Lords Sitting of 16 June 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (Axminster Union, &c.)* (94); Local Government (Highways) Provisional Orders (Buckingham, &c.)* (95); Local Government (Poor Law) Provisional Orders* (96); Local Government Provisional Order (Artisans and Labourers Dwellings)* (102); Local Government Provisional Orders (Abergavenny Union, &c.)* (103); Local Government Provisional Orders (Aysgarth Union, &c.)* (104); Gas and Water Provisional Orders Confirmation* (101).
Committee—Hares (Ireland) (89).
Committee—Report—Convention (Ireland) Act Repeal (77); Costs Taxation (House of Commons)* (99).
Third Reading—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Waterford, &c.)* (91); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (Both well)* (92); West India Loans* (85), and passed.

CHURCH OF ENGLAND—THE CHAPTER OF YORK CATHEDRAL—CASE OF THE REV. JAMES FLEMING.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  LORD HAMPTON, in rising to call attention to the painful position of the Reverend James Fleming, as a canon residentiary of York Cathedral, in being deprived of the rights and privileges of a member of the chapter; and to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the difficulties which have arisen with respect to Canon Fleming's position will be referred for consideration by the proposed Royal Commission, said, that Canon Fleming now found himself in a very painful, as well as unprecedented position; and in order to avoid the consequences of that position, he was contemplating a resignation of the office which he had received from the Crown. The public generally were aware of the fact that in cathedrals of the old foundation the office of canon residentiary was composed of two parts—the one the canonry, and the other the prebendary, the latter of which gave to the canon residentiary his rights to a seat in the chapter. York Cathedral was one of the old foundations; but it had been the invariable custom, when a canon residentiary fell vacant, for one person to be appointed to both the canonry and the prebendary. By ancient custom rather than by law, when a clergyman was promoted to a Bishopric, the appointment to fill up the vacancy caused, by the promotion fell to the Crown. The Crown appointed the Rev. James Fleming to the canonry, but the most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of York) intervened, and appointed the hon. and rev. Mr. Forester to the prebendal stall which had boon vacated by the promotion to the Bishopric. He (Lord Hampton) believed he might say, without fear of contradiction, that the course taken by the most rev. Primate, whatever might have been his motives, or his views of the question, was entirely without precedent—that there had been no case in which, upon the filling of the
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  residentiaryship of York, there had been any separation between the prebend and the residentiaryship, which together made up the position of canon residentiary of York. He thought there could be but one feeling—that this was a state of things inconsistent with the high ecclesiastical rank of the Cathedral Church of York. He could not but believe there must be some misapprehension with regard to this case. The most rev. Primate could not have contemplated that Canon Fleming would be deprived of the rights and privileges of a member of the chapter; but Mr. Fleming had not been able to exercise the right to preach in his turn in the cathedral, and it was doubtful even whether his vote in the chapter had been recorded. He thought their Lordships would agree that this state of things in the cathedral ought not to exist. The question, then was, what was the remedy for such a state of affairs? He had been informed on high authority that the proper thing to do was to apply to the Court of Queen's Bench to issue a mandamus to the dean and chapter of York; but he would venture to suggest a remedy free from any of the anxiety attending a mandamus, and which required no suit at law. His remedy was that there should be a conciliatory reconsideration of the case, and the most rev. Primate should appoint Canon Fleming to the next prebendal vacancy. He was supported in his view by a letter he had received from one of the deans of the old foundation. The letter stated—
  "I hold that the Bishop or the Crown have a perfect right to nominate any spiritual person, although not a prependary, to a vacant canon residentiaryship. It is of great importance to the Bishop and the Crown to contend for this privilege, for it widens the area of their choice. But this granted, I submit it is well for the Bishop to give a prebendal stall to such an incoming canon (whether appointed by the Crown or by himself) as soon as possible, and so reduce any conflict between 3 &c 4 Vict. and the statutes of an old foundation cathedral as much as possible. It would be well to join a prebendal stall indissolubly with each canon residentiaryship, so that they might fall vacant together, and a new canon (whether appointed by the Bishop or the Crown) become at once a member of the prebendal body."
  In conclusion, he begged to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the difficulties which had arisen with respect to Canon Fleming's position would be referred for consideration by the proposed Royal Commission?
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: There can be no doubt that this is, as my noble Friend (Lord Hampton) has said, a complicated cage; but it is only complicated by matters being introduced into its consideration which really have nothing to do with the point which we have to decide. The case to which my noble Friend has called the attention of your Lordships cannot, as he has said, be fairly understood without some reference to a previous appointment to a canonry in the same chapter of York. When Dr. Basil Jones was appointed to the See of Llandaff, the prebendal stall and residentiary canonry together with the chancellorship of the cathedral, which he had held, became vacant; and I asked the most rev. Primate the Archbishop of the Province (the Archbishop of York) as to the order in which the three appointments should be filled up. The answer which I received was that the prebend was to be filled first, then the chancellorship of the cathedral, and next the canonry. I then instructed the Secretary of State to take the necessary steps; but when it came for the most rev. Primate to per for in his part of the duty, he reversed the order which he had recommended mo to adopt, and nominated the hon. and rev. Mr. Forester to the canonry, before he issued his mandate for the appointment of the same hon. and rev. gentleman to a prebendal stall and to the chancellorship of the cathedral. Since then, the Chapter have demurred to the order in which the appointments were made, and not only questioned the propriety of what had been done, but absolutely declared that under no circumstances should any clergyman be appointed to a canonry who had not previously been a prebend of the cathedral. This course being one which, if correct, would have limited the power of the Crown as patron, which power it was my duty to defend, I caused a ease to be submitted to the Law Officers of the Crown. They considered it, and they decided that the course taken by the Chapter was quite erroneous—that an Act had passed—the 2 &c3 Vict. c. 113—which had terminated the qualification for holding a canonry which the Chapter had insisted upon, they themselves being probably not aware of the existence of such an Act. But the matter had been decided, and as illus-
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  trative of the law which, they laid down, the Law Officers referred to a then recent ease, the "Queen v. the Dean of Hereford." All this was communicated to the Chapter, and no further difficulties occurred. Canon Forester was appointed, and enjoyed his rights and privileges as a canon. A remarkable circumstance is that a considerable time afterwards—some months subsequently—I received a letter from the most rev. Primate the Archbishop of the Province, informing mo that he had, in the first instance, from want of knowledge, given mo inaccurate advice as to the order of the appointments; and that he was advised that by the law, as it now stood, the appointment of every prebend not in receipt of emolument was reserved to the Archbishop. That was rather a startling announcement, and as the only object which the Government could have was to ascertain the truth and to defend the just Prerogative of the Crown, I thought the best course to adopt was again to submit the new point to the Law Officers. They considered it, and they decided that the Archbishop was quite right in his interpretation of the law. It appears that after the Act which I have already quoted was placed upon the Statute Book—either in the following year, or two years afterwards, in the reign of her present Majesty—an Act was passed which reserved, as the Archbishop stated, all the prebendaries not connected with emolument to the Archbishop. There was no controversy at the time to which I am now referring, the question as to Canon Forester having been settled; but, shortly after this, another vacancy occurred by Her Majesty nominating Dr. Thorold to the See of Rochester. He was canon residentiary of the Chapter of York. At that time, the most rev. Primate wrote to me announcing that he should exercise his privilege, which was not contested; and after the Law Officers had given their decision, I felt it my duty to write to him, acknowledging that the position which he had adopted was recognized by the Government, and that, in future, I certainly should not contest the appointments. By the appointment of Dr. Thorold, a canon residentiaryship became vacant. The Archbishop wrote to me to say that, in accordance with his previous announcement, with the opinion of the Law Officers, and with

