Lords Sitting of 3 April 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Courts of Justice Building* (44); Racecourses (Metropolis)* (45).
Select Committee—County Courts* (12), nominated.
Committee—Bankers' Books (Evidence) * (24).
Committee—Report—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation* (32).

NAVY—THE HEAVY GUN COMMITTEE.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, that before he put the Question of which he had given Notice, he desired to say a few words by way of explanation. In the discussion which arose some days ago on the explosion in the Thunderer the noble and gallant Lord who represented the Admiralty in that House (Lord Elphinstone) stated that the Government proposed to re-constitute the "Heavy Gun Committee," to refer to it all questions arising out of the explosion; and he understood the noble and gallant Lord also to intimate that the Committee would consider questions generally relating to improvements in gunnery science. Now, on the formation of the Committee very much depended. Was it to be an impartial, unprejudiced tribunal, free from bias of manufacturing departments? Was it to have a full proportion of naval officers upon it? They were deeply interested in the decision arrived at. From 1857 to 1868 we had a very fair and impartial Ordnance Select Committee, and it was under their superintendence all the great gun experiments were made between rival competitors, and by which we had obtained our present construction and system of ordnance, In 1868 Lord Hampton, at that time Sir John Pakington, came to the conclusion that as the great wave of invention had somewhat slackened, and as the Committee had arrived at certain definite conclusions on construction and rifling, the time had arrived when they might accept the general question of construction as settled, and proceed to carry out the armament of our forts and ships on the principles thus laid down. Having come to this determination, the Committee was dissolved, and General Lefroy was appointed a sort of dictator to carry out the general armament on this definite system. Subsequently, when Lord Northbrook's Committee sat, this office was merged in that of Director General. The cadre of the old Ordnance Select Committee was, however, retained, and the secretary and two or

  247
  three officials were attached to carry out, with the assistance of officials from the gun factories or other departments, acting in small committee, such experiments as might, from time to time, be found necessary. Now, he had no wish to question the decision which was arrived at when the old Ordnance Select Committee was abolished. It was most desirable at that time to proceed with a general system, and perhaps it would have been difficult to have done so while experiments on a great scale were being carried out. But, since that date, 10 years had passed away, and gunnery knowledge had not stood still. Enormous changes had been effected, and it was impossible to shut their eyes to the great artillery improvement which had been carried out by private manufacturers, especially during the last two years, which had virtually revolutionized the whole system, and rendered the reappointment of such a Committee a necessity. He would glance for a moment at what these improvements really were. About two or three years ago it was discovered that the pressure in the powder chamber could be regulated so as not to exceed certain limits, first, by increasing the space occupied by the cartridge; and, second, by modifying the nature of the powder, so that it should burn more slowly. Directly this was ascertained, it became possible to increase the charge very largely, and with it came the necessity of lengthening the gun. Two or three times the amount of powder could now be used, and the general result was that with this new type of gun, chambered and lengthened, they could obtain double the power. The enormous leap in advance which this had made in our gunnery science could best be shown by quoting two or three cases. They had obtained very high velocities without any additional strain. The new 6-inch gun, 4 tons weight, had greater penetrating power than the old 8-inch, 9 tons weight, and almost equalled the old 9-inch, 12 tons weight. The new 8-inch, 11 tons weight, was much more powerful than the old-service 25-ton gun, and equalled the old-service 35-ton gun. The old-service 12-inch 35-ton gun would go through the turret of the Thunderer or the Peter the Great at 500 yards; the new 8-inch of 11 tons could do exactly the same. The old-service 18-ton gun
  248
  could penetrate Hercules armour at 500 yards, and the breastwork of the Thunderer and Devastation; the new 8-inch 11-ton gun could do the same at 2,000 yards, and yet the gun weighed 5½ tons less. These alterations had also opened up the question of breech-loaders. Now that they were able to regulate the pressure in the chamber of the gun, nearly all the old objections to breech-loaders had vanished, and with the increased length—26 calibres instead of 16 calibres—they must in turret and in broadside ships have breech-loaders. It was not only the great penetrating power which we obtained, there was another advantage of most material importance. The great additional velocity which was got, going up to 2,100 feet in a second, enabled us to fire point blank up to a long range, and the shot was far more likely to strike an adversary, because the path of the projectile was less curved, and therefore less likely to pass over. This at sea, with ships rolling about, was of the utmost importance. These alterations were, he apprehended, as great as the change from smooth-bore to rifle guns. It was no question of construction, but merely of pattern and length. If this was the state of the case, let them see what was being done towards adopting these improvements. He believed he was correct in saying that the gun factories had not made any of these new type of guns, except two 80-ton guns, and that at the present moment the Navy was still being supplied with guns of the old pattern, which were, as he had already shown, of half the power of the new. Now, he was the last person who would wish to say one word against the gun factories, or would desire to set up any jealousy or friction between the War Office and the Admiralty. General Young husband, who was now at the head of the gun factories, was second to none in ability and in his determination to do his duty. He was quite aware that the gun factories were admirably managed, and that the highest credit was due to all the officials concerned for the manner in which their work was carried out. It was quite clear also that, with the enormous number of forts and establishments scattered about, it was essential that there should be interchange-ability of patterns and ammunition; and therefore they were bound to look with the most jealous eye on any alteration

