THIRD READING. (Hansard, 15 July 1879)

§ EARL SPENCER
said, he wished, before the Bill left their Lordships' House, to refer to a matter of some importance which had occurred on the previous evening. On more than one occasion reference had been made to negotiations said to have passed between the Irish Government and certain influential personages in Ireland on the University question; and in "another place" Questions were put to, but no Answers were given by, Her Majesty's Government on the subject. His noble Friend the Leader of the Opposition in this House made some inquiry in this House with the same result. On Monday night his noble Friend on the Bench behind him (Lord Emly) alluded, with more distinctness than had hitherto been done, to the subject, and the noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government answered him. Now, he conceived this matter to be one of great importance to Ireland, and explanations ought to be given of what had passed. Very important negotiations appeared to have gone on, or were said to have been going on, in Ireland between the Irish Government and some influential members of the Roman Catholic party touching this University question. Surely, that was a matter of great interest and importance. The noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government, in reply to his noble Friend, described the whole matter as "a romance," and said that neither he nor his Colleagues had any knowledge whatever of the matter. For his part, he would like to know whether the noble Earl, who appeared to be taken by surprise on Monday night, had made it his business to ascertain if any such negotiations had taken place on the part of the Irish Government? It certainly seemed extraordinary that such important communications should have taken place, and should be entirely ignored.

§ THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD
I certainly was taken by surprise last night by the statement of the noble Lord (Lord Emly) respecting negotiations on the subject of University Education in Ireland; but, although I was taken by surprise, I had no hesitation whatever in expressing my own views upon the question, and informing the House that I then heard of these negotiations for the first time, and could say the same with confidence for my Colleagues. I have since had an opportunity of speaking personally to several of them, and can state that such negotiations are entirely unknown to us. I dare say, when the matter is inquired into, a great deal of misconception will be found to have arisen from the use of the word "negotiations"—that being the term employed by the noble Earl who has just sat down. It is possible that the Lord Lieutenant may have held conversations with those deeply interested in the question of Irish. University Education—he may have held conversations with Prelates of the Roman Catholic Church—as the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) himself must have had; but I have no authority for saying that such conversations have been held—it is only a suggestion of mine, to explain what the noble Earl himself seems to think there is no foundation for. I can only repeat what I said last night—that no negotiations to our knowledge have ever taken place on this subject; and if the Lord Lieutenant, for example, had held a conversation of any serious and formal character, he would probably have done me the honour of writing to me on the subject. But there is nothing of the kind; I cannot throw any light on the matter. I take it for granted that some conversations may have occurred, which have been described by the noble Earl by the somewhat important name of "negotiations;" but we have not sanctioned any negotiations, and we know of none that have been entered into on this subject.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
I must say that it seems rather extraordinary to hear the statement from the noble Earl at the head of the Government that no negotiations have been entered into. I should have thought this matter might have been cleared up by some communication with the Chief Secretary for Ireland, who is in this country. Is he en- 443 tirely ignorant of what the noble Earl has said on the subject—namely, that a proposal of an important character was made by the Irish Government, and that it was accepted by influential persons connected with the Roman Catholic Church? Has the noble Earl the Prime Minister heard that statement without communicating with any of his Colleagues in the Cabinet? I, of course, accept the assurance of the noble Earl; but still it appears to me an extraordinary, business.

§ THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD
I wish to correct a misapprehension on the part of the noble Earl who has just sat down. I have communicated—as I have already said—with my Colleagues in the Cabinet; but it should be remembered that the Chief Secretary is not a Member of the Cabinet; and when there is a rumour it is not for me to go and ask him whether it is true or not. It is for the authorities in Ireland, when such negotiations take place, to communicate with me, and they have not done so.

§ LORD EMLY
I think the noble Earl is wrong, when he says I used the word "negotiations" in reference to this subject on the previous evening.

§ THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD
What I said was, that the noble Earl who spoke first (Earl Spencer) made use of the word "negotiations."

§ LORD EMLY
The word I used was "proposal." What really happened was this. The Irish Government found out, from communication with persons of importance connected with the Roman Catholic Church, that they would be disposed to accept a certain proposal. I made no complaint against the Irish Government. I rose principally for the sake of saying what I ought to have stated yesterday, that, although the Irish Government had neither directly nor indirectly consulted me as to certain proposals made by them in the month of February on the subject of University Education to some leading Roman Catholics in Ireland, I had been shown a copy of these proposals within the last three weeks under no seal of secrecy. I could not understand the heat shown by the Prime Minister on the subject, for the course taken of ascertaining whether the Roman Catholics would accept a measure founded on these proposals was obviously a proper one, and, 444 as the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) had pointed out, according to precedent.