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  my letter which had sanctioned the course, he should exercise his privilege and appoint a prebendary—leaving me, of course, to avail myself of the right of exercising, with the consent of Her Majesty, the Royal Prerogative of appointment to the canonry. Under these circumstances, I felt it my duty to recommend Her Majesty to appoint Dr. Fleming to the canonry, in recognition of his great ability, zeal, and high character, and in a full conviction that he would do further honour to the sacred Order, of which he was already a distinguished member. This being so, one would have thought that if the Chapter held the strong opinions which my noble Friend now attributes to them they would have called a meeting, and, after arriving at some strong opinion, would have communicated it to me; but they did nothing of the kind, and, as far as I know, the only thing done was a few individual protests until after the canon had been installed, and then the Chapter expressed their opinion that their views should be submitted to the Law Officers of the Crown. Your Lordships must be aware that it is not customary to allow strangers to submit their cases, as matter of course, to the Law Officers of the Crown. Generally, it is considered to be the privilege of Her Majesty's Ministers, when in doubt, to fall back upon those gentlemen; but I knew that corporations, and especially ecclesiastical corporations, are of a sensitive character, and, therefore, I determined to meet their views in every possible manner. I wrote to the Chapter of York, telling them that if they would have their case prepared by themselves it should be submitted to the Law Officers, and that I would authorize some gentleman, on their part, to see all the papers and to inspect the opinions when they were given. The Law Officers decided distinctly against the position which the Dean and Chapter of York had taken up. They decided according to what they considered to be the clear intention of the Act referred to by the most rev. Primate—not viewing it in any way as a question on which there could be any doubt. I think your Lordships will be rather astonished that the matter did not then rest; because, although it was not a formal arbitrament, yet still one might have morally expected that the decision of the Law
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  Officers would have been accepted by the Chapter. But that was not the case. The opinion given by the Law Officers was entirely adverse to the claim of the Dean and Chapter, and instead of submitting to it, they passed at last this resolution—
  "That the recent appointment of the Rev. James Fleming to the office of canon residentiary, he not having been previously appointed a member of the prebendary body, is, in the opinion of high legal authorities, consulted at different times by the Dean and Chapter of York, likely seriously to affect the constitution of the cathedral. The Dean and Chapter, therefore, deem it expedient that the points in debate should he referred to a Court of Law, so that a conclusive decision may be obtained on a matter of such importance."
  What were we to do under these circumstances? There was only one interpretation to put upon them. We were perfectly ready that the matter should be settled by a Court of Law, if the decision of such a Court was deemed necessary by the Dean and Chapter. I called upon the Solicitor to the Treasury to put himself into communication with the legal advisers of the Chapter, so as to see how the matter could be brought before the Queen's Bench. A long time elapsed, and much correspondence passed between the Solicitor to the Treasury and persons on behalf of the Chapter; and, after a long time, the Solicitor to the Treasury said that it was totally impossible to induce the Chapter of York to agree to any basis upon which a legal point could be raised and the decision of the High Court arrived at, and that it was quite clear to him that they had no wish to have the decision of a Court of Law. They were, in fact—
  "Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike."
  Your Lordships should observe that it was the Dean and Chapter who first started the idea of having the decision of a Court of Law. It was not Her Majesty's Government. I should mention that nothing could be so simple as to obtain a legal decision. The Dean and Chapter had only to refuse Canon Fleming a vote upon any occasion when a vote was taken in the Chapter, or to inhibit him from preaching, and the whole question could then have been submitted to the Court of Queen's Bench. The Dean and Chapter, however, would never make any movement of the kind; and as Her Majesty's Government were

