Lords Sitting of 8 August 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Public Health (Ireland) Act (1878) Amendment* (177); Registry Courts (Ireland) (Practice) * (178): Shipping Casualties Investigations Re-hearing* (179).
Committee—Report—Knightshridge and other Crown Lands* (166); Mungret Agricultural School, &c. * (174); Land Tax Commissioners' Names* (173); Municipal Elections (Ireland) * (169).
Report—Commissioners of Woods (Thames Piers) * (168).

THE INDIAN MUSEUM.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONrose to ask the Secretary of State for India for an explanation as to the intended dispersion of the Indian Museum, and to move for Correspondence between the Secretary of State and the Government of India on the subject. The subject to which his Question related had excited a very strong feeling not among individuals only, but among persons who represented various communities. The Indian Museum, which dated from a century back, owed its origin to the munificence of persons whose names were indissolubly connected with the history of that Empire. It was a collection highly valued, not only by those who admired it on historic and artistic grounds, and as illustrating in an admirable manner the industries and arts of India, but also by those who regarded it as being of importance in connection with the commercial interests not of this country only, but of India itself; and representations had come from several of the large manufacturing towns and Chambers of Commerce against the proposal to disperse it. The plan which Her Majesty's Government had in view with respect to the Museum had been indicated in "another place" a few nights ago; and it was further stated, but he hoped not with truth, that after several portions of it had been dispersed to the British Museum, to Kew, and elsewhere, a portion of it would be put up for sale. He would strongly protest against that as a step entirely unworthy of a great nation. If, indeed, it was necessary that the collection should be broken up, the plan indicated by the Government—except, of course, their intention to sell a portion—was, perhaps, the best; but he denied that the reasons alleged by the Government were a sufficient justification. It was alleged that, as at present constituted, the collection was not an object of much public interest. If the interest in a Museum was to be
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  measured by the number of visitors who went to see it, he must admit the allegation; but he thought that was not a correct way of estimating the matter. It might be that the place in which the collection was now lodged was not favourable for those who did take an interest in it. Again, the charge for admission might operate to prevent persons from visiting the Museum—because when it was in the hands of the old East India Company a large number of visitors used to go to see it. Then it was alleged that the collection would be more useful if scattered. Well, he was not prepared to say that there were not some portions of it which might with advantage be handed over for exhibition in other institutions; but that did not mean a dispersion of the whole collection. Objection was taken to the maintenance of the Museum on the ground of expense. This appeared to him to be straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. He was not opposed to a more economical management of the Museum—on the contrary; but he thought it would be better for India and England to divide the expenses than that the financial question should be settled in the way proposed. The question of maintaining the Indian Museum was connected with that of forming a great Colonial Museum. Up to the present time there had been difficulties in the way of the latter project; but he believed that before long it would be solved, and he had always thought that if a Colonial Museum were formed it and the Indian Museum should be combined. This led him to regret the proposition of the Government, and he would be glad to hoar from his noble Friend the Secretary of State for India that it had been abandoned.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, it could not be alleged that this was a question which had not boon thoroughly discussed, for it was a question which had been much under discussion during the last five or six years, and considered even long before that time. It was true the Government had arrived at a conclusion on this subject, and that various opinions had been stated against the plan of the Government. Now, if there was any prospect of an adequate building for the Indian Museum, the position of affairs would be very different. But there was not. There were several

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  buildings of a public character which were much more important and much more needed, but the erection of which had to be deferred because there were no funds available for the work. In that state of things it could not be expected that the Imperial Government would build an India Museum; and having regard to the objects in view it would be unjust to spend the money of India for such a purpose. His noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) declined to admit that the number of visitors to the Museum was a test of the interest taken in it; and, at the same time, he referred to the numbers who visited it when it was under the care of the East India Company. As a matter of fact, in former days, when the Museum was in Leadenhall Street, it was accommodated in dark rooms where it could only be seen with artificial light, and a great part of it was shut up in boxes. It was quite a mistake to suppose that in those days the Museum attracted the attention of great numbers. In his opinion, it would be far better, and more to the advantage of art students, if the collection were dispersed and placed among other collections of ethnological and natural objects, where more complete comparison could be made. Now, as a matter of fact, the present India Museum was not visited in large numbers, either by students or the general public. The only destination of the collection, as at present settled, was that the economic and botanic portions would be moved to Kew, where they would supplement a collection already there. This would be a great improvement, for the public would have free access to it, and the Museum was frequented by large numbers of visitors. The natural history collection in the Museum was so small that he need not speak of it. It was proposed, but had not yet been arranged, that the historical and ethnological collections should be handed over to the Trustees of the British Museum, where they would be invaluable to students. These points were under consideration, and would be carefully weighed before a conclusion was come to. The Council of India did not think itself a proper body to manage such an institution as the Museum, and there were not sufficient members constituting that body to take an interest in its various departments;
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  and it was clear that there would be an advantage in placing the collections under such skilled persons as were to be found at Kew and the British Museum. Moreover, there was the question of expense. For the last two years the expense had been £9,000 a-year, and the lowest sum estimated for the future was £7,000 a-year. Now, the Museum was kept up principally for the instruction and amusement of the people of England, and the Council did not think it right that the burden should fall exclusively on the resources of India. He would be deceiving their Lordships if he said that Her Majesty's Government had not made up their minds not to keep up the Museum in its present position. It was not fulfilling the purposes for which a museum of the kind ought to exist; but in the arrangements for a distribution of it Her Majesty's Government would have in view the displaying of all the articles it contained in the best way for the benefit of India as well as of this country.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, that he sympathized with the Secretary of State as to the reception which his endeavours to make some reduction in the Home Charges of India had met with. He (the Earl of Northbrook) would support Her Majesty's Government in economizing for India, even if they should propose to defray the salaries of the Secretary of State for India and the other officers of the India Office out of Imperial funds, as was the case with regard to the Colonial Office. He thought the transfer of the botanical collection to Kew, where it would be under the care of the Curator, might be advantageous, for the India Office would have the advantage of being able to consult the highest authorities on the botanical products of India. The arrangements with regard to the other portions of the Museum might, in his opinion, be safely left to the Secretary of State for India in Council.

