Lords Sitting of 22 July 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Army Discipline and Regulation (Commencement) (157).
Second Reading—Commons Act (1876) Amendment (152).
Committee—Report—Customs Buildings* (146).
Third Reading—Public Loans Remission* (144); Army Discipline and Regulation (156), and passed.

BRENTFORD AND ISLEWORTH TRAMWAYS BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."
  LORD TRUROmoved an Amendment that the Bill be read a third time that day three months. The noble Lord said, that the proposed tramway would begin nowhere and end nowhere, and, in fact, the two ends had no other purpose than to continue the central section. The opponents of the Bill were the inhabitants of the district, and, as far as he knew, no Petition had been presented in its favour. He did not know who the promoters were. In fact, all that was required in starting a project of the kind was an engineer and a solicitor. The South-Western Railway afforded accommodation to the travelling public of the locality. The market gardeners of the district and the waggoners who used the road on which the proposed tramway would be laid down were strong in their opposition to the scheme, and there was not the least prospect of such a passenger traffic on the road as would make the tramway desirable.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day three months").—(The Lord Truro.)
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he did not feel justified in opposing the Bill, which had come up from the Commons.
  On Question, That ("now") stand part of the Motion? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 44; Not-Contents 5: Majority 39.

  CONTENTS.

  Cairns, E; (L. Chancellor.)

  Clanbrassill, L. (E. Roden.)

  Clinton, L.

  Northumberland, D.

  Clonbrock, L.

  Richmond, D.

  Colchester, L.

  Cottesloe, L. [Teller.]

  Salisbury, M.

  Crofton, L.

  De L'Isle and Dudley, L.

  Beaconsfield, E.

  de Ros, L.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Digby, L.

  Bradford, E.

  Elphinstone, L.

  Cadogan, E.

  Hartismere, L. (L. Henniker.)

  Clonmell, E.

  Coventry, E.

  Inchiquin, L.

  Dundonald, E.

  Kenlis, L. (M. Headfort.)

  Hardwicke, E.

  Harrowby, E.

  Lilford, L.

  Macclesfield, E.

  Lyveden, L.

  Redesdale, E. [Teller.]

  Monson, L.

  Romney, E.

  Norton, L,

  Verulam, E.

  Penrhyn, L.

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford.)

  Cranbrook, V.

  Hawarden, V.

  Skelmersdale, L.

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

  Sudeley, L.

  Windsor, L.

  Templetown, V.

  Wolverton, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Ellesmere, E.

  Stanley of Alderley, L. [Teller]

  Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.)

  Truro, L. [Teller.]

  Vivian, L.

  Resolved in the Affirmative; Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

METROPOLITAN AND METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third READING, read.
  The Queen's consent signified; Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORD: As a Member of the Select Committee of your Lordships' House to which this Bill was referred, I may be allowed to state that it was after a long inquiry that they arrived at their decision, and they would now prefer to see the Bill passed without amendment. It will, however, be for the House, after hearing the Amendments which are about to be proposed, to take whatever course they may be advised.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES): I may for a moment be permitted to state that since Friday last I have seen the parties; and although, there is great objection in
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  general to amending Bills which have passed Select Committees of both Houses of Parliament, there seems to be no reasonable objection to make some alteration in the direction suggested by the noble Earl (the Earl of Camper-down), who has placed Amendments on the Paper. The noble Earl, in the first place, objected to sub-section 2 of Clause 42, which is as follows:—
  "The two companies, or either of them, may hold and let the hereditaments or premises and may grant building and repairing leases of the same for any term they may think fit."
  Since placing that Amendment on the Paper, however, the noble Earl has objected to the entire clause. I do not feel myself to be in a position to accede to that Amendment, and what I propose is that the clause shall be retained, omitting from it the words "by virtue of any Act or Acts heretofore passed." The effect of these words is to extend, the action of the Bill in certain cases over lands acquired by the two Companies under former Acts as well as under this Bill, so that the omission of the words will have the effect of confining the operation of the clause to lands vested in the two Companies under this Act.
  Amendment made.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES): The next Amendment which the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) has placed on the Paper is to leave out the following words at the end of Clause 91:—
  "Nor to sell or appropriate any part of the property purchased by them, or to set back any frontages for improving or widening street."
  It seems that the Corporation of London, the Metropolitan Commissioners, and the Board of Works, objected to these words as putting them in an unfair position for dealing with the land. I therefore think that the words can be struck out, but that the following Proviso should be inserted:—
  "Provided, That in the event of any part of the lands acquired by the two companies under this Act being hereafter taken from them by the Corporation, Commissioners, or Board, for improving or widening the adjoining streets, regard shall be had in the settling of compensation to the monies and other considerations given by the two companies for acquiring such lands."
  Amendment made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons,