  1893
  advised by the Law Officers of the Crown that the appointment of Mr. Fleming to the canonry was perfectly legal, they declined to take any further step. Certainly, when I heard from my noble Friend that the question which he has brought before your Lordships is a most painful question, and that there is a chance, in consequence of its having been raised, of Canon Fleming's resigning the important and well-deserved preferment which he has gained, I must say that nothing could give me more pain than if a man so distinguished were by any misunderstanding between the most rev. Primate the Archbishop of the Province and the Dean and Chapter to be deprived of a position which he is calculated eminently to adorn. I will ask your Lordships' permission to read a few questions which I have placed upon paper, and which will make the exact situation of affairs clear. Are the privileges of Canon Fleming denied? First, as to his vote. In a letter dated the 3rd of October, 1877, Mr. Fleming writes—
  "I claimed my place in the chapter to-day and voted. The Dean allowed me to vote, for I asked him whether he acknowledged my vote, and he replied 'Certainly.'"
  As to Mr. Fleming's stipend, he has always been paid a stipend. As to his residence, he has resided regularly. As to his preaching—and this is important, for he is one of the most eloquent preachers I have ever listened to—well, Mr. Fleming has preached, though there did appear an anonymous paragraph which said that he did so only by courtesy, but which was not traced to any authority. The Law Officers assert that Canon Fleming's admission has been complete and formal, and that no complaint can be made based upon the form of the oaths of admission. Under these circumstances, what is the conclusion that it seems must inevitably be drawn? It is that Mr. Fleming is as good a canon as any canon of any cathedral, and that he enjoys all his privileges. As to the conduct of the most rev. Primate the Archbishop of the Province, it is clear that, as far as his communication with the Government has gone, he has acted under legal advice. My Lords, I can only say, if Mr. Fleming is placed in a painful position, that I am here to defend him; and that if his rights and privileges are not admitted or, at least,
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  are denied him by the Dean and Chapter, I am ready to advise that he shall have those rights and privileges asserted. Before I do so, however, his rights must be denied him. The Dean and Chapter have involved us in a most painful and lengthy correspondence—painful, only, because it is lengthy; but they have no case whatever. They are really setting up the memory of an ancient custom against the statute law of the Realm. No one can be more interested than myself in Mr. Fleming's possession of all his rights and privileges, as I am responsible for having advised the Crown to nominate that gentleman to his post. I believe he will be an honour to the position which he occupies; and if any member of the Chapter of York attacks his rights and privileges—if they prevent him from voting when there is a meeting of the Chapter, or if they prevent him from residing or preaching, or in any way impugn the undoubted and legal rights which he possesses as canon residentiary of York—I am the person who will be first ready to take up his cause.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKsaid, he only rose to say a few words, lest the noble Lord who had brought this subject before the House (Lord Hampton) should think his silence disrespectful. This was not a new controversy, for it had, in fact, been going on for 15 years. He would quote several instances which showed that that was the case. The first occurred in 1864, when the Dean and Chapter ignored the Act of Parliament altogether, and elected a canon by the old process, under which nobody was collated as a residentiary canon, but under which one went through the process of "protesting one's residence," and thus became a residentiary canon. The Act of Parliament provided that any priest who had been in Priest's Orders for six years could be collated a canon residentiary; but the Dean and Chapter preferred their own custom of only making prebendaries canons residentiary. He had taken legal advice in reference to this matter, and those whom he had consulted, in every case said that the statute, in its plain, obvious meaning, did away with the ancient custom. Dr. Jones was collated in July, 1873, but not installed, and the same course was adopted in the next case—namely, that of Dr. Thorold in February,

