Lords Sitting of 7 June 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Conway Bridge (Composition of Debt)* (111).
Second Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (Artizans' and Labourers' Dwellings) * (101); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (Lochgelly) * (102); Monuments (Metropolis) (No. 2) * (100).
Committee—Report—General Police and Improvement Provisional Order (Paisley) * (91); Local Government Provisional Orders (Birmingham, &c.) * (95).
Third Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 3) *; Exchequer Bonds (No. 2) *; Local Government Provisional Orders (Droitwich, &c.) * (94); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Mickleover) * (92), and passed.

ARMY EXAMINATIONS—LITERARY AND PHYSICAL COMPETITIONS.

  ADDRESS FOR A PAPER.
  LORD HAMPTON,in moving an Address for the Report of the Joint Committee of the War Office and the Civil Service Commissioners appointed to consider the question whether the present literary examinations for the Army should be supplemented by physical competition, said, he had no desire to obtain any premature expression of the views of the Government, or to obtain from his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for War any promise that the Report would be adopted. But various reports had been circulated with regard to this Report, and it was very desirable that the public should be made acquainted with its real character. There was a strong impression in the public mind that the examinations for commissions in the Army had been of too exclusively a literary character, and that it was very desirable, in the interests of the young men themselves and of the public, that some supplementary test should be adopted; and it had been stated that the object of the Committee was to entirely change the present system; and it was to correct this erroneous impression that he hoped the Report would be produced. The Committee did not desire to put an end to competitive examination; they merely proposed that young men desiring to enter the Army should be permitted voluntarily to take up physical exercises, and were to be permitted to select three out of six branches of physical and manly exercise, and to obtain in these a maximum of 1,200 marks. He could not help thinking that this was a recommendation which would meet with general approval. He might add that letters of inquiry had been addressed to the different Head Masters of the Public Schools and similar institutions, asking for their views on the subject. Their answers were contained in the Appendix to the Report; and, with one or two exceptions, they expressed the strongest opinion in favour of the change which the Committee had ventured to recommend.
  Moved, That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty for Report of the Joint Committee of the War Office and the Civil Service Commissioners appointed to consider the question

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  whether the present literary examinations for the Army should be supplemented by physical competition.—(The Lord Hampton.)
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that there would be no objection on the part of Her Majesty's Government to the production of the Report. In saying this, however, it must be understood that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War reserved full discretion as to his future course of action. He could not pledge himself to the adoption of the Report, or any portion of it; he reserved to himself power, after deliberation and consultation with the illustrious Duke at the head of the Army and others acquainted with the subject, either to modify the recommendations of the Report, or even to pass it by altogether. It seemed to him, in looking at the Report, that it would be necessary to modify it in several important particulars. For instance, it was true that the Committee had not made competitive examination essential in walking, running, or swimming; but they had established a very high standard in regard to those qualifications—so high, that when, the other day, he spoke upon the subject to a young gentleman who was now in Her Majesty's Service, and his reply was—"If that is to be the standard, I would ather take up Greek." No doubt, some alterations in the examinations would be necessary. If physical competitions were made part of the examination through which young gentlemen had to pass in order to enter the Army, it would, no doubt, be an additional safeguard for securing the finest and best men to Her Majesty's Service.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he had for some years publicly recommended the change, not in the interests of any class, but in that of the Service; not for the sake of any young men, for the sake of the nation. He wished the Queen to have, so far as examinations could act as a guide in their selection, the men likely to make the best and most efficient officers. After what had been said the other day, he retracted his statement that the present system had been hastily, but not that it had been crudely, adopted by the late Government. A concurrence of professional opinion, from field marshals downwards, as well as common sense, was in favour of proficiency in
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  martial and athletic exercises counting for something in the competitive examinations for commissions as well as mere book learning. In the majority of instances, superior intellectual attainments were far from being incompatible with athletic excellence. The cricket and football Elevens of the Engineers, the corps which comprised those who had most distinguished themselves in the Woolwich examinations, had long been notoriously very strong. He had no wish to see the lot of candidates who came out at the top of the list superseded by others, and he did not believe that the adoption of this change would have at all that effect; but he did believe that, in a certain number of instances, the lowest lot of the non-successful competitors might be replaced by others very little behind them in book learning, and very much superior to them in bodily strength and athletic proficiency, much better riders, better runners, better walkers, better swimmers, with great advantage to the Service; and if it were urged that learning to ride involved some expense, so much the better for the Queen if she got officers already proficient in equitation, without having to incur the expense of instructing them in the first rudiments of the art. The object was simply this, that Her Majesty should get the best article she could for her money.
  EARL GREYsaid, he had heard with satisfaction that though the Government were not prepared to promise that they would adopt it, they were, on the other hand, by no means disposed to reject the principle that skill in physical exercises should form part of the competitive examinations for commissions in the Army. It was, in his opinion, of great importance that this principle should be acted upon. He believed that even those who were most sanguine as to the advantages likely to result from competitive examinations did not deny that the system was attended with some serious dangers, and required to be acted upon with caution. There was no doubt that over-exertion in youth sometimes did irreparable mischief to the delicate and curious organization of the human brain. He remembered to have heard the late Sir Benjamin Brodie—whose opinion on such a subject he need not say was of the highest authority—speak in the strongest manner of the many cases