  249
  which would throw confusion into this vast array of stores. But with these difficulties constantly before them, it seemed to him the very reason why the officials should not be the judges as to what improvements were necessary. What he did blame was the system which made the Navy dependent on the War Department. In the Army there was no urgent haste in altering patterns of heavy ordnance for forts; but in the Navy it was of the most imperative importance that every improvement should be at once adopted. He understood that at least three foreign Governments were at this moment being supplied with these guns of the newest types for their Navies from a private firm which was on the most intimate and friendly terms with the Government. In the Navy we spent vast sums—£300,000 and £500,000—in building our ships, which, say what we would, were only gun carriages. In former days our large ships carried 120 guns, and then the gun element was not of so much importance; but now our largest ships carried only four guns, and therefore it was of vital importance that those guns should be the most efficient it was possible to obtain. Let their Lordships think for one moment of the enormous change in the offensive power of a ship like the Thunderer, if by adopting these alterations they could actually double the effect of her guns and obtain double the penetrating power. Let them remember that this was no mere inventive theory, but it was an actual ascertained fact. If we were to carry out any of these great improvements, it was imperative that the Select I Committee to be re-appointed should be; based on the lines of the old Select Committee. At present the only Body; responsible for these matters, and who had to consider them, was what was termed the Heavy Gun Committee, which was a War Office Departmental Committee composed entirely of the heads of the Gun Department, and on which the Navy was entirely unrepresented. It was true that on a branch of their work there were two naval officers—Captain Bridge and Captain Bruce; but they had only to deal with the 80-ton gun question. On the general subject the Navy was utterly and entirely unrepresented. Now, could this be satisfactory? We had a great Service—whose principal weapon of offence was the gun, whose
  250
  direct interest it was, in every conceivable way, to have the best gun that money could procure—left in the consideration of these vital points dependent on another Department. In the Navy ships had now so few guns that inter-changeability of stores was not so material a point as on shore, and a ship could be very much self-contained. He contended that the Navy had so deep an interest in the gun question, that it must be fully represented on whatever Committee was formed, and, beyond and above that, he thought the Admiralty must be perfectly free. As it was, with machinery and steam engines, the highest skill this great mechanical nation could call forth should be placed at the disposal of the Admiralty. On the Committee he hoped a naval architect would be appointed, in the same manner that Royal Engineers were thought necessary. Experiments against iron plates were made, and questions as to how guns were to be carried arose; and it was most important that the naval architect should be kept fully aware of all that went on, and able to advise and assist. This was a question of the most vital interest to the Navy. The noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) the other day spoke in noble and generous language of the manner in which the officers and men behaved after the terrible explosion on the Thunderer, amid that darkened scene of horror and desolation. He went on to say, that with the terrible dangers our men encountered externally from shot above and torpedoes below water, it was to be hoped that no pains would be spared to save them in future from internal danger and from explosions. The best way to effect that was by appointing a thoroughly competent tribunal to look after? He matter; and, with the vast stake the Navy had in the question, he did hope the noble and gallant Lord who represented the Admiralty would be able to say that in future they would not be unrepresented. The noble Lord concluded by asking—
  How many members the re-constituted Heavy Gun Committee is to consist of, and what will be the proportion upon it of naval officers:
  Whether a naval architect will be put upon it:
  Whether any officers identified with inventions or novel proposals submitted to its consideration, or any officer con-