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  1874. In that which followed, Mr. Forester was admitted in December, 1874, and without being a prebendary he was installed—the first case of the hind on record. But there, it was known that if installation was refused, legal proceedings would be adopted; and then followed the case so fully explained by the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield). The question, which had just been so luminously dealt with, might be reduced to this—had a canon so appointed a right to vote in chapter, and whether any but residentiary canons had a right to vote? In the Act it was provided that a "canon" should be understood throughout as a "residentiary canon," and it would be seen by the Act that he had full power to vote in the chapter. In the present case, the Dean and Chapter obtained a doubtful opinion from Sir Robert Phillimore on the whole case; but, in reply to the question—
  "Would such residentiary become by virtue of his office a member of Chapter, not having ever been elected to a vacant prebend—in fact, has the Archbishop of York the power to increase the number of members of the chapter?"—He said—"I incline to the opinion that he would be a member of the Chapter."
  He (the Archbishop of York) had been applied to as to whether he would not present Mr. Fleming to the vacant prebend. Well, he did not see how his doing so would remove the difficulty. In 1877 Mr. Fleming voted, and he either voted in his right, or he did not. If he did not vote in his own right, he was an intruder; and his receiving, in 1879, a perfect appointment would not mend the matter. It was not a question whether he had the right of appointment, or the Crown, or the Dean and Chapter; the question was, whether the matter was to remain in a state of muddle? He had asked Mr. Fleming whether his vote was taken, and he said that there was so much confusion, so many people were talking at once, that he could not say whether his vote had or had not been taken. Then he asked the same question of the dean, and he replied that he had prepared a statement, which he would send him, and it was sent to him, and to many of their Lordships as well. It made out that he (the Archbishop of York) had done some very sad things, with very painful effects; but it did not say a word as to whether Mr. Fleming had voted. In their cor-
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  respondence with the noble Earl at the head of the Government (the Earl of Beaconsfield), the Dean and Chapter used some expression of this kind—"We cannot admit we have done what we havenotdone"—thatwas, they could not admit that they had refused the vote. Well, according to that, Mr. Fleming had his vote; and, in one point, he had taken the matter in rather a wrong point of view. He was a man of great eminence, and the choice of the Crown might well fall upon him. Since Mr. Fleming had been in York, notwithstanding the somewhat cold and suspicious atmosphere of the place, no person had so rapidly gained the hearts and affections of the people as Mr. Fleming had. He was not aware that he had been forbidden to preach; but if that were so, he (the Archbishop of York) would undertake to find him enough preaching within the ambit of York to last him till that time next year. But Mr. Fleming had taken the matter in the painful point of view. After all, it was a principle of law. Why had he not appointed Mr. Fleming to the vacant prebendal stall? Because there was not the least necessity for it. He had now every possible privilege he could then have; and it was not desirable, after 15 years, that this dispute should be prolonged. Up to his appointment, he had not seen Mr. Fleming, though he had known him very well ever since. He could not appoint a clergyman he did not know. The Crown looked over a broader space; he was concerned only with his own diocese, and appointed Mr. Landon, who bore a distinguished name. The question, as he said, was one of dry law, and it was very undesirable that this scandal, for it had almost become a scandal, should go on festering among them. The course taken by the Crown appeared to him to be perfectly straightforward and reasonable. The Dean and Chapter had been offered every facility for raising the question, and they had refused to do so. It was for their Lordships to say whether the case was one for a new Act of Parliament. For his part, a new Act did not appear to be necessary. There was another case which was on all fours with the present, that of the Dean and Chapter of Chichester. The Dean and Chapter belonged to an old cathedral. The present Bishop took precisely the same course he (the Arch-

