Lords Sitting of 21 May 1878

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Middleton, after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders Confirmation* (82).
Committee—Contagious Diseases (Animals) (76–88).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (Abingdon, &c.) * (83); Public Works Loans* (81).
Third Reading—Adulteration of Seeds Act (1869) Amendment (79), and passed.

NAVY—FOUNDERING OF H. M. S. "EURYDICE."—QUESTION.
EARL DE LA WARRasked the noble Lord who represented the Admiralty in that House, three Questions of which he had given him private Notice—namely, What further preparations are being made for raising the "Eurydice;" what was the total number of bodies that has been recovered up to the present time; and whether there is an efficient boat and crew on board the vessel moored near the wreck, to be sent out if required to pick up bodies which may come to the surface?
LORD ELPHINSTONEreminded their Lordships that the original intention
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was to raise the Eurydice by placing two lighters, one at bow and one at stern, which were to be attached by hawsers at low water. It was hoped that as the tide rose the vessel would rise with it. The great difficulty had been found to result from the strength of the tides. The Eurydice was in 12 fathoms of water, across the tide, and, as the latter ran generally five to six knots, it had been found almost impossible to keep the lighters in position—especially in the unfavourable circumstances of the weather. To give them an idea of the difficulties which the working parties had had to contend against, he might refer to the official report of operations since the 7th.
"From the 7th to the 11th, divers down seven to eight hours; since the 12th only down once for a short time, but too much sea to work; 15th, rolling truly dreadful, since which no diving; gale."
What was now intended was this—to moor four additional lighters immediately over her—divers would be employed in placing toggles in ports on each side; to the toggles would be attached steel hawsers, and these would be brought to the four lighters, which, in addition to the two original lighters at bow and stern would, it was anticipated, lift the vessel bodily out of the bed she had made for herself. She had settled 9 feet, and her lee ports were level with the sand. With regard to the second Question of the noble Earl—the number of bodies recovered up to the present time was 20. There were boats and efficient crews to man them—boats that could live in all ordinary weather. On several occasions the weather had been such that no boat could live. There were dockyard tugs also constantly on the look-out for bodies, except when the weather was too bad to allow them to remain near the wreck.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) BILL—(No. 76.)
(The Lord President.)

COMMITTEE (ON RE-COMMITMENT).
House in Committee (on Re-commitment) (according to Order).
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON moved numerous Amendments (No. 76 a 76 b), which were agreed to, pro formâ.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he proposed that the Bill should be re-committed on Monday, when the Amendments and new clauses could be discussed.
The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 88.)

ARMY EXAMINATIONS—RIDING AND ATHLETICS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked, Whether the Secretary of State for War has considered the propriety of allotting a certain number of marks for proficiency in riding and athletics in the examinations for entrance into Woolwich and Sandhurst Colleges? He thought that the giving of such marks was so desirable that it ought to be the rule in examinations for the Army; though, with candidates for the Militia, he would leave riding and athletics entirely optional. It was hardly necessary to say that proficiency in riding was of great importance to young men who proposed to enter the Cavalry. The Duke of Wellington used to say that he found the best Cavalry officers to be men who had been accustomed to ride to hounds. Now every officer who sought admission to the Staff College must produce a certificate of proficiency in riding. It might be said that a young officer would be taught at Sandhurst all the riding he required. He had nothing to say against the system of instruction in riding at Sandhurst. A large number of young men entered the riding school there who never had been on a horse before; they were made to go over a number of fences, and they got a number of falls which did them all the good in the world; but they could not in a term or two at Sandhurst make a good rider of a young fellow who had never been on a horse till he was 19 or 20 years of age. As regarded athletics, they were now practised at all their public schools, and not unfrequently were a part of the curriculum; but a proportion of the candidates for commissions in the Army were not educated in their public schools. It was to be borne in mind that, while the medical examination of the men was very critical, that of the officers was
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  not very strict. If the heart and lungs of the latter were found to be sound, and they had not varicose veins, they were passed; but very weedy young men might pass the medical examination, and the gymnastic course which the cadets went through in the Military Colleges would not convert a weedy man into a strong one. It was an old saying that no person should go into the water till he knew how to swim. He thought it might fairly be said that no one should go into the Army till he knew how to ride. He would have examinations in four physical exercises—swimming, leaping, walking, and riding; but a boy need not go in for them all—he might even go in for one only; and it might be left to the candidate to choose from among them. He submitted that the examinations should not be, as they were at present, purely intellectual.

