Lords Sitting of 18 February 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Supreme Court of Judicature Acts Amendment (11); County Courts (12).
AFGHANISTAN—THE WAR—DECLARATION OF GENERAL ROBERTS.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I wish to ask the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for India a Question of which I have given him private Notice. In the course of last month reports reached this country that General Roberts had issued a Proclamation annexing the territory of the Khurum Valley to India. I understand it has been stated on behalf of the Government in "another place" that they are not in possession of any information on the subject. I am anxious to ask if that is the case; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government have caused inquiries to be made as to what grounds there are for the report?
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: We have no information on the subject. A great many telegrams have been received; but there is nothing in them to indicate that such a transaction has taken place as that attributed to General Roberts. Of course, if such a thing had occurred, we should have taken the earliest opportunity of letting Parliament know.

PARLIAMENT—PUBLIC BUSINESS.

  QUESTION.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I should be glad to hear, for the convenience of your Lordships, what the course of Public Business is to be. I observe that the noble Earl the Prime Minister is not in his place; but if it is convenient for the noble Duke the Lord President to give the House some information on the subject I should be glad.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: I have not had an opportunity of consulting the Prime Minister, but I shall reply to the Question of the noble Earl opposite to the extent of my knowledge. In addition to the Bill on the subject of Bankruptcy which was
  1394
  introduced last night the Lord Chancellor will introduce this evening a Bill dealing with County Courts in England. I hope at an early day next week to introduce a Bill for amending the Medical Acts; and shortly after that, though not next week, I hope to introduce a Bill for the Conservancy of Rivers and on the question of Floods generally.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR,in presenting a Bill for amending the Supreme Court of Judicature Acts, said, the Bill was supplementary to the Bill which he laid upon their Lordships' Table the previous night. Its object was the creation of an additional Judge of the High Court of Justice and to incorporate the London Bankruptcy Court with the High Court of Justice. It was thought better to deal with these matters apart from the Bankruptcy Bill. He now begged to move that the Bill be read a first time.
  Bill for amending the Supreme Court of Judicature Acts — Presented (The LORD CHANCELLOR); read 1a and to be printed. (No 11.)

JURISDICTION OF COUNTY COURTS (ENGLAND) — COUNTY COURTS BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am about to lay upon the Table, and to ask your Lordships to give a first reading to a Bill to extend the jurisdiction of the County Courts in England. My Lords, the extension of the jurisdiction of the County Courts has been long under consideration. Various recommendations upon that subject were made by the Judicature Commission; and in the course of last Session three Bills were introduced into the House of Commons by private Members proposing extensions in different forms of the jurisdiction of County Courts. Those three Bills were referred to a Select Committee, and in course of the proceedings alterations were suggested in them and made on the part of the Government; but, owing to the state of Business, the one measure which sprung out of the three could not be proceeded with last Session. We