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  bishop of York) adopted when, in 1870, a canonry and prebend became vacant. He wished to make two appointments, and give them to men of merit. A correspondent of The Times said about that ease—
  "As at York, there was no stall appropriated to a canon residentiary; but the Bean and Chapter made arrangements for a stall. As at York, there was no preaching turn for a canon residentiary; but Mr. B., like his brethren, supplied, in his turn, the place of an absenting prebendary. The difference between York under Dean Buncombe, and Chichester under Dean Hook, seems to be this. The Chapters of both cathedrals have been aware of their power of raising an obstruction; the Chapter of York-showed their ability in making the most of it, the Chapter of Chichester in breaking it down."
  Well, what occurred at Chichester was either a great violation of the Act of Parliament, or it interpreted the law quite sufficiently for their guidance. The difficulties in the case of York had been artificially raised, and were not much worthy of their Lordships' attention.
  LORD HAMPTON, who was inaudible, said a few words in reply.

HARES (IRELAND) BILL.
(The Viscount Massereene.)
HARES (IRELAND) BILL.

  (NO. 89.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  EARL SPENCERsaid, that this was a Bill for making a close time in Ireland for hares, and he would like to have some explanation from those who had charge of the Bill as to the necessity for such a measure, which would make the law in Ireland different to that in England, and might lead to considerable difficulties.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYalso considered that there should be a statement made as to the expected operations of the Bill.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWNsaid, that the Bill would not be objected to by the farmers of Ireland, as hares were nearly extinct in that country.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that he had a good supply of hares on his property, and thought it would be injurious to prevent hares being killed where there were growing crops.
  Amendments made: the Report there of to be received on Thursday next.

CONVENTION (IRELAND) ACT REPEAL BILL.—(No. 77.)
(The Lord O'Sagan.)
CONVENTION (IRELAND) ACT REPEAL BILL.—(No. 77.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Lord O'Hagan.)
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that the Act proposed to be repealed was passed by the Irish Parliament in 1797, and he would like to know why it was to be abolished, seeing that recently there had been meetings in Ireland of a Communistic character? He thought that Ireland was in a less satisfactory state now than it had been for some years past; and, therefore, he could not understand why the Act should be repealed.
  LORD O'HAGANsaid, the Bill was only intended to repeal legislation which had become entirely obsolete, and came before their Lordships, not only with the sanction of the Government, but the unanimous approval of the House of Commons.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee.
  Bill reported without Amendment; an Amendment made; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

SPAIN—CONTRABAND TRADE AT GIBRALTAR—CASE OF THE "ROSSLYN."

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF ST. ALBANSrose to call attention to the case of the "Rosslyn," and asked, What instructions are given to the police and Custom authorities at Gibraltar to prevent contraband trade with Spain; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will lay upon the Table any recent Correspondence relative to this question or to a demarcation of the waters of the Bay of Gibraltar? The noble Duke said, the Rosslyn, as appeared by a letter from Lloyd's agent, published in the newspapers, was a British ship, which had received several tons of tobacco at Gibraltar to transfer to another vessel off the coast of Spain. On arriving at the rendezvous, however, the Rosslyn, instead of finding her consort, was seized by Spanish guarda-cost as and taken into Cadiz. Mr. Perry, the English Consul,