ARMY—COMPETITIVE EXAMINATIONS FOR COMMISSIONS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that having long bestowed much attention on educational questions, he had naturally interested himself in the new system of competitive examinations for commissions in the Army. He had, during the last few years, on different occasions, publicly stated his views on the subject, and, as late as last July, addressed their Lordships at some length upon it. He had then expressed his earnest hope that the Government would carefully consider the question during the Recess, and, for the sake of obtaining the best and most efficient officers, allow excellence in martial and athletic exercises to have its due weight in competitive examinations for commissions, in the nonscientific, as well as the scientific branches of the British Army. He was now happy to have reason to believe that the Government had carefully considered the question. He was not at all opposed to competitive examinations, in order to enable the best out of the numerous candidates for the honour of serving the Queen in the Army to be selected. By all means, let Her Majesty take the best men, but let them be the best men all round, the most likely to prove efficient officers, and not merely the best scholars. The

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  views which he had expressed were not based upon his own individual judgment alone, but upon the opinion of a number of distinguished officers of all ranks, from Field Marshals, downwards, who were all agreed upon it. That noble veteran, Sir John Burgoyne, whose military experience had commenced before this century, himself a man of much literary culture as well as of notoriously eminent scientific and professional attainments, in the very last conversation he had with him, expressed his fear lest too exclusive importance should be attached to mere book learning as a qualification for officers, and his conviction that a certain hardihood and love of adventure, such as was generally found in men addicted to field sports and athletic exercises, was much to be desired in the profession. Another friend of his, distinguished for his efficiency in the command of his regiment, an enthusiast for competitive examinations, had told him, that, in his opinion at least one-third, if not more nearly one-half of the marks ought to be allotted to proficiency in martial and athletic exercises. But this view was not confined to officers; it commended itself to non-professional men of common sense also. A right rev. Prelate, eminently successful as Head Master of a great public school, told him he had once had the offer of a commission in the Army for anyone he chose to name from that school; that he then, reflecting that the boy most likely to win a University Scholarship would not necessarily be the fittest to carry the Queen's Colours, instituted a competitive examination, partly intellectual, partly athletic, among the boys desiring the commission; and that he felt satisfied he should send one who would do credit both to his school and to the Army, when, on adding up the marks, he ascertained that the successful candidate was the captain of the School Eleven. The Clerical Pedagogue, it seemed to him (Earl Fortescue), contrasted favourably in this instance as regarded common sense, with the eminent statesmen and distinguished officers, the Members of the Legislature and men of the world, who had devised the present system, not with standing the long-established recognition of a different principle in the examinations for commissions in the scientific branches of the Army. Surely, good riding, to which
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  the noble Viscount opposite had so justly attached importance, was less essential to the Engineer than to the Cavalry Officer, whose duties obliged him to be so much on horseback; and yet, strange to say, the candidate for a commission, if in the Engineers, got marks for it, but if in the Cavalry, got none. The only explanation was that the examinations for the Engineers and Artillery had been the result of experience of the requirements of the Service, while the present system of examinations for the nonscientific branches had been somewhat crudely and hastily adopted under the pressure of popular clamour. He protested, not against the principle of competitive examinations, but against this application of it as opposed alike to experience and to common sense, and begged to put the Question of which he had given Notice—namely, Whether the late Secretary for War did not appoint a Committee to inquire into the expediency of extending to the examinations for commissions in the non-scientific branches of the Army, the principle, long recognized to a certain extent as regarded those for the Engineers and Artillery, of giving a certain number of marks for proficiency in certain martial or athletic exercises; and, if so, whether that Committee had yet made any Report, and, if they had, whether the Government were considering the practicability of taking steps to modify the present system accordingly?
  LORD HAMPTONsaid, that as the Head of the Civil Service Commission, this subject had attracted his attention, and he had thought it his duty to give his attention to it. The examination of candidates for the Army was now intrusted to the Commission. He had been much struck how much these examinations turned upon educational and mental qualifications, and he arrived at the conclusion that the examinations for those candidates were of too exclusively an intellectual character. Having well considered the question, he thought it desirable, under a judicious arrangement, to supplement—not supersede—the present system by physical tests. He had communicated that opinion to the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, and His Royal Highness, without committing himself to any particular plan, expressed his strong approbation of the principle of such a test. He also called the attention of his

