Lords Sitting of 4 March 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Supreme Court of Judicature Acts Amendment (11); Assizes* (17).
Second Reading—Referred to Select Committee—County Courts* (12).

CITY OF GLASGOW BANK BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading, read.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, that, with regard to this Bill, he had thought it desirable to call their Lordships' attention to its special character, in order that he might take their Lordships' opinion upon it. All their Lordships must be aware of the difficulties in which a great number of persons had been thrown by the failure of the City of Glasgow Bank, and by the various transactions which were connected with that matter. In consulting with the Chairman of Committees of Ways and Means as to the measures which it might seem desirable to enter upon in the first instance in this House, that Gentleman had very earnestly desired that this Bill should commence in their Lordships' House, in order that there might be an opinion expressed upon it by persons of high legal authority for the purpose of directing the attention of Parliament to questions necessarily raised in connection with the failure. As it appeared to him, it was a Bill not entirely without some sort of precedent; but still it was not quite in accordance with the practice of Parliament. The first Bill of this nature was promoted for apparently the same purpose as was intended here—that of the Albert Life Assurance Company in the year 1871. It was brought into Parliament at that time, when, on account of an accident that happened to him (the Earl of Redesdale), he was not in attendance in the House; and, consequently, he had no share in the proceedings connected with that Bill. Since that time there had been the European Assurance Company's Bill, which was also an exceptional Bill. On both these, occasions arose for the action taken, owing to the state of the law. The only other Bill exceptional in its nature that he knew of, which was of any importance, was that of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway, which was a Bill, as their Lordships knew, instituted because it could not be ascertained when and by what means that Company's affairs could be settled. They were, therefore, obliged to apply for an Act of Parliament. In the pre-
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  sent Bill there were, no doubt, many provisions of considerable importance; and he thought it was desirable that the House should have some opinion on the subject before it adopted the principles of the Bill. But their Lordships would remember that in the present case the matter was very large, and that was made the chief excuse for the promotion of that measure. But, it might be asked, what was there in that case that made its settlement, contrary to that of almost every other affair, more expedient by proceeding under a special Act of Parliament than by coming under the ordinary proceedings of a Court of Law? He thought it was therefore more desirable that the House should act with discretion in the matter, and not too readily accede to the proposition. It was one of the provisions of the Bill that there should be the appointment of an Arbitrator instead of proceedings in the Courts of Law; and it was provided that the Arbitrator might settle and determine all matters by that Act referred to his Arbitration, not only as regarded the legal or equitable rights of the parties, but upon all actions, and in such manner, in all respects, as he in his absolute and unfettered discretion might think to be equitable and expedient, as fully as might be done by Act of Parliament. That was a most extraordinary power to give to any arbitrator, and their Lordships must feel that to give such power to any man to determine questions whether according to law or not according to law, but entirely in accordance with what he might think fit, was giving him a very wide power, which might not be considered in all cases by the parties affected by a decision to be in accordance with the justice of the case. He might also say that up to the present time, as far as he knew, the Courts of Scotland had found no difficulty in dealing with the matters brought before them. He believed that they had already given their judgment in a certain number of cases of large amount, and that the Courts had not found any difficulty in arriving at their conclusions. Under these circumstances, he thought their Lordships should consider well before they gave their assent to the principles of the Bill. He did not propose at the present moment to give an opinion upon it, and he would like to have some assistance from the House in directing the course that would be pru-