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  he had seen in which permanent mischief had been done to young men of the highest promise by over-stimulating the intellectual powers in early life. It was notorious that there were too many melancholy instances of young men of high natural endowments and qualified to have become distinguished and useful members of society, but whose careers had been ruined, and their prospects in life blighted by excessive work in the pursuit of University honours. But the competition for commissions was still more keen than that for University honours, and that there had arisen a growing desire on the part of parents and teachers to insure success by carrying to the very utmost the training given to candidates for commissions in the Army. The strain thus brought on their minds was very injurious to them in after life, yet it was impossible to check this evil by any regulations for limiting the amount of training to be given, or the amount of knowledge required from those who presented themselves for examination. This would be inconsistent with the very idea of competition. But what could not be done directly, might perhaps be done indirectly, and it appeared to him that if they were not merely to allow a considerable number of marks in these examinations for skill in physical exercises, but to make a certain minimum of marks in these exercises necessary in order to pass, a good deal would be done to check the over-driving of young men in intellectual study. It would then become necessary, in order to obtain success, that candidates for commissions should keep up their health and strength by devoting a fair proportion of their time to those bodily exercises in which more skill would be required from them in order that they might pass. The adoption of the principle contended for would thus afford some security against the greatest danger arising from the system of competition, and would tend to secure better officers for the Army.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he concurred generally with the views of the noble Earl who spoke last but one (Earl Fortescue) which would be given effect to in reference to officers of the Army, by a certificate of qualification in military equitation being required of candidates, and, under any circumstances, a certain number of marks to be given
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  when certificates of a thoroughly competent knowledge were produced; and, in the case of candidates for the Cavalry, Artillery, and Engineers, made compulsory the enforcement rigidly of proper rules for this purpose would insure a practical elucidation of the views of both the noble Earls who last addressed the House. The evil of paramount importance, to prevent, and render impossible, of field officers of Infantry riding on parade for the first time at 45 years of age, was inconvenient in the highest degree, their time being taken up in a nervous endeavour to control their horses, in place of giving proper attention to their duties on parade, remaining outside because unable to enter a square. He left their Lordships to judge the injury that would necessarily accrue to Her Majesty's Service, when field officers thus unqualified were employed on active service in the field; and would conclude, on the present occasion, with merely assuring their Lordships that this was a subject of paramount importance, if only in respect to the efficiency of Her Majesty's Service, and one, in his humble judgment, admitting of an easy solution.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, it was desirable that every man who entered the Army should be a good rider; but great care should be taken that no plan was adopted which would put candidates who could not have had the facilities for practice in riding and athletic exercises enjoyed by young men in high society at a disadvantage with the latter in competing for commissions in the Army. He thought that if such a qualification were required from every candidate, it would exclude from the Army the sons of less opulent parents, otherwise in every way fit for the Service. He had not a word to say against the idea of proficiency in these exercises; but any plan such as that suggested by the noble Lord (Lord Hampton) must be considered with a deliberation which the authorities had not been as yet able to afford to it—and he did not know that, even with such deliberation, an unobjectionable plan could be arranged.
  VISCOUNT CARDWELLthought there could be no objection to the production of the Report; but he hoped their Lordships would refrain from expressing any opinion until they knew what the Report really was, and on what grounds the advice

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  it contained was given. The subject was a difficult one; and it appeared that the Secretary of State for War, than whom no one was more competent to form an opinion, had been unable, so far, to decide as to the best plan to be adopted. He must say, however, that there appeared to him to be no real reason to believe that there was any great need to stimulate the public schools, or other educational establishments to encourage athletic exercises. He thought there was much force in what had been said by the illustrious Duke, and that they had great reason to be careful lest the sanction of Parliament should be given to anything calculated to discourage intellectual proficiency in candidates for commissions in the Army.
  Motion agreed to.