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  demanded and obtained her release—on what grounds it was not stated. But it was to be hoped that such an act of open smuggling could not be committed under the British Flag with impunity. It was well known that contraband trade was carried on with Spain to a considerable extent from Gibraltar. He would not enter into the question how far Spanish officials connived at this; but it seemed to him that, if it was necessary that we should hold Gibraltar, we ought to make our position there as little galling as possible to Spain. If a corresponding state of things existed in the Isle of Wight, this country would certainly not be disposed to tolerate it. Those of their Lordships who knew Gibraltar would be aware of the constant disputes and reprisals which the uncertainty existing as to the limits of British and Spanish waters gave rise to; and he should be glad to hear that there was some likelihood of the maritime jurisdiction of the two countries in this respect being defined. Our legitimate trade with Spain was of considerable importance. His personal experience was that an English vessel was received in a Spanish port with kindness and courtesy; and he hoped to be told that the British Government were prepared to do all that lay in their power to prevent the good understanding between the two countries being jeopardized by the existence of a state of things at Gibraltar such as the scandal of the Rosdyn had revealed.
  EARL CADOGAN, in reply, said, Her Majesty's Government had no information on the subject of the Rosdyn which the noble Duke (the Duke of St. Albans) did not himself possess. He (Earl Cadogan) was not in a position to say whether the Consul at Cadiz had or had not demanded the release of the vessel; but the fact that the vessel had been released seemed to show that the Spanish authorities did not feel very strongly in the matter. Smuggling did, no doubt, prevail to a great extent at Gibraltar. It had occupied the attention of both the late Government and the present one; and from Correspondence which had been laid upon the Table, their Lordships would see that the present Governor of Gibraltar (Lord Napier of Magdala) had made various suggestions for the suppression of the traffic. Those recom-
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  mendations had been embodied in an Order in Council which was issued in 1878. An increased hue was imposed for landing goods after dark, and the Governor stated that smuggling had materially diminished in consequence. Any later Correspondence than that already laid on the Table could not be conveniently produced. Correspondence was in progress with reference to the demarcation of the waters; but it was of a confidential nature at present, and could not, therefore, be produced.
  LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALAsaid, that the Government of Gibraltar had no control over the ordinary transactions of the trade of a free port. Ships called, and deposited or carried away such cargoes as they pleased; and unless these consisted of spirits or wine, or munitions of war, the Local Government possessed no rights to interfere with them. But that particular form of smuggling which had been carried on by small vessels that left the port in the evening, and, abusing the protection afforded by the British fortifications, stole round the Book about dusk, waiting for darkness to enable them to elude the Spanish preventive boats, had been virtually put an end to. By the means and regulations which the Colonial Government had placed in the hands of the Local Government, such strict vigilance was exercised that it was very difficult for boats to leave the port after the hour when it was prohibited. Boats found loitering about the Rock were sent back to the port, and a breach of the port regulations was punishable by a fine of £100. Another form of smuggling had been practised by Spaniards, who visited Gibraltar daily, and in returning were in the habit of sitting down on the neutral ground, beyond the control of the British sentries, and then undressing, and concealing their tobacco, in order to pass the Custom House officers at their own barriers. At the request of the Spanish Consul (Senor Jan Juan), whoso courtesy and friendliness in ail international questions had been as remarkable as his honest attention to the interests of his own country, he (Lord Napier of Magdala) permitted our policemen to cause these people to move on beyond the half of the neutral ground nearest the fortress, and the Spanish police looked after the other half. By these means the practice had been practically stopped, though any relaxation of vigi-

  1901
  lance would allow it to revive. From some observations which appeared in one of the daily papers some time ago, there would appear to be a misapprehension regarding the conduct of the local authorities, to the effect that they did not do all in their power to prevent smuggling; but the truth was that they really did all that the law allowed them, and even step beyond it, out of consideration for the Spanish Government, and to avoid any ground of complaint.

ARMY—ARMY ORGANIZATION—DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE.

  QUESTIONS. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRUROrose to ask, Whether Her Majesty's Government have finally determined to appoint an exclusively military Committee to inquire into the defects of our present military organization? The noble Lord said, he had put a Question upon the subject before the Recess; but he was met with silence. The Government was one of silence and surprises; but he wished to know what it was they now purposed to do? Not long ago, our Army had been spoken of as in a condition to go through three campaigns; but it now appeared that the country had been seriously deluded, and the Government had at last been compelled to take some steps to put the Army in a proper condition for the defence of the country. It was proposed to appoint what was called a military Committee; and if the question were one of military discipline or of the size of regiments, he could well understand why it should be confined to military men. Some military authorities declared that the Army was in a rotten condition; we had come to a positive deadlock; and the question was, whether the rottenness was in the system of the noble Viscount (Viscount Card well), or in the administration of that system. He did not think that the system as introduced by the noble Viscount was a rotten one; but he thought that the system had not been wisely or loyally administered by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cranbrook, in the passing of three-years' men into the Reserves, which was not the system of the late Government. The Government had been carrying out a foreign policy which, in some respects, would not be condemned; but, at the same time, they had quite forgotten
  1902
  their defences at home. The Secretary of State for India (Viscount Cranbrook) spoke in a joyous spirit the other day at Sheffield of our military success in Afghanistan; but that could not be dignified by the name of a war—it was merely a military promenade; while in South Africa, where we had war, we had neither success nor progress. In reply to a Question in "another place," the Secretary of State for War (Colonel Stanley) had expressed the hope that he would obtain for this Committee men of impartial mind, free from prejudice and preconceived opinions; but it was hopeless to expect such impartiality and freedom from prejudice in military men. The question which those gentlemen would have to discuss and to inquire into would not be those affecting military discipline; but they would have to ascertain what obstacles existed to men enlisting, and other things, and how military requirements were to be met; and, therefore, it was specially desirable that there should be a large civil element on the Committee.
  The EARL OF GALLOWAY, who had given Notice of his intention to ask—(1.) Whether the Committee has yet been nominated who are to report upon the present state of our Army organization; and, if so, whether there is any objection to state their names: (2.) Whether there will be any objection to lay upon the Table of this House a Copy of the instructions which have been issued, or are about to be issued to this Committee? said, that he would put them now, so as to save the noble Viscount the trouble of speaking twice. He desired their Lordships to recall what had happened on this subject during the last few months. After a sleep of somewhat inexplicable length, the Secretary of State for War at length awoke to the fact that the British Army was in a state of collapse. It appeared to him (the Earl of Galloway) that it must have been well known to the authorities at the War Office three or four months ago that the British Army was in the state which he had described. He would not, however, enter into any details on the subject on the present occasion; but, taking into account the state of the organization of the Army, the country had, he thought, a right to expect that by this time the Committee would have been