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  dent to adopt in determining this question.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, his attention had been called to this Bill by the noble Earl who had just spoken, and he was quite prepared to lay before their Lordships the observations that occurred to him to make upon it. But, in the first place, he must express his deepest sympathy with everyone who in any way was connected with the affairs of the City of Glasgow Bank, whether as shareholder or as depositor; and he was sure that in saying that he was not saying more than all their Lordships felt, and that if any course were open for assisting in accordance with what was the practice in such cases, by which relief could be given to those unhappy persons, Parliament would be very happy to give that relief. But their Lordships must carefully consider what was the proposal which was made by this Bill. Now, this Bill proposed at once, and with some violence, to terminate that which all the ordinary Courts of Law would determine. The proposal of the Bill was to take away from all those who at present had resorted to those Courts, who might be satisfied with those Courts, the right to continue those proceedings, and to substitute in place of the ordinary Courts of Law the authority and the decision—the absolute authority and the unappealable decision—of some individual to be named in the Bill, and who was to be called the Arbitrator, but who really was in the position of a despotic Sovereign, entitled to decide everything connected with the Bank in any way he thought fit. Now, it was said that there were precedents for taking this course. He would refer, in a moment, to those precedents; but he must first say, with regard to the Glasgow Bank, that although he believed it was a case almost without a parallel as regarded the magnitude of the liabilities which would have to be provided for, still, as far as he understood it, it was not a case in which there was any peculiar or special difficulty as to the legal aspect of the case. There were certain legal questions which arose, which would have to be determined; but the circumstance that the determination involved the question of several millions of money did not render the case in any way peculiar as regarded other cases in which the stake was much
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  smaller. The question of the importance of raising money, so far as he had heard, was not in any way peculiar. Now, one of the cases which had been mentioned as examples was that of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway; but that was a case which really had no application to the present one. That was a case where the share capital of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway had become so involved with claims between the different sections of it, that it was absolutely impossible to extricate the case from the confusion in which it stood through the acts of the Courts of Law. Some provision had to be made which would sacrifice legal rights entirely, and substitute for them fair provisions of a different kind. That was done through the medium of a private Act of Parliament; but it was thought that it could be done more conveniently through the intervention of certain Arbitrators who could act as if they had the power to make Acts of Parliament. Accordingly, they exercised that power, and their award really was in the shape of a private Act of Parliament. The next case was the case of the Albert Arbitration—and what he had to say with regard to that would apply equally to the European Arbitration. Both of these cases were alike. There was a gigantic Insurance Company breaking up, which had swallowed up some 15 or 20 other Insurance Companies, and there were involved questions of the greatest intricacy with regard to those different Insurance Companies and their shareholders as against each other. In the case of the Albert Insurance, the winding-up of all these Companies had been going on in the Court of Chancery for, he thought, nearly a space of 18 months; a very large sum had been expended in costs, and the result of all those proceedings had been absolutely nil. He was speaking only from memory; but he thought that there had not been a single list of contributories in any one of the Companies settled by the Court of Chancery. The intricacy of the case was so great, and the appeals before the Court were so numerous, that not only had the Court not got to the point of making a decision, but they had not settled the list of contributories. In addition to that, the Judges of the Court had themselves declared that it was impossible, as far as they saw, that the litigation