  251
  nected with any manufacturing department, will be appointed or retained upon it:
  Whether the Committee will be directed to make periodical reports; and whether such reports will be communicated either to the public or to those persons directly affected by them within a reasonable lapse of time?
  LORD ELPHINSTONEsaid, he did not propose to follow the noble Lord through the various subjects which he had brought forward, but rather to reply to the Questions put as they stood upon the Notice Paper. The Heavy Ordnance Committee would be re-constituted, and it was intended that it should consist of seven members—two Naval officers, one officer of the Royal Engineers, three officers of the Royal Artillery, one officer of the Indian Artillery. These officers would act immediately under the orders of their own respective Departments—the Naval members under the Admiralty, to whom they would be answerable; the Military members under the War Office, to whom they would be answerable. If at the Admiralty it was considered desirable that any particular experiments should be carried out with any particular gun, they would instruct the Naval members of the Committee accordingly, who would bring the matter before the whole Committee, where it would be discussed, and the nature of the experiments would be determined on; and the War Office would act in the same way. To this Committee, in the first instance, would be referred the questions now before the Heavy Gun Committee, and the question of breech-loading. The Admiralty had not decided as to what officers they would place upon this Committee; but they would be selected as men of the broadest views, irrespective of rank, men specially competent to advise, and men who, although not naval architects themselves, would be, at the same time, qualified to form and express an opinion upon all questions in which naval architecture might form a prominent feature—as, indeed, it must do, a ship being, to a very great extent, as described by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Sudeley), a floating gun carriage. For this reason, it was not intended to appoint a naval architect as a member of the Committee. The Government certainly would not feel bound
  252
  to refuse to employ a man because he might have turned his attention to invention. He thought their Lordships would agree with Her Majesty's Government that it would be very unwise to say to a man—"No, we cannot employ you. You are an inventor." Why, everyone who turned his attention to any particular subject was an inventor. An inventor was a man who endeavoured to suggest improvement; and it seemed to him that was the very man to have upon a Committee of this kind—though, at the same time, it was not desirable that any member should have a personal or pecuniary interest in any of the great inventions connected with heavy ordnance, or, indeed, any personal interest in any particular invention. With regard to the latter part of the Question, it was intended that the Committee should make their Reports direct to the Admiralty and to the War Office; and they would consider how far it might be for the public benefit that these Reports should be made public. It was obvious that it would not be desirable that all Reports should be considered public property; for their Lordships must remember that information given to the public was not given to the public of this country only, but to the whole world. For instance, suppose some grave defect was found in our mode of arming our ships or our forts. It would not be desirable that we should publish that fact to the world—especially when it might take years to remedy that defect. And, in the same way, if we discovered some great improvement that could be applied either to the manufacture or to the working of our guns—or, indeed, to any other matter connected with heavy ordnance—it would be most undesirable that we should at once proclaim that discovery upon the housetop, and so give the benefit of it to the world. The question, therefore, of making the Reports public would rest entirely with the Admiralty and the War Office. The inventors whose inventions were under investigation and trial were, of course, in a different position; they were "persons directly affected," and they would probably be made aware of the Report of the Committee, although the public in general might not be. He had so far merely attempted to give a rough outline of what it was proposed the duties of the