  1395
  have thought it desirable that the measure should be introduced this Session as a Government measure, and therefore I propose now to lay it on your Lordships' Table. I will not enter in any detail into the arguments as to the extension of jurisdiction, because I propose to move for the evidence taken before the Select Committee. Your Lordships will find that in the whole of this question, without any exception, there is a general recommendation in favour of the extension of jurisdiction. The extension which I propose is this:—To increase the jurisdiction of the County Courts from the sum of £50, at which it now stands, to the sum of £200; and we propose further that the plaintiff shall have the power of commencing actions in the County Courts for still larger amounts; but in that case there would be an absolute right on the part of the defendant, if he does not wish to have his cause disposed of by the County Court, to remove the case to the higher Courts. The Committee to which I have referred made some recommendations last year with regard to the increase of the salaries of the County Court Judges. Her Majesty's Government do not make any proposal on that subject in this Bill, because it remains to be seen what the effect of this change will be on the business of the County Courts. If it should have the effect—as it is very likely it will — of considerably increasing the amount of business to be transacted, it will be then for Parliament to consider whether some additional strength will not be necessary on the County Court Bench—whether it will not be necessary to increase the number of Judges. That would seem to be the more natural way to meet the difficulty than by an increase of the salaries of the present Judges.
  As I have referred to this subject, I have thought it right to put down on the Notice Paper to call your Lordships' attention to the state of business in the higher Courts, which is closely connected with the subject. Your Lordships have possibly seen statements made as to the state of the legal business at the present time, and I am anxious to put your Lordships in possession of some accurate information on the subject, which may tend to remove misconceptions which have arisen about it. I will take the different Courts, from the highest to the lower Courts, in order to inform your
  1396
  Lordships how the business stands in those Courts. Commencing with your Lordships' House, the appellate business is certainly in a most satisfactory condition. At the beginning of the present Session of Parliament, which, for legal business, was in November last, there were only nine cases left for hearing. Some more were set down in November and December; but in the November sittings 12 appeals were heard; therefore, there were no arrears at the close of the winter sitting. The state of the appellate business, therefore, is such that I am happy to say it would be in the power of the House, with regard to a certain number of appeals presented from Scotland, connected with the lamentable failure of a bank in that country, to advance those appeals and hear them without delay. Turning to the Judicial Committee, at the commencement of the sittings of the present year there were in that Committee only nine cases put down for hearing. I go to the Court of Appeal. At the commencement of the year 1878 there were 175 cases for hearing—that is, both causes and motions; and at the commencement of the present year there were 224 cases. Of course, the cases which were ready forbearing were all heard, and there were new cases which will be heard in the course of the present year. It cannot be said that there is an arrear of cases there which have been standing for any length of time. As to the Court of Chancery, the number of cases ready for hearing at the commencement of the present year was somewhat less than at the commencement of the preceding one. In January, 1878, there were 528 cases for hearing; in January, 1879, there were only 512; and I have the authority of the Master of the Rolls for saying that already a great number of these have been heard, and that, although new cases are being set down, there are no arrears in the Court of Chancery. With regard to the Probate Court, at the beginning of 1878 there were 33 cases for hearing of probates, and at the beginning of 1879 there were 34 cases. As to the matrimonial cases, there were 141 at the beginning of 1878, and 104 at the beginning of 1879. In the Admiralty Court at the beginning of 1878 there were 11 cases, and at the beginning of 1879 there were 12 cases. That

  1397
  is the state of business in all of the Courts excepting those Divisions generally called Common Law Divisions— Queen's Bench, Common Pleas, and the Exchequer. With regard to these Divisions, the first matter to which I wish to refer is the subject of Circuits, on which a good deal of observation has lately been made. Some time ago an opinion was expressed in the House of Commons in favour of having four gaol deliveries throughout the country in the course of the year; and there are at present, under recent arrangements, four Criminal Assizes. As to the expediency of that measure there has been a good deal of difference of opinion throughout the country. There is no doubt it entails much additional labour on the Judges, the jurymen, High Sheriffs, and others connected with the Assizes. On the other hand, it is certainly very difficult to say that the state of things which formerly prevailed was satisfactory—that prisoners should remain untried, and perhaps afterwards acquitted, for four or five, or sometimes six months together, and this at a time when, in one part of the country—at the Central Criminal Court—there is a gaol delivery every month. The additional tax upon the judicial time of an additional Criminal Circuit was not very great. The great argument against this Criminal Circuit is this:—It is said that criminal cases are so sifted before prisoners are committed for trial that, in almost all cases, the prisoners are convicted; that it is rare there is an acquittal; and that, inasmuch as the form of imprisonment before trial is less severe than after conviction, and as the length of time the person is in prison is always taken into account in the sentence, it is no hardship to remain in gaol a certain number of months before trial. That had considerable weight with me; but I have looked into the statistics of those who are tried and acquitted, and the result turns out to be something different from what I expected. I have taken the Return for the Criminal Assizes in last October and November, and I find that none of the prisoners then tried were out on bail—they were all in prison. I find 484 persons were tried, and of these 353 only were convicted, and 125 were acquitted. The proportion is one in four acquitted; and it cannot be said that the state of things would be satis-
  1398
  factory which would lead to the detention of these 125 for a great number of months without trial. This does not include those offenders who are out on bail; although, no doubt, it is hard for any persons charged with the commission of offences, even though such persons may have been admitted to bail, to be kept without trial for several months. The result, therefore, is that I think we shall never return to a system of having less than four gaol deliveries in the course of each year. This is a state of things to which we must make up our minds, and I cannot think that it will be so great an additional tax upon judicial time as that we shall not be able to meet it. Let me now pass to the question of the times at which the Circuits of the Judges should take place. We have, at present, four gaol deliveries in the course of the year; and along with them there are two Circuits upon which civil business is tried in all the counties of England, with the exception of some parts of Yorkshire and Lancashire, where civil business is taken at a third Assize in each year. With regard to the most convenient periods of the year for the trying of civil actions at Assizes, I have seen some complaints as to the times which have been adopted; but I cannot think that there was any choice in the matter, inasmuch as it would have been altogether unadvisable to have two Civil Assizes in the counties occurring within three months of each other; and they have therefore been placed, in June and July, and January and February. It has been urged against this that the result of the practice in the present year has been that nearly all the Judges have been absent from London from the middle of January until far on in February. This is quite true, and that thereby three Divisions in London have been weakened. But it must be remembered that if the learned Judges were not absent during the period to which I have alluded, they would have had to leave London about the middle of February and to have remained away until well on into March. The result of the present arrangement will be that the Judges, instead of returning to London at the end of March, will be back in their Courts near the close of February, and will sit there continuously until July, with the excep-