FORCES OF THE CROWN IN IRELAND.

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  LORD PENZANCE LORD PENZANCE moved—
  "That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty for Return of the numbers of Forces of the Crown raised and maintained on the Irish Establishment in Ireland between A.D. 1700 and A.D. 1800, distinguishing the numbers the raising and maintenance of which were authorised by the Parliament of England from the numbers not so authorized."
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: On the part of Her Majesty's Government, I have no objection whatever to the Return moved for by my noble and learned Friend; and, on my own part, I am very glad that my noble and learned Friend moved for it. Your Lordships will remember that, during a discussion raised in your Lordships' House a short time ago, I had occasion incidentally to state that during the last century Forces of the Crown had been raised and maintained in Ireland without the assent of the English Parliament. I understand that statement has since been challenged. I am told that it has been denied with great strength and energy. I am told that it has been said that the statement was ''absolutely without foundation." Now, my Lords, I do not complain of any observations of that kind—I have no personal feeling on the subject—I am only anxious to put your Lordships in possession of any information on the subject which I may possess; and I hope the Return moved for by my noble and learned Friend
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  will verify my statement. The argument, as I understood it, that was used was this—that in an Act passed shortly before the beginning of the 18th century—the Disbanding Act, passed for the disbanding of English and Irish troops—it was provided that in Ireland a certain number of troops not exceeding 12,000 should be maintained—the King having the power of determining what the number of troops should be. Those troops were on the Irish establishment. I am aware that some persons consider that that Act, in the circumstances in which it was passed, was not meant to be an Act giving the authority of Parliament to the maintenance of a certain number of troops; but I should rather take the ordinary, and, as I think, the more correct construction, and look on it as an Act for the maintenance of 12,000 troops in Ireland. I will go further, and admit that there was an Act supplementing that one, and authorizing the maintenance of 3,000 additional troops in Ireland. Those were both English Acts of Parliament. But that does not exhaust the history of the last century, and it does not touch that part of the history of Ireland to which I made reference. What number of additional instances may appear from the Return moved for by my noble Friend I do not know; but I can refer to no fewer than seven instances during the last century in which troops in very considerable numbers were raised and maintained in Ireland on the Irish establishment without the assent and authority, as far as I am aware, of the English Parliament. The seven instances to which I refer were in the years 1793, 1795, 1796, 1797, 1798, 1799, and 1800; and your Lordships will find that in those seven years, and, indeed, throughout the whole of the last century, the 12,000 men and the 3,000 men were kept perfectly distinct from the force raised in these seven years. In 1793, the new forces or augmentations were 5,000; in 1795, they were 8,246; in 1796, they were 7,012; in 1797, they were 25,667; in 1798, they were 17,620; in 1799, they were 20,281; and in 1800, they were 33,839—all in addition to the old nucleus of the Irish Army of 12,000 and 3,000 men. I now take the liberty of repeating the statement which I made on a former occasion—namely, that these troops, so numerous, were raised and maintained on the Irish establishment

