HL Deb 16 June 1879 vol 246 cc1901-8
LORD TRURO

rose to ask, Whether Her Majesty's Government have finally determined to appoint an exclusively military Committee to inquire into the defects of our present military organization? The noble Lord said, he had put a Question upon the subject before the Recess; but he was met with silence. The Government was one of silence and surprises; but he wished to know what it was they now purposed to do? Not long ago, our Army had been spoken of as in a condition to go through three campaigns; but it now appeared that the country had been seriously deluded, and the Government had at last been compelled to take some steps to put the Army in a proper condition for the defence of the country. It was proposed to appoint what was called a military Committee; and if the question were one of military discipline or of the size of regiments, he could well understand why it should be confined to military men. Some military authorities declared that the Army was in a rotten condition; we had come to a positive deadlock; and the question was, whether the rottenness was in the system of the noble Viscount (Viscount Card well), or in the administration of that system. He did not think that the system as introduced by the noble Viscount was a rotten one; but he thought that the system had not been wisely or loyally administered by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cranbrook, in the passing of three-years' men into the Reserves, which was not the system of the late Government. The Government had been carrying out a foreign policy which, in some respects, would not be condemned; but, at the same time, they had quite forgotten their defences at home. The Secretary of State for India (Viscount Cranbrook) spoke in a joyous spirit the other day at Sheffield of our military success in Afghanistan; but that could not be dignified by the name of a war—it was merely a military promenade; while in South Africa, where we had war, we had neither success nor progress. In reply to a Question in "another place," the Secretary of State for War (Colonel Stanley) had expressed the hope that he would obtain for this Committee men of impartial mind, free from prejudice and preconceived opinions; but it was hopeless to expect such impartiality and freedom from prejudice in military men. The question which those gentlemen would have to discuss and to inquire into would not be those affecting military discipline; but they would have to ascertain what obstacles existed to men enlisting, and other things, and how military requirements were to be met; and, therefore, it was specially desirable that there should be a large civil element on the Committee.

The EARL OF GALLOWAY

, who had given Notice of his intention to ask—(1.) Whether the Committee has yet been nominated who are to report upon the present state of our Army organization; and, if so, whether there is any objection to state their names: (2.) Whether there will be any objection to lay upon the Table of this House a Copy of the instructions which have been issued, or are about to be issued to this Committee? said, that he would put them now, so as to save the noble Viscount the trouble of speaking twice. He desired their Lordships to recall what had happened on this subject during the last few months. After a sleep of somewhat inexplicable length, the Secretary of State for War at length awoke to the fact that the British Army was in a state of collapse. It appeared to him (the Earl of Galloway) that it must have been well known to the authorities at the War Office three or four months ago that the British Army was in the state which he had described. He would not, however, enter into any details on the subject on the present occasion; but, taking into account the state of the organization of the Army, the country had, he thought, a right to expect that by this time the Committee would have been appointed and would have commenced its labours. Seeing the delay which had occurred, he was afraid that Parliament would be prorogued before the public had ascertained what it was really in the contemplation of the Government to do. The question was a very serious one; and he felt certain that if a board of general officers were appointed, they would at once condemn the brigade depot system for its imbecility as well as its extravagance, and that the short service system would be found to be open to the charge of inhumanity, as was testified by the hospitals throughout the country.

VISCOUNT BURY

thought the Questions which had been put to him by his noble and gallant Friends admitted of being very easily answered, and that he could give very satisfactory reasons why the matter to which they related should be left to be inquired into by a Committee composed exclusively of military men. He had, therefore, to state that it was the intention of the Government to appoint a purely military Committee. It had been very freely said out-of-doors that our present military system was not satisfactory, and, up to a certain point, the Government had admitted that such was the case. They knew that there were defects in the system. His noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Long ford) had said the other day that it had been described as positively rotten; but he had taken care to add that he did not altogether endorse that opinion. But, be that as it might, a very strong opinion had, at all events, been expressed in many quarters, both outside and inside the House, that our present military system was not satisfactory, and the Government, as he had already said, admitted, to a certain extent, that there was some justification in that view. They had succeeded to a mode of administering the Army which had been inaugurated by their Predecessors in Office, and which they had determined loyally to carry out. It had, after many debates, been decided that the present system should have a fair trial; and the system under which the Army was now worked was the result partly of the action of their Predecessors, and partly of their own action working on the lines which had been laid down. It having been found, however, that there were a good many defects in the system which the Government did not wish to conceal, the only course open to them was to institute an inquiry to decide whether it should be continued, and whether, if continued, some of its defects might not be removed. His Royal Highness the illustrious Duke on the cross-benches (the Duke of Cambridge), and other military Advisers of the Secretary of State for War, had repeatedly pointed out, especially of late, the defects of the system; and the very natural question had been asked of them, what they would advise to be done? The illustrious Duke had given in the most loyal and straightforward manner his advice; but, on consultation, the Secretary of State for War thought it would be more satisfactory that a Committee of military men should be appointed to investigate the subject. There seemed, he might add, to be a good deal of misunderstanding as to what were to be the aims and objects of the Committee. It was supposed that they were to draw up some new scheme for the re-organization of the Army and armed with the powers necessary for carrying it into effect. That, however, was not the case. What the Government required was the advice of competent military authorities in the matter. When such a Committee made their Report, it would then be for the Government to decide what further action would be necessary. If, of course, the Committee should be of opinion that the system was rotten, then the matter would be referred back to the Government, to be dealt with in the ordinary Constitutional way in consultation with both Houses of Parliament. But if the Committee confined themselves, as they possibly might, to suggesting certain alterations of detail, then these points would be referred to the Secretary of State, and would be dealt with by him. The question was not of appointing an Executive Committee to make a new re-organization of the Army, but simply a consultative body to advise the Government, and that was the reason why the Government had deemed it desirable to appoint a purely military Committee. The names of the Members of the Committee would, he might add, be known in a very few days. His right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State had, indeed, he believed, in consultation with the illus- trious Duke and others, determined on the names of those of whom it would be composed, and he hoped those names would be very shortly laid on the Table of the House. He was not, however, prepared to lay them on the Table that evening; while as to the instructions, he did not think it would be fair to the Committee, in the ease of an inquiry of such delicacy, or convenient to the Public Service, that they should be produced. The Committee, he had every reason to hope, would soon meet. They would probably not occupy a very long time in prosecuting their labours, and the result of their deliberations would then be laid before Parliament.