  1399
  tion of the Criminal Assizes about Easter, which will not withdraw more than about six Judges from town. Although, therefore, there has been for a short time a dislocation of the usual arrangements in the London Courts, the result will in the end be the same as it has been hitherto. I must not forget to add that there have been special circumstances which have added to the inconvenience, and the circumstances of Justices Lush and Stephen being withdrawn from judicial work by their labours as members of the Commission appointed to consider the Criminal Code —labours from which the country will, I believe, reap very great advantage, but the performance of which has, as I have said, withdrawn those two learned Judges for a time from the performance of their judicial functions. This, I hope and believe, is a circumstance not likely to occur again. With regard to the amount of civil business remaining to be disposed of in London and Middlesex, I find that on the 11th of January, 1878, there were 1,164 causes ready for trial as against 957 on the corresponding day of the present year. There were on Monday last 843 causes ready for trial; and I have the best authority for saying there is every reason to believe that between this time and the month of July all these causes will have been tried, in addition to any new ones which may arise in the meantime. Having said thus much, I should like merely to add—and I hope your Lordships will agree with me—that I think the statement I have made affords no ground for the demand that additional Judges should be appointed, or the statement which is sometimes made that the present judicial strength of the country is not equal to all the work that has to be done. In addition to the reasons which I have stated as accounting for the temporary delay in the transaction of legal business which has recently occurred, there has been the practice— a practice which, I hope, is now disappearing—of two or more Judges sitting in Courts where one only was necessary. This will effect a saving of judicial time; and I hope that the Bill which I have this evening laid on the Table with reference to County Courts will be the means of providing some further assistance, inasmuch as it will have the effect of withdrawing some of the more
  1400
  trifling—I might, perhaps, say frivolous —causes from, the Superior Courts. And if the proposal of Her Majesty's Government, which I explained to your Lordships last night, is accepted, the additional Judge appointed would, being a Judge of the High Court, be available to assist in discharging the work which devolves upon the Judges of the Superior Courts. In these circumstances, it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose any addition to the number of Judges in the High Court of Justice. They would not shrink from such a duty if they thought there was any occasion for it; but they do not think that any such occasion has at present arisen.
  The only other observation which I have to make is that I think the transaction of business in the Courts would be much facilitated if steps were taken to inform the Profession and suitors at the earliest possible period as to the times and places at which the various Judges in the Common Law Divisions would sit, and as far as practicable, as to the cases likely to come before each Divisional Court. I trust that in some way this object will be attained, and if it is I think your Lordships will have reason to think that in all respects the working of the Judicature Acts has been satisfactory. With this explanation, I will now only ask your Lordships to read this Bill a first time, and, in conclusion, say that if the Bill passes into law it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce, before the Session has advanced very far, a measure for consolidating the whole of the Acts of Parliament now in force relating to County Courts.
  Bill to extend the jurisdiction of the County Courts, and to amend the Acts relating or giving jurisdiction thereto —Presented (The LORD CHANCELLOR); read 1a and to be printed. (No. 12.)