  253
  re-constituted Committee would consist of. There might be—and he need scarcely say there probably would be—many matters of more or less importance that would have to be considered. The authorities were fully alive to the great importance of the subject; and in reconstituting this Committee they would spare no pains to make it as good, as effective, and as valuable as possible.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that he understood the object of the appointment of the Committee was that the Naval Profession and the public at largo should be able to entertain a well-grounded confidence in the large guns in use in the Navy; and that another object in view was to inquire generally into the question of the construction of our heavy armaments, with a view to ascertain whether a better class of guns than were now in use could be provided. The deplorable explosion on board the Thunderer, to which he (the Duke of Somerset) called the attention of the House the other day, showed how important it was that the manufacture of our guns should be looked into, and he alluded to this question of guns because he had had experience of the former breech-loading guns, and knew how defective they were. But with the experience they had since had of improvements in construction, he was inclined to think that a better class of breech-loaders could now be made than the guns at present in use, which he confessed he believed to be defective in the metal, in the mode of rifling, and in construction generally. This opened a large subject of inquiry; and, therefore, what he desired to know was, whether the Committee that was to be appointed would be empowered to re-open the whole question of the construction of the guns now in use in the Navy—in fact, whether it would be competent to the Committee to begin the work de novo?
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he could assure the noble Duke that the Government intended the investigation should be of the most thorough and searching character.

SOUTH AFRICA—TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH THE GATE.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWNasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colo-
  254
  nies, What progress has been made towards carrying out telegraphic communication with the Cape of Good Hope?
  EARL CADOGAN,in reply, said, that as the negotiations between the Treasury and the Eastern Telegraph Company and the Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company were still in progress, he could not make any statement further than to say that the moment the negotiations were completed he would lay the Papers relating to it on the Table of the House.

TREATY OF BERLIN TURKEY AND GREECE—THE NEGOTIATIONS.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE,in asking the Question of Her Majesty's Government of which he had given Notice, with reference to the progress of the negotiations between Turkey and Greece for the rectification of the Frontier, said, he knew that there were not at the present moment sufficient materials before their Lordships to enable them to enter on a full discussion of the subject, nor was his Question intended to provoke one. But it seemed to him that, before their Lordships separated, it would be convenient to ask the noble Marquess the Foreign Secretary whether he was able to give them—oven in the most general terms—some information with regard to the progress of the negotiations between Turkey and Greece. Their Lordships would remember that there was a stipulation in the 13th Protocol of the Treaty of Berlin for the rectification of the Frontier of the two countries. It was provided by the Treaty that the future boundary between Turkey and Greece should be left to be decided by the two countries; but it was suggested that, in the event of their being unable to agree, the Great Powers which were represented at the Congress should offer their mediation in the matter. This was reserved as a right to those Great Powers. Nine months had elapsed since the Treaty of Berlin was executed, and during that period we had had no official information as to the progress of those matters. There was the greatest unanimity on the part of the Plenipotentiaries that Greece should receive some accession of territory. That was proposed, in the first instance, by the Plenipotentiary for