TREATY OF BERLIN—THE RUSSIAN EVACUATION OF ROUMELIA AND BULGARIA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD CAMPBELL: My Lords, the Question which I have to put compels me, for a moment, to advert to such official declarations as have taken place,

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  one in the House, one out of it, upon the subject. About a week ago, the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs informed your Lordships that East Roumelia was no longer occupied by any Russian Army. Considering how long ago it should have been released, the statement was not at all astonishing. As to the remainder of the occupation, whether it had ceased, or when it was about to do so, no light was furnished at the moment. But that was not the last expression of the Government. On Wednesday, according to the public journals, the noble Earl the Prime Minister assured the Lord Mayor that no Russian soldier continued in the Dominion of the Sultan. But as a large mass of persons would hardly know whether or not Bulgaria can be included in the Dominion of the Sultan, a further and a less ambiguous statement is required to make it clear that the new Vassal Principality has passed beyond its former military tutelage. The Prime Minister may have only corroborated what fell from the Secretary of State, or may have added to it. Either interpretation might suggest itself. But there is another point to be attended to. It was distinctly contemplated in the 22nd Article of the Treaty of Berlin that the Russian troops should spend three months in traversing Roumania. The permission may not have been utilized: a different route may have been chosen. It is, therefore, indispensable to ask, Whether any Force is now between the Danube and the Pruth? In short, until we know whether by the 3rd of August the Russians had quitted all the territory occupied under the Treaty of Berlin, and not only a part of it, it is not possible to form a judgment on the prospects of the Eastern Question, or on the attitude of Russia to other European Powers, or on the mode in which the foreign policy of the Government has been conducted. The Question, therefore, will be seen by the House, whatever answer it elicits, to be required by the circumstances in which we find ourselves at present.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: In answer to the Question which the noble Lord has put on the Paper, I have to say that the information I gave to the House some days ago was that all the Russian Forces had quitted Eastern Roumelia somewhere about the 27th or 28th of July, and that they had quitted
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  Roumania a considerable time before. To-day we have been informed that the last Russian detachment quitted Rustchuk on the 14th of August. I daresay that the jealous mind of the noble Lord will see in the six hours' delay some serious breach of the Treaty; but I can assure him that, as far as our information goes, the whole of the territory occupied under the Treaty of Berlin and to be evacuated by the Russians has been evacuated, and there are no Russian troops now south of the Pruth.

ARMY (INDIA)—THE WORKSHOP SYSTEM.

  ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNrose to move for—
  "Copies of Correspondence between the Commander-in-Chief in India, the Government of India, and the War Department, in 1864 and 1865, with reference to the system of workshops, and their approval of the same; also, of any Correspondence regarding the good effects of the workshop system on the discipline of the British army in India; and, for Return of the amounts of money invested in the Soldiers' Savings Bank for three years preceding and three years following the institution of workshops."
  The noble and gallant Lord said, that the system of Army workshops, the Papers relating to which he solicited with their Lordships' permission, had proved itself to be very favourable to the efficiency, health, and discipline of the Army in India. The system—that was employment of well-seasoned and trained soldiers in theirtrades—remedied the diseases which were caused by continued inaction in intense heat, and supplied an army in the field with workmen who could provide for their most urgent wants huts, saddlery, drinking troughs, repair arms, and make engineering obstacles, &c. A "Reserve," formed of soldiers of 10 years' service in the workshop system, would about pay its own expenses; and, formed into battalions, might, at the shortest notice, reinforce an army in any quarter of the globe. He begged to take that opportunity to offer his excuses for having been absent, when, more than at any time, he should have wished to have been present—from the Vote of Thanks to the Army in India, for their late brilliant and important services in Afghanistan; but he came to the House too late, in consequence of not having received the

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  notice of the Vote of Thanks. He regretted it the more because two of the General Officers, Sir Donald Stewart and Sir Frederick Roberts, whose good fortune it was to be most engaged, were on his general Staff when Commander-in-Chief in India. It was impossible to speak too highly of their merits as officers, and of the very valuable assistance they rendered him while serving on his Staff. Nothing in a strategical point of view could be better than the very able manner in which Sir Donald Stewart, overcoming remarkable obstacles, made the turning movement from the line of the Indus, captured Candahar, and threatened Cabul; or the bold attack made by Sir Frederick Roberts on the most difficult pass of the Peiwar and its capture, effected by a most gallant and successful assault on the strong stockaded position on its left, and when the positions which were protected by it were found to be impregnable, by a third and unyielding attack, cut off the enemy's retreat, and made Sir Frederick Roberts master of this most important position. The Native troops, by their devoted bravery, divided the laurels won in Afghanistan with their gallant British companions in arms. He begged to tender his sincere congratulations to Her Majesty's Government for having made safe India's weak point, and for having converted a doubtful and dangerous neighbour into a good friend.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, there was no objection to the Return; but there must be some delay in producing it, because some of the Papers would have to be got from India.
  Address agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Four o'clock.