Lords Sitting of 27 February 1879

MINUTES.
SESSIONAL COMMITTEES—Standing Orders Committee on Private Bills, Committee of Selection on Opposed Private Bills, Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, appointed and nominated.
THE PLAGUE IN RUSSIA—SANITARY PRECAUTIONS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in asking a Question of his noble Friend the Lord President, of which he had given him private Notice, said, that at the commencement of the Session he had, as their Lordships would remember, put a Question to his noble Friend with respect to the plague in Russia, and received a reply stating what precautions had been adopted by the Government on the subject. That morning he had read a startling announcement in the papers, to the effect that the plague was no longer confined to the south-eastern districts of Russia, but, by a sudden bound, had made its way to St. Petersburg, and that 48 persons who were supposed to have been in contact with a person seized by it had been interned. It would be wrong to say anything on the subject which would have a tendency to create any agitation in the public mind; but the matter was one of a very serious character. The plague was of a deadly description, and there was a great difference between its existence in the province of Astrachan and its making its appearance in a capital, which one might say was within a few hours' journey of this country. He was concerned to read in the papers to-day that in a debate which took place upon this question in a learned Society yesterday—the Epidemiological Society—in the course of which a great deal of valuable information was given, and in which certainly nothing was said which could create a panic, a gentleman connected with a Government Department seemed to attach so little importance to the absence or presence of the disease in England that, speaking upon this subject, he went so far as to express
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  a hope that the Government would keep themselves clear of all the nonsense of quarantine. He fully admitted that it was quite competent for a medical gentleman to express any opinion he pleased on such a subject; but he ventured to think that anyone connected with a Government Department was bound to observe great caution, and to use the most guarded language in dealing with such a subject. No doubt, his object was to discountenance anything like a panic; but, at the same time, he was bound to attach due importance to it. He (the Earl of Carnarvon) now repeated what he had said upon a former occasion—that he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would take every precaution that lay in their power. He was sure, from what his noble Friend had said, that he considered it his duty to adopt every possible precaution. In the discussion which took place last night among the medical authorities at the learned Society to which he had referred, it was pointed out that our sanitary code was an excellent one, but that it had not as yet been brought into practical operation. Of course, it was for his noble Friend to consider whether it was possible to do so. If this newspaper report was true, the danger was very close at hand. Upon one point all authorities seemed to be agreed, and that was that distress, poverty, and want of food were conditions that were very favourable to the existence of the plague; and, unfortunately, these conditions existed at the present time to a higher degree than had been experienced for a very long time. He was sure that while his noble Friend would not give any undue importance to any rumours on the subject he would regard the subject as one deserving the attention of the Government; and therefore he hoped he would take every precaution that seemed desirable to prevent the introduction of the plague into this country.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in reply, said, that no official confirmation of the report which had appeared in the newspapers of the appearance of the plague at St. Petersburg had been received by Her Majesty's Government—in fact, he had received no information on the subject beyond what his noble Friend possessed. As to the speech to which his noble Friend had more particularly called attention,

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  as having been made by a gentleman connected with a Government Department at a meeting of the Epidemological Society, he hoped he should not be regarded as wanting in courtesy if he declined to endorse all the opinions of that gentleman—supposing him to have been correctly reported. From the statement of his noble Friend, that gentleman was reported, in the first place, to have said that he would not object to one or two cases of plague occurring here in order that they might be scientifically considered. If he had been correctly reported then, in his (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon's) humble opinion, he had much better not have said it—at any rate, he thought he would not find many persons to agree with him. His next statement was, that he hoped the Government would keep clear of the nonsense of quarantine. To that he could only say that quarantine in certain cases was part of the law of this country; and so long as it remained so, and he continued to fill the office of President of the Privy Council, he would see that the provisions of the law with respect to quarantine were effectually carried out. Scarcely a day passed without the subject of the plague coming before him in some way or other; and he could assure his noble Friend that the Government had been adopting, and would continue to adopt, all due precautions. He was in constant communication with the officers of Customs, and he was of opinion that the powers already possessed by the Privy Council were sufficiently strong.

SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR—DESPATCHES.—QUESTION.
EARL GRANVILLEasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government had received any further information from South Africa?
EARL CADOGAN, in reply, said, that the Government had received no despatches from the seat of war by the Asiatic, the steamer which arrived on Wednesday night; but that she did bring Government despatches from the Cape. It must be remembered that the Asiatic left the Cape only two days after the steamer which brought the first news of the disaster, and had been 27 days on her voyage to this country. Another steamer
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left on the 4th instant, and the substance of her despatches was forwarded by telegram from Madeira on Saturday last, the vessel itself might be expected to arrive this evening. Another steamer left the Cape on the 11th, and the Government hoped to receive telegrams forwarded by her from Madeira on Saturday next.

FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND).

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce, during the present Session, a Bill for the better management of Fairs and Markets in Ireland? The noble Viscount said, that of late years there had been a considerable increase in the practice of holding fairs and markets in small towns in the South and West of Ireland. Those fairs at present created a great deal of inconvenience; and if they were properly regulated, it would involve a certain expense in making proper provision for their management. The result of the want of proper accommodation was, that the fairs and markets were held in the high roads or the main streets of the small towns, and that practice caused great inconvenience to the community in general. Some attempts had been made in both Houses of Parliament to legislate upon the subject, but nothing had been done. He hoped that some attempt would be made this year to deal with this question, which was of more importance than their Lordships might, perhaps, think.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he could corroborate the statement of his noble Friend, that attempts had been made in both Houses of Parliament to deal with this subject. In the year 1854, in the year 1857, in the year 1861, in the year 1862, and in the year 1867, Bills were introduced either into this or the other House of Parliament for the purpose of dealing with that question; and the Bill of 1857, and that of 1861, went before a Select Committee. Moreover, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland appointed a Commission of Inquiry into the subject in 1852, and that Commission made its Report in 1854. The only successful attempt

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  to deal with the subject was by a very small Bill, which became law in 1868, enabling the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to alter the legal times and days for the holding of fairs and markets. The difficulties in legislating on this subject were great, owing to the private interests which were affected by it, and that was, no doubt, the reason why, up to the present time, there had been no legislation upon it. With the amount of Business that Her Majesty's Government had in hand, it was not intended —at all events, at present—to bring in a measure in either House of Parliament for dealing with this subject.

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Standing Orders Committee appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  D. Somerset.

  V. Eversley.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  V. Halifax.

  M. Winchester.

  L. Camoys.

  M. Lansdowne.

  L. Saye and Sele.

  M. Bath.

  L. Balfour of Burley.

  E. Devon.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  E. Airlie.

  L. Boyle.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Monson.

  E. Cadogan.

  L. Ponsonby.

  E. Belmore.

  L. Digby.

  E. Chichester.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Powis.

  L. Silchester.

  E. Verulam.

  L. De Tabley.

  E. Morley.

  L. Skelmersdale.

  E. Stradbroke.

  L. Belper.

  E. Amherst.

  L. Ebury.

  E. Sydney.

  L. Egerton.

  V. Hawarden.

  L. Hartismere.

  V. Hutchinson.

  L. Penrhyn.

  V. Hardinge.

  L. Wolverton.

  All petitions relating to Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Standing Orders Committee, unless otherwise ordered.

  OPPOSED PRIVATE BILLS.
  The Lords following; viz.,

  M. Lansdowne.

  L. Boyle.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  L. Skelmersdale.

  were appointed, with the Chairman of Committees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.

  OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.
  Select Committee appointed: The Lords following were named of the Committee:
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  Ld. Chancellor.

  E. Bradford.

  Ld. President.

  E. Granville.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  E. Kimberley.

  D. Saint Albans.

  E. Sydney.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  E. Redesdale.

  M. Lansdowne.

  V. Hawarden.

  M. Salisbury.

  V. Hardinge.

  M. Bath.

  V. Eversley.

  Ld. Steward.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  E. Devon.

  L. Ponsonby.

  E. Doncaster.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Tankerville.

  L. Skelmersdale.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Aveland.

  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.