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  ever should end; they said, if the Court did nothing else but take the cases of the Albert Arbitration, they had more than enough to do. In addition to that, the shareholders in the Companies, and the policy holders, had manifested in very large numbers—and in this respect he would ask their Lordships' particular attention to the present Bill—their desire to be emancipated from the technicalities of proceedings in the Court, and to have their affairs settled through the medium of friendly arbitration. In that state of things, a Bill was introduced to Parliament, and it received the assent of Parliament, and the Albert Company was wound up. The European, also, was in the course of winding-up, and he believed it was very nearly completed. In the present case, the state of things, as their Lordships knew, was this—The City of Glasgow Bank failed, as far as he remembered, in the month of October last, and the liquidation commenced in the month of November. Now, the liquidation of the City of Glasgow Bank was not what was called a liquidation by the Court; it was a liquidation as a winding-up under the supervision of the Court—that was to say, by certain persons being appointed by the creditors and shareholders to be the liquidators of the Bank under the direction and supervision of the Court. When any question of difficulty arose, the Court was appealed to, and it decided the question. They were now in the month of March, and he was bound to say that the activity which had been displayed was extremely creditable to all the parties concerned, because he found that the list of contributories had been settled; he found that a call had been made upon the contributories, and a sufficient sum of money had already been got in to justify the payment of the first dividend. It was to be hoped that the dividend would be as much as 6s. 8d. in the pound—that was to say, one-third of the debt of the Company. Now, in order to accomplish this result, the Court of Session had shown, as it seemed to him, its very great power of dealing with the cases; because he was told that the Court of Session had decided, not all the cases that had arisen, but what were called all the "representative cases" that had been raised. A great number of cases had been raised that it was not necessary to allude to; but as representative
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  cases, the decision of them would govern others, and of those so decided, 10 had been appealed to their Lordships' House. The Court of Session, however, had decided in that short time all the cases which were required to be decided as representative cases, and, as he had said, 10 of these had been appealed to this House. One day next week their Lordships would commence the hearing of those appeals. Now, so far as regarded the action of the ordinary tribunals, what he had stated to their Lordships would show that there was no excuse for saying that the ordinary tribunals were not able effectively and speedily to deal with the questions that arose in the case. But then, he would ask, who was it that solicited interference with the ordinary tribunals of the country?—and there it seemed to him there was a difference between this case and those that had come formerly before the House. He was told that this Bill was promoted by two shareholders, and there had not been, as far as he was aware, any Petition to their Lordships' House by other shareholders, or any meeting held, or any manifestation or desire by other shareholders that this legislation should take place. He had no doubt that those who promoted the Bill had acted with the best possible motives; but what was desired was that there should have been some manifestation of the wish of the mass of shareholders and others for an interference with the ordinary tribunals of the country. Under those circumstances, he must say he should regret if their Lordships were to see in this case another instance for this very strong and high interference with the ordinary Courts. The instance in which they were now asked to act, as it seemed to him, had none of those peculiar features which the former cases had. In the observations which he had made, he had tried to describe the case as he understood it to be at the present moment. It was possible that it would assume a different aspect hereafter. It was possible that there might be delays and difficulties which he did not at present see any reason to anticipate. Of course, their Lordships would not actually dismiss the Bill at present. He thought, therefore, that their Lordships might be right in adopting this particular course—that they should not actually reject

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  and dismiss this Bill, but adjourn it for a certain length of time in order to see whether hereafter a state of things would occur different to that which he anticipated. If their Lordships thought it right to adopt that course, the Bill might possibly be put off for a period of a couple of months, and in that time they might see whether any of those difficulties which the promoters of the Bill had suggested which had not yet occurred should occur. Under the circumstances of the case, the course he had to recommend to the House was to defer for two months the second reading of the Bill.
  LORD HATHERLEYthought a primâ facie case had been made out by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack why the House should hesitate at the present moment to proceed with the Bill. He (Lord Hatherley) had endeavoured, but unsuccessfully, to discover who were the promoters and who were the opponents of the measure. He had no knowledge of the parties; but the Bill was of such a description that it ought not to be passed unless with a large consensus of approval from the shareholders on the one hand, and the creditors on the other. The proposal to postpone the second reading was, in his opinion, a very judicious course, and, therefore, he should support it.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, that the statement just made by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would be received with great gratitude by his unfortunate fellow-countrymen in Scotland. He was quite aware—and he thought the Lord Chancellor had very clearly put the point before the House—that the course pursued by the promoters of this Bill was unusual; but it was equally certain that the catastrophe which brought about the measure was unprecedented in the annals of this country. There was one statement in the speech of the noble and learned Lord which was not entirely correct. The noble and learned Lord said the Bill was promoted only by two shareholders, and that, so far as he knew, no meeting had been held in regard to this Bill. It might be technically true that only two shareholders appeared as promoters of the Bill; but it was also true that two meetings of shareholders, representing at least one-eighth of the stock of the City
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  of Glasgow Bank had been held, and at those meetings resolutions had been passed unanimously in favour of the Bill. At the outset of his speech, he understood the noble and learned Lord to recommend the summary dismissal of the Bill, and he was proportionately delighted to find from his concluding remarks that he only recommended its postponement. He was quite sure that with the extreme soreness of feeling in Scotland, and the unexampled destitution that prevailed in all ranks, from the highest to the lowest, any summary dismissal of this measure, which was rather a Petition than a Bill, would be very ill received in that country. Now, when the noble and learned Lord spoke of this Bill as not at present being necessary, he thought the noble and learned Lord had forgotten the great case of the Western Bank, which, though not by one-half as great as the Glasgow Bank, took 19 years to liquidate, and had then to be finally wound up by an Act of Parliament. At the end of 19 years, the liquidators had to apply to their Lordships' House for that very remedy which the promoters of this Bill were anxious to provide at the threshold of their proceedings. A great factor in the case was the immense expense that was going on. The interest on the enormous deficit of £12,000,000 entailed an annual expense of from £100,000 to £200,000; and he did not think that the period of liquidation could be put at a less time than in the case of the Western Bank. So it was easy to calculate the enormous expense that would fall upon the unhappy shareholders and others concerned in the liquidation of the Glasgow Bank. There was another circumstance which ought not to be lost sight of in considering this question. There were many manufacturers in Scotland who held shares in the Bank, who were placed in a very uncertain position by this liquidation. In fact, they did not know their position. All they knew was that they had to go on working for the benefit of the creditors of the Bank. Many of these individuals were men with families, and some of them were advanced in years, and from one day to another they had to go on working in ignorance of their real position, except that they were working for the creditors of the Bank, not for their