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK

said, that as the administration of the Army by him, as a Member of the Government, had been attacked, he wished to say a few words, although it might seem unnecessary that he should do so, seeing that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Truro), as well as his noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Galloway), from whom the attack came, semed to hold perfectly opposite views on the subject—the one being of opinion that the system which had been established by his Predecessor at the War Office was perfect, while the other maintained that it was absolutely rotten. Still, it might appear disrespectful not to notice the personal attack of the noble Lord opposite. The noble Lord opposite had, he believed, commanded several regiments, and if he had continued to command them, it was probable that he should have heard from him more soldierly advice than he had given that evening with regard to waiting for six years to pass men into the Reserve. There were countries when men, after one year's service, passed into the Reserve; but there was abundant military authority for saying that a soldier might be thoroughly trained in three years, and, after such service, might be advantageously passed into the Reserve. It had been tested by experience; and he ventured to ask military men who had seen the Reserve Force when called out last year, whether the three years' men had not presented a thoroughly soldierly appearance? He could appeal to the illustrious Duke's personal inspection of them. If the noble Lord's advice had been followed, and the Reserves had consisted only of men who had been six years in the Army, there would have been a very different show of the Reserve on that occasion. He was fully conscious that many shortcomings would be perceived in his administration of the War Department. He found on entering upon it that measures had been passed with great care and caution by the Parliament of this country which had instituted a particular system. He felt certain, from the very beginning, that a sudden change would be as inconsistent with the safety of the Army as it would be inconsistent with the interests of the country. He, therefore, determined to give the best aid he could to a full development of the system set on foot. In many respects he might have acted differently from the way in which his noble Friend (Viscount Card well) would have done if he had been in Office; but his object was to develop the system, and bring it to as great perfection as possible. And when he was told now that the system was rotten, and that everything about the Army was rotten, he utterly denied that that assertion had any foundation in fact. If the Afghanistan War was merely a military promenade, as the noble Lord (Lord Truro) said, that was owing to the fact that it was carefully and methodically pre-arranged and carried out by soldiers who were competent to discharge the duty. He entirely differed from the view that a war must be considered unsuccessful, or a mere promenade, because it had not led to an infinity of battles and bloodshed. On the contrary, bethought the skill of a general was more shown in bringing a war to a successful termination without disaster and without bloodshed. He did not deny that the system had its defects, nor that they did not get a great many young soldiers; but he was prepared to say that if it had been arranged, as it would be in a European war, to mingle the Reserves with the regiments, we should have presented as strong a front as at any period of our history. The evil of young soldiers entering the Army at premature ages was not one which was connected with short service alone; but it had been connected with recruiting at all times, because it happened that in this country employments were readily found, and when men of 19 or 20 obtained employment, they did not turn from those pursuits to enter into the Army. The question of recruiting would be very properly considered by the Committee. He ought not to detain their Lordships; but with regard to the attacks which had been made upon him, he might observe that as they had been made by both sides upon exactly opposite grounds they could not be right, and he did not think that he was altogether wrong.

LORD DORCHESTER

said, if the nomination of a Committee took five weeks, the question was, indeed, a difficult one to decide, and the difficulties of searching into it must be far greater than there was any reason to suppose. An eminent General had been sent for to preside over this Committee; but he was ordered by the civil power—the Secretary of State—entirely unknown to the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge), to a mixed command in South Africa. If rumour was correct, the Committee was to be composed of men who were committed to the present system, and who, therefore, would not be likely to report against it. He thought it necessary that the names of the Committee should be speedily known.

LORD WAVENEY

said, one of the points which it would be necessary for the Committee to inquire into was the subject of recruiting in agricultural districts. He had the honour of commanding an agricultural brigade of Artillery for 25 years, and he could say that at present the men were superior in intelligence and physical development to those whom he first received into the ranks. There was an improved disposition as to binding themselves with regard to the Reserve; but as to volunteering for the war in South Africa, the Return he had to make was nil. He hoped the Committee would go fully into the question of recruiting. The point was how to retain the old soldier in the Service. Above all things, he trusted the Committee would consider what was the enormous friction of a great war machine, and how soon a campaign in the field frittered away the best of the strength of the Army.

VISCOUNT CARDWELL

said, much had been stated with regard to the Committee being entirely a military one, and that it would leave out a large part of what ought to be included. He had no such apprehension. He knew by whom the Committee was to be composed. The noble Lord who, he understood, was to be President, Lord Airey—there was, perhaps, no harm in mentioning the name—was an experienced soldier, who would never forget the absence of a Reserve in the Crimean War. He (Viscount Cardwell) had confidence in Lord Army, and he was sure the day would never come when that gallant soldier would forget the absolute necessity of a Reserve when the Army was in the field. In Lord Airey's hands the fate of the inquiry was safe. He hoped and believed that it was intended to make this inquiry, not superficial, but complete; and except upon the supposition that it was to be a complete inquiry he should be fearful of the result, for he knew the prejudices with which an inquiry of this kind had to contend. With these few final words, he commended the Committee to the approval of their Lordships.

House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.