Lords Sitting of 24 February 1879

THE PLAGUE IN RUSSIA—SANITARY PRECAUTIONS—QUESTION.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they will adopt the same precautions against the plague with regard to shipping coming to this country from Russian ports in the Baltic as have been adopted for shipping from the Black

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Sea; and whether they have placed restrictions on the importation of rags or other equally contagious merchandise from Russia?
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONreplied, that Her Majesty's Government did intend to take the same precautions in regard to shipping coming from Russian ports in the Baltic as had been adopted for shipping from the Black Sea as soon as it might be necessary to do so; but as at present all navigation in the Baltic was stopped, it was not necessary to issue the Orders with respect to the ports in the Baltic, as had been done in reference to those in the Black Sea. Her Majesty's Government had not placed restrictions on the importation of rags, nor did they think that at the present time there was any necessity for such a measure.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT, 1878—DAIRIES, COWSHED, AND MILKSHOPS ORDER, 1879.

  QUESTION.
  LORD COTTESLOEasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether it is the intention of the Government to include within the provisions of the Dairies, Cowshed, and Milkshops Order, 1879, cowkeepers and dairymen who use the produce of their dairies in the manufacture of butter and cheese for sale, not being sellers or purveyors of milk? The Order in question was generally felt to be unnecessarily stringent, and that it was also expensive to these who were brought within its scope.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was sorry to hear that there were such objections to the recent Order as those spoken of by the noble Lord. The Order had been issued in accordance with the 34th section of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act of last year. He could, of course, state what were the intentions of the Government in framing that Order; but it would be impossible for him to make an authoritative statement as to the particular cases that might from time to time be brought within the Order. Each case must rest on its merits. He would, however, state very distinctly that the intention was that those who sold butter and cheese and milk should be included within the Order. He did not think that
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  those who sold butter and cheese, but did not sell milk, would come within it, the object being to secure to the public a supply of pure and wholesome milk. The noble Lord appeared to think that the regulation was a stringent and expensive one. He did not see how it could be expensive; for if the noble Lord referred to the 56th section of the Act, he would see that no charge was made by the local authority for anything done under the Act, so that there was no expense whatever to anyone registered under the Order. He did not imagine that the noble Lord would wish that persons who sold milk should be allowed to keep their cowsheds and dairies in an unclean and unwholesome condition. All were aware of the prevalence of typhoid disease in this country, and it was recognized that that disease was much spread by the use of bad milk; and, therefore, he thought the Order must be regarded as one made in the interests of all consumers of milk, both high and low, throughout the country.

ARMY—THE REINFORCEMENTS FOR SOUTH AFRICA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRUROasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is true, as has been stated, that, after the men selected for service had been despatched from their several depâts and head-quarters, an Order was issued by the Horse Guards that men under twelve months' service should be excluded, and, if so, what was the date of that Order; and whether it is true that the 91st and 94th Regiments have received between 300 and 400 volunteers to complete their establishment for active service? The Question had a twofold character. First, it touched upon the Horse Guard administration; and, secondly, upon the system carried out by the War Office. He could not doubt that both those Questions would receive a full and complete contradiction; because, if they did not, they would lead to the most unfortunate inferences that at the Horse Guards there had been no careful consideration of these matters previously, and no Regulation in force as to the age, efficiency, and drill, and thorough instruction in the use of the rifle by the men sent out in such services, or their ability to with-

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  stand the effects of such a climate. It would lead to the inference, equally unfortunate, that very young men wore being sent out on an extremely hazardous service, and one requiring the utmost caution and care, but for which they had been selected without due care; and to the inference that the reputation of the regiments and of the officers commanding them, and the honour of the Army, were not sufficiently considered. Those inferences no one would be disposed to draw; and, therefore, he could not help thinking the first Question would meet with an unqualified negative. In reference to the next Question—Whether the 91st and 94th Regiments have received between 300 and 400 volunteers to complete their establishment for active service?—he would only say that we seemed to have adopted the system of universal incompleteness in order to adopt another system of indefinite expansion of establishment. It appeared that in the case of one of the regiments he had mentioned volunteers were received from no fewer than eight other regiments; so that they must have appeared on parade in motley. This fact implied that instead of having regiments we had nothing more than half-battalions—a state of things which was very undesirable. The system of expansion was admirable to a certain extent; but it would be well to consider whether five or six or seven regiments standing first on the list for foreign service should not be of full strength and completely equipped, so as to be capable of being transported to any part of the world where they were needed. This did not appear to have been the condition of any one of those regiments when this emergency arose. If there was any advantage in having an inspection of troops before they leave the country for foreign service, it ought to secure that the regiments should leave properly dressed and provided in other respects, and certainly not in the condition they had been led to believe those troops were in.
  VISCOUNT BURY: The noble Lord has put two Questions to Her Majesty's Government which I will answer seriatim. The noble Lord described, with regard to the first, three inferences, highly unfavourable both to the Horse Guards and the War Office, which he should draw if his Question were not answered
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  in the negative. I am glad to be able to relieve the mind of the noble Lord by telling him that no Orders such as he imagined, and upon which he has founded those inferences, have been issued by the Horse Guards. Therefore, I need not try to refute the inferences which he says he would have drawn had my answer been otherwise.
  LORD TRUROsaid, his Question was founded on what had appeared in The Times newspaper.
  VISCOUNT BURY: The noble Lord says he would have drawn certain inferences from a statement he found in a newspaper if I did not contradict the statement; but I entirely contradict the statement. With regard to the second Question of the noble Lord, it appears to have been framed with the view of finding fault with the scheme of the localization of the Army. But that scheme, having been fully discussed and agreed to by both Houses of Parliament, it is hardly to be expected that I should defend it or try to say anything in its favour. I will answer the Question of the noble Lord by saying that it is quite true that the 91st Regiment did receive 374 volunteers to make up their battalion, and that the 94th did receive 346 men to make up their number. By the localization scheme of the Army, the noble Lord must be aware that these regiments are linked with battalions serving abroad, that one-half of each regiment is at home, and the other half abroad, and that the regiment at home must keep up the regiment abroad. The 91st is linked with the 72nd, serving in India, which they had to keep up, so that, according to the scheme, when the 91st was ordered abroad they had to receive volunteers. The 94th is linked with the 89th, also serving abroad, and had to receive 346 men in order to raise its strength, and that in accordance with the provisions of the localization scheme, which, as I have already said, I am not now called upon to defend.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.