they might be joined to the general Conservancy Board under the present Bill.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 1ª; to be printed; and to be read 2ª on Monday the 17 th instant. (No. 20.)

RAILWAYS (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they will lay on the Table of the House a Letter respecting narrow gauge railways in Ireland from the Board of Trade to the Chairman of Committees?
  LORD HENNIKER, in reply, said, there would be no objection to lay the Letter upon the Table of the House, if the noble Viscount would move for its production.
  Then—
  Copy of Letter respecting narrow gauge railways in Ireland from the Board of Trade to the Chairman of Committees: Ordered to be laid before the House.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.