Lords Sitting of 24 May 1878

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Viscount Melville, after the death of his brother; The Lord Grantley, after the death of his great-uncle.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Acknowledgment of Deeds by Married Women (Ireland) (87).
Committee—Report—Medical Act, 1858, Amendment (44–90); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) * (67); Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Birmingham, &c.) * (68).
Third Reading—Provisional Orders (Ireland) Confirmation (Dungarvan, &c.) * (65); Inclosure Provisional Orders * (64); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders Confirmation* (82), and passed.

PARLIAMENT—THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.
THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELDsaid, it might be for the convenience of their Lordships he should announce that for the Whitsun Holidays he would propose the adjournment of the House from the 7th to the 17th June.
MEDICAL ACT, 1858, AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 44.)
(The Lord President.)

COMMITTEE.
Moved, "That the House be now put into Committee on the said Bill."
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONwished to speak as to the course he proposed to ask the House to take with reference to this Bill. He had put on the Paper one Amendment of some importance, and there were other Amendments which also would require some attention. He therefore thought he should be consulting the convenience
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of the House if he asked their Lordships to go into Committee pro formâ only, in order that the Bill might be re-printed with the proposed Amendments and the discussion taken on a future evening. When introducing the Bill, some time ago, he said he would allow a considerable period to intervene between the second reading and the Committee, because, as the measure affected the Medical Profession and the public in so large a degree, he was anxious that ample time should be given to both to consider the provisions of the Bill, and that he might have the advantage of knowing the opinions formed with respect to them, so that he might put the Bill in as satisfactory and perfect a state as possible. The Medical Profession readily responded to his request. He had had the pleasure of receiving various deputations on the subject, and he had letters from medical men from all parts of the country. Their Lordships would remember that, when asking for leave to bring in the Bill, he expressed his opinion that the best mode of dealing with the question would be to establish a uniform minimum standard of examination for those who sought to enter the Medical Profession, and he expressed his concurrence in the opinion that a Conjoint Examining Board for each part of the United Kingdom was desirable with the view of establishing such a standard. But he also told their Lordships that there was a difficulty in the way of a conjoint scheme, which difficulty was raised chiefly by the Scotch Universities, and consequently that at the time he did not see his way to introducing a clause rendering a Conjoint Board compulsory. But the representations which from time to time had been made to him both before and after the second reading from the several corporate and other bodies interested, made it clear to him that nothing but a conjoint scheme would be satisfactory, and in an endeavour to promote it he ventured on what he thought might be an acceptable compromise. He suggested that it should be made compulsory on all the Medical Corporations of each of the three divisions of the Kingdom to form a conjoint scheme, leaving it to the various Universities to come in if they thought fit. He had had his proposed compromise circulated through the country, and in answer to it he had had representations from

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various bodies. The various Medical Corporations in England condemned his proposal on the ground that nothing short of a Conjoint Board to include the Universities would be satisfactory. The English Universities took the same view; the representations from Ireland were to the same effect; and from various Medical Societies in the Metropolis, who treated the question in a very impartial manner, he had received representations in the same direction. He was bound to say that the opinion of those various bodies and societies was opposed to his compromise, and he would not be dealing honestly with the House if he did not say that he could not resist the arguments they had brought under his consideration. Desiring to put the Bill into a shape in which it would be of real advantage to the Medical Profession and satisfactory to the whole country, he had reluctantly come to the conclusion that he must ask their Lordships to allow him to amend it so as to make a Conjoint Board for each of the three portions of the United Kingdom compulsory. The chief opposition to such a proposal came from the Universities of Scotland; but he hoped that his endeavours in the way of compromise would show them that he had, as far as possible, deferred to their views. When he found that he could bring no argument against a compulsory joint scheme, he would not be acting honestly if he did not make it a part of the Bill. He hoped, therefore, the Universities of Scotland would appreciate his motives, and see that he was doing what he believed would be best for the Medical Profession and the public generally. With this explanation, he would ask their Lordships to go into Committee pro formâ.
VISCOUNT POWERSCOURTbegged to congratulate the noble Duke on the conclusion at which he had arrived. He was convinced that only a Conjoint Examining Board for all the three Kingdoms would be satisfactory.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that having from the first pointed out that a blot in the measure was the absence of the clause, which the Lord President now proposed to introduce, he begged to express his thanks to his noble Friend. He believed that the course proposed by his noble Friend was the most desirable in the interests of the public; and he hoped that the Universities of Scotland
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would, in the interest of the public, withdraw their opposition to it. But, however that might be, he felt convinced that his noble Friend had adopted the right course.
EARL GEANVILLEalso congratulated his noble Friend the Lord President on the change in his determination. Having accompanied a deputation from the University of London to his noble Friend, he could bear testimony to the patient attention with which his noble Friend listened to the representations made to him by that deputation. He believed that the change which his noble Friend proposed to make in the Bill would prove of great advantage to the public and the Medical Profession.
House in Committee accordingly; Bill reported, without Amendment; Amendments made: Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House, and to be printed as amended. (No. 90.)

CRIME IN IRELAND—RETURNS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEasked the Lord President of the Council, When the Return as to crime in Ireland, ordered to be made by the House of Lords on the 12th of April last, would be laid upon the Table of the House?
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, the Return which was ordered by their Lordships' House was of a very voluminous character, and the materials were very troublesome to collect, and, when collected, required much time to put them in order. He could only say that no loss of time had occurred since the noble Lord moved for the Return, and as soon as it was ready it would be laid on the Table of the House.

  ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEEDS BY MARRIED WOMEN (IRELAND) BILL.
  (The Earl of Belmore.)

  (NO. 87.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF BELMORE,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, the terms of the English and Irish Acts for the Abolition of Fines and Recoveries, with reference to the acknowledgment of deeds by married

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  women were identical. The English and Irish Courts of Common Pleas respectively made Rules, as they were empowered to do by the Acts. These Rules were identical. They made it suffice if one of the Commissioners was a disinterested party. Acting on the faith of the Rules, many deeds had been executed before Commissioners, where one was an interested party. The question arose in England as to whether such an acknowledgment was not invalid, and the Rule itself ultra vires. The arguments, &c., were to be found in the Report of the case, In re-Ollerton, 15 C.B. Before judgment was given, an English Act was passed to validate such acknowledgments—17 & 18 Vict. This Act was never extended to Ireland. The same question had arisen in this country. If the proposed Act were not passed—(1.) A great injustice would be done in the particular instance in which the deed was executed on the faith of the Rule of Court. (2.) There would remain the absurdity of having the law in the two countries different on this important point. (3.) There was no saying how many deeds and titles might depend upon such acknowledgments. He (the Earl of Belmore) need only say, in addition, that this Bill, although introduced by a private Member into the House of Commons, had the cordial approval of Her Majesty's Attorney General for Ireland.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had no objection to the Bill being read a second time, as before the next stage of the Bill was taken he should have an opportunity of examining it. He would not, therefore, oppose the present stage.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.