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  own families. He could only thank the noble and learned Lord for the course he had recommended to their Lordships, and sincerely hoped that when, two months hence, the subject came again before the House, they would not summarily dismiss the Bill.
  Order discharged, and Bill to be read 2a on Tuesday the 29th of April next.

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Ordered, That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 10th day of June next:
  That no Bill originating in this House authorising any inclosure of lands under special report of the Inclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or confirming any scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a first time after Friday the 4th day of April next:
  That no Bill originating in this House confirming any provisional order or provisional certificate shall be read a first time after Friday the 4th day of April next:
  That no Bill brought from the House of Commons authorising any inclosure of lands under special report of the Inclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or confirming any scheme of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales, shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 17th day of June next:
  That no Bill brought from the House of Commons confirming any provisional order or provisional certificate shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 17th day of June next:
  That when a Bill shall have passed this House with amendments these orders shall not apply to any new Bill sent up from the House of Commons which the Chairman of Committees shall report to the House is substantially the same as the Bill so amended.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 11.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 11.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read 2a (according to Order), said, he proposed that this and the Assizes Bill should be considered in a Committee of the Whole House; and that the County Courts Bill, which stood for the second reading for this evening, should be referred to a Select Committtee.
  LORD SELBORNEexpressed his concurrence in the course proposed by the noble and learned Lord.
  Motion agreed to; Bills read 2a, and committed accordingly.

ARMY—DESERTIONS—REPORT OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF RECRUITING, 1878.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ABINGER, in calling the attention of the House to the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting for 1878, asked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring forward any measure to check desertion from the Army? The noble Lord said, he desired to express at the outset his opinion that the linking of battalions together prevented the action of amalgamation which, under the new system, was now so desirable. With one hand they seemed to keep up the regimental system, and with the other they tried to destroy it. In his opinion, the time had arrived when the number of battalions or regiments in the Service should correspond with the depôt centres. There were two points which were satisfactory in the Report of the Inspector General. One was the splendid manner in which the Reserve had come forward when called upon; the other, that recruits were coming forward in more than sufficient numbers, and of a superior quality. Indeed, the supply of recruits was so far in advance of the requirements of the Service that the Inspector General had been able to increase the standard. He congratulated the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cardwell) upon the two cardinal points of the new system—namely, that of short service and the Reserves—which had so far worked satisfactorily. It was now proved that under the system of short service they could get a sufficient number of recruits, and the condition of the Reserves showed that they could at any time bring forward large numbers of old soldiers in the best state of efficiency. But there was a want felt, and it seemed to him that the Government should take power to call out a portion of the Reserves, not merely in times of great danger, but whenever their services would be required for small local wars. This might be done in one of two ways. They might either call out that portion of the Reserves attached to the depôt centre or sub-district to which the regiment was attached, or the men last passed into the Reserves. If either plan were I adopted, they would then send out well-