  1903
  appointed and would have commenced its labours. Seeing the delay which had occurred, he was afraid that Parliament would be prorogued before the public had ascertained what it was really in the contemplation of the Government to do. The question was a very serious one; and he felt certain that if a board of general officers were appointed, they would at once condemn the brigade depot system for its imbecility as well as its extravagance, and that the short service system would be found to be open to the charge of inhumanity, as was testified by the hospitals throughout the country.
  VISCOUNT BURYthought the Questions which had been put to him by his noble and gallant Friends admitted of being very easily answered, and that he could give very satisfactory reasons why the matter to which they related should be left to be inquired into by a Committee composed exclusively of military men. He had, therefore, to state that it was the intention of the Government to appoint a purely military Committee. It had been very freely said out-of-doors that our present military system was not satisfactory, and, up to a certain point, the Government had admitted that such was the case. They knew that there were defects in the system. His noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Long ford) had said the other day that it had been described as positively rotten; but he had taken care to add that he did not altogether endorse that opinion. But, be that as it might, a very strong opinion had, at all events, been expressed in many quarters, both outside and inside the House, that our present military system was not satisfactory, and the Government, as he had already said, admitted, to a certain extent, that there was some justification in that view. They had succeeded to a mode of administering the Army which had been inaugurated by their Predecessors in Office, and which they had determined loyally to carry out. It had, after many debates, been decided that the present system should have a fair trial; and the system under which the Army was now worked was the result partly of the action of their Predecessors, and partly of their own action working on the lines which had been laid down. It having been found, however, that there were a
  1904
  good many defects in the system which the Government did not wish to conceal, the only course open to them was to institute an inquiry to decide whether it should be continued, and whether, if continued, some of its defects might not be removed. His Royal Highness the illustrious Duke on the cross-benches (the Duke of Cambridge), and other military Advisers of the Secretary of State for War, had repeatedly pointed out, especially of late, the defects of the system; and the very natural question had been asked of them, what they would advise to be done? The illustrious Duke had given in the most loyal and straightforward manner his advice; but, on consultation, the Secretary of State for War thought it would be more satisfactory that a Committee of military men should be appointed to investigate the subject. There seemed, he might add, to be a good deal of misunderstanding as to what were to be the aims and objects of the Committee. It was supposed that they were to draw up some new scheme for the re-organization of the Army and armed with the powers necessary for carrying it into effect. That, however, was not the case. What the Government required was the advice of competent military authorities in the matter. When such a Committee made their Report, it would then be for the Government to decide what further action would be necessary. If, of course, the Committee should be of opinion that the system was rotten, then the matter would be referred back to the Government, to be dealt with in the ordinary Constitutional way in consultation with both Houses of Parliament. But if the Committee confined themselves, as they possibly might, to suggesting certain alterations of detail, then these points would be referred to the Secretary of State, and would be dealt with by him. The question was not of appointing an Executive Committee to make a new re-organization of the Army, but simply a consultative body to advise the Government, and that was the reason why the Government had deemed it desirable to appoint a purely military Committee. The names of the Members of the Committee would, he might add, be known in a very few days. His right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State had, indeed, he believed, in consultation with the illus-