COMMONS ACT (1876) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 152.)
(The Lord Henniker.)
COMMONS ACT (1876) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 152.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD HENNIKER, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill was a very simple one; it had passed the other House unopposed, and was approved by those most conversant with the subject. The facts of the case were that the Act of 1876 provided that funds derived from the letting or the sale of the herbage of recreation grounds should be applied to certain limited purposes; these funds had accumulated in the hands of parish officers, and they had discovered, in many instances, that it was not within their power to apply them as laid down by the Act; while in the same parish field gardens remained undrained and unimproved for want of funds. The object of the Bill was to release these funds, which could not at present be usefully applied, or, in fact, employed at all, and to enlarge the provisions of the Act of 1876 in the direction indicated by the one really enacting clause of this measure.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

ARMY DISCIPLINE AND REGULATION BILL—(No. 156.)
(The Viscount Cranbrook.)
ARMY DISCIPLINE AND REGULATION BILL—(No. 156.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Viscount Cranbrook.)
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, he had not had time to examine the Bill as closely as he would have wished to do. The country was not satisfied with the condition of the Army. We must not have an Army which after all the pains which had been taken with it was disorganized by a little war.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.

ARMY DISCIPLINE AND REGULATION (COMMENCEMENT) BILL—(No. 157.)
(The Viscount Bury.)
ARMY DISCIPLINE AND REGULATION (COMMENCEMENT) BILL—(No. 157.)

  FIRST READING.
  Bill read 1a.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he would have to ask their Lordships to meet at 2 o'clock to-morrow, in order to advance this Bill.
  Bill to be read 2a To-morrow; and Standing Orders Nos. XXXVII. and XXXVIII. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with.

METROPOLIS—DANGERS OF THE STREETS.—MOTION.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWNmoved, pursuant to Notice—
"That in view of the enormous increase in the number of persons injured by the passage of vehicles in the streets during the year 1878 as compared notably with that of 1877 and the years preceding it, Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department be instructed to move the vestries of the several parishes of the Metropolis to erect central refuges in all such places as in the opinion of the superintendent of the police such shall be required for the protection of those passing on foot."
EARL BEAUCHAMPthought that their Lordships would hardly be disposed to accede to the Motion. He thought the noble Viscount was mistaken in thinking that there had been that enormous increase in the number of persons injured by the passage of vehicles in the streets of the Metropolis as was indicated in his Motion. On the contrary, the Returns presented to Parliament showed a considerable improvement in this respect. In respect of fatal accidents since 1869 down to the present time, the number had remained very much the same. In 1869, when the population of the Metropolis was 3,500,000, the number of fatal accidents was 182; and in 1877, when the population had increased to 4,500,000, it was 124. This was a great improvement when the great increase in the number of passengers was taken into consideration. The ordinary street accidents also had decreased within the specified period. The House would scarcely arrogate to itself the function proposed by the noble Viscount. The erection of those refuges was a matter for the Vestries, and it would be for the Secretary of State for the

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Home Department to interfere if the Vestries did not discharge their duty in that respect.
LORD ABERDAREsaid, he wished to say a few words on the matter, because there was a mistaken idea abroad that preventable accidents in the streets were increasing. The fact was, that they had considerably decreased, because the number of those accidents had for several years remained about the same concurrently with a very large increase in the population. He wished their Lordships also to notice that the greater number of them did not happen in the most crowded and dangerous streets. The reason of this was that in such streets a larger force of police were employed to watch the vehicular traffic, and people were more careful. In Lambeth, in 1877, the number of fatal accidents was 1; in Whitehall, 1; in the district of St. James, 2; and in Westminster, 3; while in Stepney it was 15, and in Islington 10.
Motion (by leave of the House)withdrawn.

THE LATE PRINCE IMPERIAL—COURT MARTIAL ON LIEUTENANT CAREY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRURO, in asking Her Majesty's Government, Whether the Colonel Harrison, who was appointed to sit on the court martial to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of the late Prince Imperial, was the Assistant or Deputy Assistant Quartermaster General of that name—said, it would be well that the noble Lord (Viscount Bury) should give a distinct answer, and such as would satisfy the country and the Army; for, it had been stated in the papers, upon the best authority, that Colonel Harrison, whose name appeared as one of the court martial appointed to try Lieutenant Carey was the same Colonel Harrison who was the Assistant or Deputy Assistant Quartermaster General in South Africa; and, from what they had heard, he was the officer who was supposed to be responsible for the course which was taken by the late Prince Imperial. It was almost inconceivable, therefore, that the military authorities would place on the court martial an officer who was most responsible—he (Lord Truro) would not say for the disaster—but for the course
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  which was pursued on that occasion. It would be unbecoming in him to make any further comments upon the matter, until they had heard from the Under Secretary of State for War whether the Colonel Harrison on the court martial was the Assistant or Deputy Assistant Quartermaster General of that name.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, he had made inquiries respecting the information received at the War Office, and he had reason to believe that Colonel Harrison was not a member of the court martial.

PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING.
Message to the Commons for the Reports from the Select Committee of that House (of this Session and last Session), together with the Minutes of Evidence, &c.
House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Two o'clock.