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  drilled, experienced soldiers, and they would fill up a gap which was still observed in the system. He noticed that in the Army Discipline Bill the Secretary of State proposed to take power to call out volunteers from the Reserves. So far well; but the Government should have positive power to call out a portion of the Reserves for service when required. As to the Report itself, he hoped it would be given annually. Now he came to the point raised in the Question of which he had given Notice—Desertion in the Army. He would repeat the opinion he expressed last year, that the true way to check desertion was by marking the whole Army, say, with a simple "V.R." of the size of a three penny-piece. This would enable them to get rid of the whole system of fraudulent enlistment. But if this were objected to, why should not the men who entered the Army be re-vaccinated in such a manner and. in such a place as to render the mark easily recognizable by Army surgeons? There would be no disgrace attaching to such a mark. If any doubt existed in the minds of the authorities as to the feeling of the men on the point, it could easily be obtained by sending a Circular round to the various centres—such as Aldershot, Shorncliffe, Colchester, and others, and invite an expression of opinion upon it. If the result should be that the plan was found distasteful to the men, why let them fall back on the marking of deserters, which he did not see any objection to. It was said that public opinion was against it; but he thought if it were clearly shown that all that was done was to put some distinguishing mark on the deserter, the public would not pronounce in any strong terms against it.
  LORD TRUROasked what was the cause of the desertions in the Army? The cause, in his opinion, was the amount of harass and the enormous number of minor punishments to which the men were subjected for the most trivial offences. There had been no less than 282,687 punishments in the course of one year in the British Army, and in the same period there had been over 16,000—near 17,000—courts martial. He should not presume to say what the requirements of the British Army were; but these punishments must, to an intolerable extent, harass the men—the result being desertion.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, it must, he thought, be generally admitted that the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting was a very favourable one in most respects. The Army had been recruited up to its full strength, and the Inspector General found no difficulty in getting recruits who were superior to the recruits of recent years and of a better physique. On that point, therefore, they might congratulate themselves. His noble Friend (Lord Abinger) turned from that point to deal with a question which was somewhat akin to it. His noble Friend seemed to object to the system of linked battalions, which he pronounced to be an anachronism in the present day, and added that things went on much better under the old system. He (Viscount Bury) was not about to express an opinion upon that point. His noble Friend was a laudator temporis acti; but Parliament had, with the full consent of all parties, adopted a new system, which, so far from breaking down, had proved itself, under the circumstances, as elastic and convenient as could reasonably be expected; and though his noble Friend had mentioned one or two points in which amendment might be possible, he did not raise any solid objection to the system itself. It should not be forgotten that at the present moment England had on her hands two wars, with the Army on a peace footing, and that she had been able to furnish all the troops required by the exigencies of the Public Service in two separate and distant quarters of the globe. It had been commented on somewhat strongly that two regiments recently sent to the Cape as reinforcements had themselves to be reinforced before they went out by volunteers from other regiments. That was quite true; but it must be remembered—to take one instance—that the 91st Regiment had been denuded of its men in order to supply deficiencies in the 72nd Regiment, which was its linked regiment, in India; but there was no difficulty in bringing the 91st, under the brigade depôt system, to its war strength when it became necessary so to do. The same remark applied to other regiments which had been sent out—as soon as the necessity arose, the men came forward. It was not pretended for the system that it was one of cast iron, which could not be remedied or perhaps remodelled here-