  1905
  trious Duke and others, determined on the names of those of whom it would be composed, and he hoped those names would be very shortly laid on the Table of the House. He was not, however, prepared to lay them on the Table that evening; while as to the instructions, he did not think it would be fair to the Committee, in the ease of an inquiry of such delicacy, or convenient to the Public Service, that they should be produced. The Committee, he had every reason to hope, would soon meet. They would probably not occupy a very long time in prosecuting their labours, and the result of their deliberations would then be laid before Parliament.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that as the administration of the Army by him, as a Member of the Government, had been attacked, he wished to say a few words, although it might seem unnecessary that he should do so, seeing that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Truro), as well as his noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Galloway), from whom the attack came, semed to hold perfectly opposite views on the subject—the one being of opinion that the system which had been established by his Predecessor at the War Office was perfect, while the other maintained that it was absolutely rotten. Still, it might appear disrespectful not to notice the personal attack of the noble Lord opposite. The noble Lord opposite had, he believed, commanded several regiments, and if he had continued to command them, it was probable that he should have heard from him more soldierly advice than he had given that evening with regard to waiting for six years to pass men into the Reserve. There were countries when men, after one year's service, passed into the Reserve; but there was abundant military authority for saying that a soldier might be thoroughly trained in three years, and, after such service, might be advantageously passed into the Reserve. It had been tested by experience; and he ventured to ask military men who had seen the Reserve Force when called out last year, whether the three years' men had not presented a thoroughly soldierly appearance? He could appeal to the illustrious Duke's personal inspection of them. If the noble Lord's advice had been followed, and the Reserves had consisted only of men
  1906
  who had been six years in the Army, there would have been a very different show of the Reserve on that occasion. He was fully conscious that many shortcomings would be perceived in his administration of the War Department. He found on entering upon it that measures had been passed with great care and caution by the Parliament of this country which had instituted a particular system. He felt certain, from the very beginning, that a sudden change would be as inconsistent with the safety of the Army as it would be inconsistent with the interests of the country. He, therefore, determined to give the best aid he could to a full development of the system set on foot. In many respects he might have acted differently from the way in which his noble Friend (Viscount Card well) would have done if he had been in Office; but his object was to develop the system, and bring it to as great perfection as possible. And when he was told now that the system was rotten, and that everything about the Army was rotten, he utterly denied that that assertion had any foundation in fact. If the Afghanistan War was merely a military promenade, as the noble Lord (Lord Truro) said, that was owing to the fact that it was carefully and methodically pre-arranged and carried out by soldiers who were competent to discharge the duty. He entirely differed from the view that a war must be considered unsuccessful, or a mere promenade, because it had not led to an infinity of battles and bloodshed. On the contrary, bethought the skill of a general was more shown in bringing a war to a successful termination without disaster and without bloodshed. He did not deny that the system had its defects, nor that they did not get a great many young soldiers; but he was prepared to say that if it had been arranged, as it would be in a European war, to mingle the Reserves with the regiments, we should have presented as strong a front as at any period of our history. The evil of young soldiers entering the Army at premature ages was not one which was connected with short service alone; but it had been connected with recruiting at all times, because it happened that in this country employments were readily found, and when men of 19 or 20 obtained employment, they did not

  1907
  turn from those pursuits to enter into the Army. The question of recruiting would be very properly considered by the Committee. He ought not to detain their Lordships; but with regard to the attacks which had been made upon him, he might observe that as they had been made by both sides upon exactly opposite grounds they could not be right, and he did not think that he was altogether wrong.
  LORD DORCHESTERsaid, if the nomination of a Committee took five weeks, the question was, indeed, a difficult one to decide, and the difficulties of searching into it must be far greater than there was any reason to suppose. An eminent General had been sent for to preside over this Committee; but he was ordered by the civil power—the Secretary of State—entirely unknown to the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge), to a mixed command in South Africa. If rumour was correct, the Committee was to be composed of men who were committed to the present system, and who, therefore, would not be likely to report against it. He thought it necessary that the names of the Committee should be speedily known.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, one of the points which it would be necessary for the Committee to inquire into was the subject of recruiting in agricultural districts. He had the honour of commanding an agricultural brigade of Artillery for 25 years, and he could say that at present the men were superior in intelligence and physical development to those whom he first received into the ranks. There was an improved disposition as to binding themselves with regard to the Reserve; but as to volunteering for the war in South Africa, the Return he had to make was nil. He hoped the Committee would go fully into the question of recruiting. The point was how to retain the old soldier in the Service. Above all things, he trusted the Committee would consider what was the enormous friction of a great war machine, and how soon a campaign in the field frittered away the best of the strength of the Army.
  VISCOUNT CARDWELLsaid, much had been stated with regard to the Committee being entirely a military one, and that it would leave out a large part of what ought to be included. He had no such apprehension. He knew by whom
  1908
  the Committee was to be composed. The noble Lord who, he understood, was to be President, Lord Airey—there was, perhaps, no harm in mentioning the name—was an experienced soldier, who would never forget the absence of a Reserve in the Crimean War. He (Viscount Cardwell) had confidence in Lord Army, and he was sure the day would never come when that gallant soldier would forget the absolute necessity of a Reserve when the Army was in the field. In Lord Airey's hands the fate of the inquiry was safe. He hoped and believed that it was intended to make this inquiry, not superficial, but complete; and except upon the supposition that it was to be a complete inquiry he should be fearful of the result, for he knew the prejudices with which an inquiry of this kind had to contend. With these few final words, he commended the Committee to the approval of their Lordships.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.