SOUTH AFRICA — THE REINFORCEMENTS—CONDITION OF THE REGIMENTS.

  ADDRESS FOR A RETURN.
  LORD TRURO LORD TRURO moved—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return in a tabular form showing (1) ages, (2) length of service, (3) number of privates who have not completed

  1401
  their drill and musketry instruction, of the non-commissioned officers, corporals, and privates of 2nd-21st, 58th, 3rd-60th, Rifles, 91st, and 94th, at present under order for the Cape of Good Hope, as they embark for active service; also the number of men from each regiment left at home on account of physical unfitness, and the number drawn from other regiments to complete the battalions."
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that a Return in the form suggested by the Motion of the noble Lord would involve a large amount of labour upon the officers of regiments under orders for the Cape, and that, therefore, the Return would be prepared in the same form, or very nearly, as that which had been ordered in the other House of Parliament.
  Motion agreed to.

SOUTH AFRICA — THE REINFORCEMENTS—DISEMBARKATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether any special preparations have been made for the disembarkation of the reinforcements of troops and stores on their arrival at Port Natal? The noble Viscount said, he believed the existing harbour to be one of the most dangerous in the world for an operation of the kind. There had been many cases in which lives and stores had been lost in the attempt to cross the bar, and the mouth of the harbour was so narrow that two boats could not enter abreast. He trusted the Admiralty and the military authorities would make all possible arrangements beforehand for the reception and landing of the troops about to be sent out. On a future evening he would inquire, if it were inconvenient to answer the Question now, whether any measures had been adopted to prevent the importation of arms into Zululand? In former wars it was found that the weapons which destroyed our own troops had been once in English arsenals, and on one occasion all the muskets taken from the enemy were marked "Tower." It was only through Portuguese traders and our own countrymen that the warlike stores in such abundance in the hands of the Zulus could be obtained. Other European Powers adopted stringent measures on this subject, and he trusted that like measures
  1402
  would be adopted by us to prevent the supply of arms to our enemy.
  LORD ELPHINSTONEsaid, that, in answer to the first Question of the noble Viscount, a captain and staff of naval officers would leave London on Monday in the steamer Pretoria, charged with duties connected with the disembarkation of the troops and stores. Other steamers would start in a day or two with stores and a portion of the Army Hospital Corps with their equipment; and vessels of light draught would be provided capable of crossing the bar when the bar was in a fit state to be crossed—namely, when the water was at a depth of 12¼ feet. Arrangements had also been made with the different steamship companies trading to Natal for the use of their light craft — steamers, tugs, and lighters. These were on the spot and were constantly being used for the carriage of merchandize across the bar. They would be placed at the disposal of the military authorities, and would, no doubt, prove of the greatest value. In addition to this, transports were about to take out light draught boats for the conveyance of horses and stores. The steam pinnaces and cutters belonging to the men-of-war on the spot would also be available, and a steam pinnace was also being sent out from this country. In short, every available vessel had been already taken up and every possible precaution adopted. There was, no doubt, great difficulty in landing troops there. It was a very dangerous and exposed part of the coast, and frequently a heavy swell set in over the bar; but he might mention that the present was the most favourable time in the year for operations of that sort, and that the favourable season was likely to continue until the middle of April.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHintimated that he would put his Question as to the importation of arms into Zululand on Monday.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.