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  after, but it was one not to be hastily cast aside. Passing on to the subject of desertions, he (Viscount Bury) must admit, with regret, that they were numerous. Without doubt, the old plan of marking deserters was the simplest that could be adopted for preventing men who had been guilty of the offence from rejoining the Colours. He, for one, would be the last to hesitate on the ground of a mere mawkish sentimentality from marking a man who had deceived his country and probably committed a fraud of the grossest and most cowardly description, coupled with the robbery of his clothes and other necessaries, in order to prevent him from repeating his offence. But the system of marking had been abandoned after full consideration, and it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to recommend a recurrence to it. As to the alternatives suggested by his noble Friend, he could not hold out any hope that the opinion of the Army generally would be taken by Her Majesty's Government as to the advisability of adopting a universal system of marking officers and privates alike. The vaccination plan would be practicable, but it had been determined not to adopt it, for the present, at all events, in the hope that the provisions of the Bill recently introduced in the other House of Parliament would be of such a nature as materially to diminish the number of desertions. Until it was seen how that proposal worked, it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose any departure from the existing system.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEdesired to say a few words. In the first place, he must express his astonishment at some of the observations of the noble Lord (Lord Truro), who was under the erroneous impression that there was either an undue amount of crime or of punishment in Her Majesty's Service, and that the annoyance to which the men were exposed by petty punishments was the explanation of the number of desertions from the Army. No doubt, the Returns of offences made up a large aggregate, which those not acquainted with the minor details of the Army system might think serious; but those offences did not represent any proportionately large amount of crime, for the reason that they were chiefly inflicted for very minor offences. Some increase in the number of offences
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  against discipline might be found in the large number of young non-commissioned officers they now had. The class of non-commissioned officers they formerly had were men of stability as well as respectability, with discretion and command of their tempers, which gave weight to any rebuke they might feel it their unpleasant duty to administer. Now, unfortunately, they had to deal with a number of young men and young non-commissioned officers, who, instead of listening to the rebuke of their superiors, were too apt to be what was commonly called "cheeky." Looking through the Report carefully, he did not find that there was more serious crime than formerly. Desertion was altogether another question. Desertion, he would not deny, had increased very largely; but that he accounted for in the same way as he accounted for the greater number of minor offences shown by the Returns-—namely, by the circumstances arising under the new system of enlistment. They uniformly found that when they had, as was the case under the short-service system, a very large number of recruits, a great number of desertions followed, for the simple reason that many men went into the Army with the intention to desert. This was not an experience of to-day merely. They would find, if they looked back, that there had been invariably a large amount of desertions when they recruited to a heavy amount. Recruiting and desertion had always increased in about equal ratio. As far as the marking of deserters was concerned, he thought it was sufficiently understood that marking was no part of the punishment for desertion; but was simply adopted in order to prevent the public being cheated over and over again by re-enlistments on the part of men who had previously run away from the service of their country. He did not deny that it was necessary to do something; but he objected in toto to one of the alterations suggested—to mark every man—officer as well as private—on entering the Army. As to the officers, he strongly deprecated its application. As regarded the officers, they never deserted; and as regarded the privates, the very fact that a young man on entering the Army would be liable to be marked would be an indignity to which he would not willingly submit, and it would be of

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  itself sufficient to prevent his enlisting. As far as the vaccine mark was concerned, the case was different. It would not in itself be an indignity, inasmuch as all men entering the Army had to be vaccinated, and it could not matter as to the way in which the punctures were made; while, at the same time, it would afford a means of identifying men upon whom the operation had been performed. He had been somewhat astonished to hear his noble Friend (Lord Abinger) go into the general question of the organization of the Army, which was not raised by his Notice. Not having expected such a departure from the subject-matter of the Notice, he was not prepared to enter upon a debate which might otherwise have been very appropriate; but he wished to remark that it was all very well to talk just now about doing away with linked battalions. There was a great deal of sentiment in these matters; but he desired to point out, as regarded linked battalions, that the men were interchangeable as the exigencies of the Public Service required. There was not the slightest difference in that respect between linked battalions and double battalions. The same inconveniences that existed in the case of the one existed in that of the other also. If they had double battalions—the one at home, the other abroad—and deficiencies arose in the latter, how could they be made up without volunteering? The truth was that the outcry as to volunteering resolved itself into a question of money. If they had money, they could get the men and could do without volunteering; if they had not, they could not get on without it. It was impossible, without a sufficient number of men, to carry out the duties required. They were asked why they did not keep the regiments which were high on the list for foreign service up to their full complement? Well, they did so. But it happened that men dropped off; that others were entitled to their discharge; that others were required for depôt duty. Moreover, when a regiment was suddenly ordered abroad for service in a tropical climate, it could not take with it the men under a certain age, or those within a few months of their discharge; so that he would venture to say that there was not a regiment in the Service from which it would not be necessary to knock off at least
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  200 men when ordered abroad. They had not got the Establishment that would enable them to keep sufficient depôts to dispense with volunteering from other regiments. Unless, as he had said, they had a sufficient number of men, it was clearly impossible to avoid volunteering. He admitted that the system of volunteering was objectionable—that he felt as strongly as any of their Lordships could do—but volunteering was not inherent in the new system only. When he was in the Crimea, in command of a division which included the Highland Brigade, one regiment of that brigade, on going out, took out volunteers from the two other regiments that remained at home; when the second went out and joined the brigade, it took volunteers from the third; and at last the third regiment, on joining the brigade, was composed almost entirely of volunteers. There was nothing new, therefore, in that system; although as a soldier he would, of course, much rather it was not necessary to resort to it. But, he repeated, it was a question of money. If they did not wish to have volunteering, they must put their hands into their pocket. If they did not, they must be satisfied that whatever Government was in power would do the best they could under the circumstances in which they were placed. He trusted that their Lordships and the country would admit that those who worked under him, as also the Secretary of State, had done the best they could, and that it was wonderful that in so short a time the battalions had been made up, and that under very difficult circumstances. It was a proof of the good spirit and good feeling that prevailed in the Army that they could have had many hundred more soldiers who were anxious to join any regiment under orders for foreign service. There was no doubt that third or depôt battalions could have been formed, if the circumstances had been considered so serious as to render such a step necessary; but it was one which could not be taken unless the country was prepared to pay for it.
  VISCOUNT CARDWELLsaid, he quite concurred in what had been said by his noble and gallant Friend opposite (Lord Abinger) on the subject of the linked battalions. They knew, however, from what had occurred last night in "another