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  noble Friend (Viscount Cranbrook), who was then Secretary of State for War, and he also entirely concurred in these views. Eventually, it was thought advisable that there should be a conference between some representatives of the War Office and the Civil Service Commissioners on the subject. His noble Friend appointed a Committee of three Staff officers, who, with him, as representing the Civil Service Commission, had very attentively considered the subject. A unanimous Report, in which a test of physical efficiency was recommended, had been agreed to. He hoped to hear from his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for War, that the Government would lay that Report on the Table.
  VISCOUNT BURYneed hardly say there was an almost universal consensus of opinion, among military men and non-military men, that it was desirable there should be some sort of physical test for candidates seeking commissions in the Army. The first duty of the authorities in these matters was, of course, to see that their young officers were educated men; but, that object secured, if a physical test could be added, it would be of advantage. Until the Report of the Committee referred to by his noble Friend had been sufficiently considered by the illustrious Duke at the head of the Army, and by his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War, it was regarded as a confidential document, which might be altered in its details, and, therefore, it would not be convenient to produce it now; but when His Royal Highness and his right hon. and gallant Friend had had an opportunity of perusing and considering the Report, whether favourable or unfavourable, it would be laid on the Table, when no doubt it would receive the attention it demanded as an expression of opinion of the noble Lord, whose experience so well entitled his views to consideration.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANDSDOWNEsaid, he did not think that the proposal of a physical test for candidates seeking commissions could, with advantage, be discussed by their Lordships till the Report of the Committee was in the hands of their Lordships. He rose to point out an error into which the noble Earl (Earl Fortescue) had fallen, when he described the competitive examinations as having been hastily and crudely introduced
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  in answer to popular clamour. That was altogether a mistake. They were introduced with the utmost deliberation and in compliance with the Report of a Royal Commission, appointed by the noble Lord who had just spoken, and who was at the time Secretary of State for War. His noble Friend behind him had acted upon the Report of that Commission, which had unanimously recommended a system of competitive examinations, directed not to test the ability of the candidates in military subjects, but their proficiency in those subjects, which were usually to be learned at our great public schools. He did not say anything against a physical test, if it were possible to introduce it—the experiment would be watched with interest on both sides. He could not, however, but feel that whatever amount of caution might be used, they would have still to encounter the same class of difficulties as that which had to be contended with at present. He believed it to be beyond the reach of ingenuity to devise a perfect system of examination. There must be cases of bad luck, and chance must come in, whatever the system of examination might be. He did not like to make a gloomy anticipation, but the application of the physical test might result in the exclusion of young men who, here after, might have proved very valuable officers. There were many young men of 19 and 20 who never had had an opportunity of acquiring the art of equitation or of learning to swim. He would only add, that it would have been an advantage if noble Lords, who had inveighed so often against the present examinations, had told them not only whether the existing system of examinations was likely to act unfairly with respect to candidates, but whether it actually had done so. That proposition, however, was one which he had never heard distinctly advanced during the time this question had been discussed.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past
  Ten o'clock.