  255
  France, but it was agreed to by the other Plenipotentiaries. If he remembered rightly, the noble Earl the Prime Minister expressed the opinion that the existing Frontier was a danger and a disaster, not only to Greece, but to Turkey as well; and he expressed a conviction that the Sultan would be induced to accept an equitable solution of the Frontier question. What he now wanted to ask the noble Marquess was, whether he could hold out any hope that an equitable solution of the question was approaching? They had no official information with regard to the matter; but there had been disquieting rumours which did not point to the negotiations proceeding satisfactorily. He had read in one report that the Turks were fortifying positions on the Greek Frontier. Anyone who had watched the course of events in Eastern Europe must feel that if this question was to be settled, it could only be by the resolute guidance of the Great Powers. He therefore hoped that, if Turkey and Greece had not been able to come to terms, Her Majesty's Government would use their endeavours to induce the Sultan to comply with the wish of the Great Powers as expressed at the Congress of Berlin. The noble Marquess then asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he is able to give the House any information with regard to the progress of negotiations between Turkey and Greece for the rectification of their Frontier in accordance with the 13th Protocol of the Berlin Congress; and whether, if those negotiations have not yet resulted in a satisfactory settlement, Her Majesty's Government consider that the time has arrived for the mediation contemplated by section 24. of the Treaty of Berlin?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, no doubt the noble Marquess is right in saying that negotiations have been going on between Turkey and Greece, in accordance with the Article of the Treaty of Berlin, for several months. He seems to think that a long time has elapsed without a settlement having been arrived at. According to my experience of Oriental negotiations, I should be inclined to differ from him on that point, for I have known matters of far less importance take considerably more time. But whether any equitable solution is at hand or not must, of course, depend very
  256
  much on the meaning which each party attaches to these words. Turkey, I believe, is prepared to admit that the present Frontier is not satisfactory; but what precise line is to be adopted for the future is a point on which, up to this moment, the two Powers have not been able to agree—and, undoubtedly, at the present time the prospect of a settlement is not very near. It is not possible for me to go into very close details on the subject, because it is at this moment a matter of communication between the Powers, and I might be prejudicing the negotiations if I were to make any public statement going very minutely into the matter. I shall merely say that the attitude of Her Majesty's Government is precisely that which they adopted at Berlin. It is in no respect changed. We continue to advise the Porte; but whether our advice should take the form which the noble Marquess suggests, of "resolute guidance," is a point respecting which I should rather wait for a more clear definition of what is meant by the term before I answer the Question. Advice is one thing; but "resolute guidance" smacks of salt-petre. I am not prepared to say we have arrived at that point yet. I shall only say that our intention is a sincere one to bring about a settlement of this matter; and, in my judgment, the chances of a satisfactory settlement will be greater when the present pressure on another Frontier of Turkey shall have been removed, and that Greece rather than Turkey gains by the delay.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, he did not see what difficulty there could be in defining what would be an equitable settlement between Turkey and Greece. How was it possible that Her Majesty's Government could expect to see the Treaty of Berlin carried out when, with cruel cynicism and contempt for engagements to which they themselves were more or less a party, they were prepared to see a settlement of the Frontier between Turkey and Greece put off till "the present pressure was removed from another Frontier of Turkey."
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think the noble Marquess could not have exactly heard what I said. I said that Her Majesty's Government now entertain precisely the same opinions which they professed at Berlin.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he did not think the explanation of the noble Marquess quite satisfactory. He presumed that at the Congress it was understood that only a reasonable period should be allowed for those results. The question of the rectification of the Turco-Persian Frontier had lasted a quarter of a century; and he believed it was not yet settled. If the noble Marquess meant that the negotiations between Turkey and Greece were to be of the same character and duration, then it would not be too much to say that the Treaty of Berlin would be a mere mockery.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, Greece has at no time treated the recommendatory intimations in the Treaty of Berlin with regard to its Frontier as at all binding on the Signataries to that Treaty. The noble Marquess who sits on this side of the House (the Marquess of Bath) was not justified in assuming the contrary. All that was intended by the notice given by the Plenipotentiary for France as to what would be the materials of a satisfactory settlement was accepted by the other Powers in that spirit; and nearly at the end of the Congress, when the President wound up the subject which has been noticed to-night in this House, he particularly stated that no Power was bound by the suggestion which had been made by the French Plenipotentiary, and certainly not Turkey. It was a suggestion which was to guide Turkey as to the general feeling of the Signataries to the Treaty. The noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) must not suppose that in the nine months which have elapsed nothing has been done. On the contrary, there have been frequent communications, suggestions, and proposals made both to Turkey and to Greece in the spirit of the Treaty of Berlin; and I am not at all prepared to say that there has been any fault on the part of the Government in the matter. There are four or five questions as regards boundaries which are still under discussion, and the noble Earl must know that the settlement of one must, in a certain degree, forward the settlement of another. All I can say is that there has been no extraordinary delay in the negotiations which have occurred on the subject of the Greek Frontier. They have engaged the early and frequent attention of the
  258
  Signatary Powers. I myself do not take at all a gloomy view of the subject. I think there are modes by which a fair adjustment may be made, by which Greece may obtain that to which, under all the circumstances, she is entitled, and which the Porto may grant without any feeling of humiliation on its part, or without consenting to a settlement injurious to the interests of Turkey.

  COURTS OF JUSTICE BUILDING BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Courts of Justice Building Act, 1865—Was presented by THE LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1ª. (No. 44.)

  COUNTY COURTS BILL [H.L.]
  Select Committee on: the Lords following were named of the Committee:

  Ld. Chancellor.

  L. Hatherley.

  M. Lansdowne.

  L. Penzance.

  E. Powis.

  L. Selborne.

  E. Morley.

  L. Winmarleigh.

  V. Cranbrook.

  L. Blackburn.

  L. Brodrick.

  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.