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  place," that it had been the intention of Her Majesty's Government up to a late moment to reduce the number of the rank and file to be voted for the year. As the illustrious Duke had said, if it were intended to create third battalions, they must be prepared to incur the necessary expense. If they were not, then whatever other means might be at their disposal, they would fail in their object. They would not, indeed, ever again be placed in the position in which Lord Raglan found himself in the Crimea, or have to fill up regiments in the way he was called upon to do; because they had trained Reserves whom they could call out for a national emergency, such as that of last year, or they could have recourse to a certain amount of volunteering. It was said fey his noble Friend that it would be desirable to have compulsory power to call out a certain portion of the Reserve Force for a temporary purpose, if they wished to meet an ordinary war like the present by battalions, not exclusively composed of young recruits, but in some part assisted by men volunteering to join them from the Reserve; but he thought it a wiser determination on the part of the Secretary of State not to seek such a power, but, except in the case of great national emergency, to be satisfied with the readiness of those who might be invited to volunteer.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDreminded their Lordships that the step taken last year in the calling out of the Reserves had been only half a success. It was true that the men had come out with alacrity when called upon; but the military establishments were not ready to receive them. Those establishments had been so starved that the men were unable to find their clothing or their equipment, to enable them to take at once their places in the ranks. The essential condition of the Reserve system, with short service, was that all these preparations should be made beforehand. The Departments ought to be organized and maintained in a state of entire efficiency, if they desired to see the system work successfully.

INDIA—SCARCITY OF GRAIN IN THE PUNJAB.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD WALSINGHAMasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether
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  Her Majesty's Government have received any information which would lead them to anticipate a scarcity of grain in the Punjab during the present year; and, whether any precautions have been taken to provide against the possible emergency of a famine in that district? He was led to put the Question by information which he had received from a reliable source as to a condition of things in the North-West of India, which, if truthfully represented, seemed to demand the careful consideration and early attention of the Government. He was informed by a gentleman long resident in the Punjab district, in a letter dated January the 29th, that no snow or rain had fallen there since September; that the cold weather crops were dying for want of the usual winter rains; and that on the mountains above there was no heaped-up snow to supply the rivers in the hot weather. Now, their Lordships were well aware that in that country the chief food of the people came from the crops of rice which they grew, and that if the rivers were not swollen by melting snow, that irrigation upon which the cultivation of rice entirely depended would become impossible. Enormous quantities of grain had been exported from the Punjab during the last two years to feed the starving populations of Madras and Bombay, and as there was now no surplus store in that district, a failure of crops would involve the necessity of importation or the alternative of famine. Moreover, it was difficult to see whence a sufficient supply could be derived to replace the recent exportations, if the emergency should unfortunately arise. The means of information at the command of the Government were naturally so much better than those which could be derived from any private sources that he was anxious—first, to ascertain whether they had received any confirmation of the statements to which he had called their Lordships' attention; and, secondly, to express a hope that should those statements be corroborated, they would not permit any unusual calls upon the Revenues of India to deter them from making timely and full provision against a repetition of one of those great calamities which had so lately fallen upon other districts of that Empire.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: On my attention being called to this subject by the Notice on the Paper, I put myself

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  in communication with the Governor General by telegraph, and I have received from him a reply which brings down our information to this very morning. My noble Friend need not be the least apprehensive that the Government of India will not be looking with anxious eyes wherever there are the least signs of famine. The Government of India is all the more alive to this question because of what has already happened; and I can assure my noble Friend that the greatest care is being taken to provide against any emergency that may occur in the various Presidencies. There is no doubt that there has been a failure of the winter rains; but the consequences, I hope, will not be so serious as my noble Friend seems to anticipate. The Governor General has sent two telegrams. The first is as follows:—
  "Lieutenant Governor has just visited great part of Punjab. No present apprehension of famine.
  "Present situation.—Autumn harvest fair. Winter rains very scanty and spring crop prospects thereby affected. During past fortnight rain fell in parts and will do good, but still withheld in Delhi territory. Central and Western Punjab.—Prices dear throughout Punjab. Rain in upper districts will still do good, as harvest there is late. Main spring crops cut in April.—Estimate of expected yield not available.
  "Central Provinces.—Spring crop cut and exceeds expectations, which is good augury for crops elsewhere. In Cashmere, where dearth expected, Punjab Government have arranged to send 4,000 tons of grain."

  The second telegram, which is apparently in reply to one sent by the Viceroy to inquire as to the failure of the February rains, is couched in the following terms:—
  "North West Prospects.—Recent rain more widespread, though not sufficiently general. Autumn crop good and furnishes a staple food of poor. Prices dear. Famine not apprehended. Scarcity will probably be felt in Agra and adjoining districts."
  This information shows that the Government of India are doing their utmost to provide against any contingency such as that which the noble Lord apprehends.

ARMY—THE AUXILIARY FORCES—THE YEOMANRY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHasked the Under Secretary of State for War, What
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  arrangements the Government contemplate making this year in respect to calling out the Yeomanry for permanent duty; and in the event of a certain number of troop drills being substituted for the permanent duty, what pay will be allowed the troops attending them, and whether they will be allowed to receive it without having attended the previous three days' qualifying drill? He would suggest that the Government should, as there was considerable distress in some agricultural districts of the country, cause an inquiry to be made of all the regiments, whether they were willing or not willing to be called out this year. He thought that some regiments would desire to be called out, and others not.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War explained in "another place" yesterday why the Yeomanry would not be called out for duty this year; audit was the same reason which applied to the Militia being called out for 20 days instead of for the usual period—namely, the economy that had to be studied in framing the Army Estimates of this year, and it had to take the form of curtailing the permanent duty of the Yeomanry and the period of service of the Militia. The plan suggested by the noble Marquess could hardly be adopted, because it had already been arranged that the system indicated by his right hon. and gallant Friend yesterday was to be carried out, and it could not be re-considered this year. His noble Friend the noble Marquess would remember that the Committee upon this subject suggested that it should be optional with the commanding officers to give the men 7s. per diem for every day's training, or 3s. 6d. per diem for four days when not called out for permanent duty but for troop drill; and, as to the last part of the Question, he might say that, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, the preliminary recruiting drills would not be insisted upon, but the men who came up for four days' troop drill would receive 3s. 6d. a-day, without any reference being made to those preliminary drills.
  THE EARL OF CORKregretted the result at which the Government had arrived, as he thought the number of drills should be increased and not diminished. As in 1860 the Yeomanry were not called out for permanent drill, it

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  would seem that that corps was made to suffer for their wars in India. It should be remembered that the farmers voluntarily gave their services; and he thought that the men who joined the corps should be encouraged to serve their country in the only way they could do. This was bad economy on the part of the Government; and he really did think that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War might have found some other way of saving such a small sum as £6,000.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.