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  without any assent or authority from the English Parliament. I hope it will appear from the figures which I have just quoted to your Lordships that the statement I then made was not absolutely without foundation? I am very glad that my noble and learned Friend has moved for the Return, and I would suggest to him that he should make an addition to it having reference to a matter closely connected with this subject. The question as to the raising of troops—whether they must be raised with or without the authority of Parliament—appears to me to be a theoretical or speculative question rather than a practical one. Nobody can imagine that any troops are now going to be raised without the authority of Parliament—and certainly no proposition of that kind has been raised by anybody. The question brought before your Lordships' House the other night by my noble and learned Friend, not now present (Lord Selborne), was a very different one. It was a very practical question. It was this—there being an Army in India of Native troops, authorized by Parliament to be raised, what is the power of the Crown as to the employment of those troops? Your Lordships will see how extremely relevant the question of the employment of the 12,000 troops in Ireland is to the employment of the Native Indian troops. The 12,000 Irish troops were authorized by Parliament to be raised, and it was provided that they were to be kept on the Irish, and not on the English, establishment. The Mutiny Act passed by Parliament year after year referred to the Army provided for the defence of this country and the Colonies—the Imperial Army—but did not include nor in any way touch upon the 12,000 troops maintained in Ireland. Now, just in like manner the Native Indian Army is authorized to be raised by Statute; and just in the same way as the 12,000 troops were to be raised and employed in Ireland, so the Native Indian Army is authorized to be raised by Statute, to be on the Indian Establishment, and to be employed for service in India. In like manner, also, the Mutiny Act does not refer to the Native Indian Army; and, in that respect, the position of the 12,000 troops in Ireland was extremely similar to the position of the Native Indian Army. Now, it would be desirable to have
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  some information as to the manner in which the 12,000 troops on the Irish establishment were used and employed by the Crown during the first half of the last century; and, with reference to that point, I ask my noble and learned Friend to make an addition to his Motion by wording it so as to include a State Paper on the subject which your Lordships will find of considerable interest. In the year 1736, a question was raised between one of the Principal Secretaries of State and the Irish Government as to the employment of troops on the Irish establishment out of Ireland. The answers were given from the Office of the Secretary at War to questions sent from the Office of His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State. A dispute which had arisen as to the mode of payment of those troops seems to have been referred to the decision of Lord Hardwicke, and questions were prepared for the instruction of Lord Hardwicke. The first Question was this—
  "When regiments on the Irish establishment were first sent to do duty out of Ireland and yet received the Irish pay, with an advanced pay from England?"
  Now, this is the statement of the Secretary at War as to the employment of those 12,000 troops to whom I have referred—
  "Regiments on the Irish establishment have been sent to do duty out of Ireland time out of mind when required by England, and to my own knowledge troops were sent from thence in the reign of Queen Anne and divers times since; and when Irish regiments are brought over from Ireland or sent upon foreign service, it has always been the custom from the day of their embarcation in Ireland inclusive to place them upon the English establishment, or to allow them English pay, although continued with Irish numbers, or, if detained upon the establishment of Ireland, the difference between the Irish and English pay is made good to the commission, non-commission officers, and private men by England; a fresh proof of which is that although the right hon. the Earl of Rothes's regiment of Foot has been several years at Gibraltar, it hath, during the whole time, been kept upon Irish numbers and upon the establishment of that Kingdom, and the difference between the English and Irish pay is made good by the Parliament of Great Britain annually and not repaid by Ireland."
  This points to that which is also part of the history of that period. It appears, my Lords—and there can be no question about it, because it appears from the Estimates, which are in your Lordships'

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  Library—that the regiments of the Irish establishment were sent to Gibraltar and garrisoned Gibraltar simply by the orders of the Crown—they were not in any way included in the Vote of men in England, and no consent of Parliament was asked on the subject. Another thing that was done was this. After they had gone to Gibraltar, after they had got there—just as has been done in the case of the Indian troops at Malta—an application was made to Parliament for the cost of transports, &c. There is a great number of instances where that was done in the first half of the last century. I will cite only one. I find in the Estimates of the year 1727, which were laid on the Table on the 6th of February, 1727, that the Estimates are divided into two portions. There is, first, the Estimate for the coming year, just as we have now—giving the number of men on the English establishment and the pay for them. But the second part of the Estimates is ''an account of services incurred and not provided for by Parliament." That is expenditure for which no Vote had been taken; and here are two of the items—
  "For the charge, &c., of transporting the regiments of Colonel Hayes and Colonel Middleton from Ireland to Gibraltar, and for the service of some of the transport while detained there,"
  so much money. Then there is the item—
  ''For the difference of pay between the English and Irish establishments for the two regiments of Hayes and Middleton from the respective days of their embarcation to the 24th of December, 1727,"
  a further sum. Therefore, the regiments were sent under the orders of the Crown to Gibraltar from the Irish establishment, and application in the following year was made to the English Parliament for the charge for the transports and for the pay of the two regiments—thus forming a perfect analogy to what has now been done in the case of the Indian regiments. I would, therefore, suggest to my noble and learned Friend that he would allow me to add to the Return, for which he now moves, these words—
  "Copy of answers in 1736 from the Office of the Secretary at War to queries of the Principal Secretary of State as to the employment of troops on the Irish Establishment."
  LORD PENZANCEsaid, he had no objection to offer to the additional words suggested by his noble and learned Friend.
  VISCOUNT BURYwas understood to say he was afraid that the Records of the Adjutant General's Offices would not furnish the information now sought for, as far as regarded the earlier part of the last century.
  Motion amended, and agreed to.
  Address for—
  "Return of the numbers of Forces of the Crown raised and maintained on the Irish Establishment in Ireland between A.D. 1700 and A.D. 1800, distinguishing the numbers the raising and maintenance of which were authorized by the Parliament of England from the numbers not so authorized: And also,
  "Copy of answers in 1736 from the Office of the Secretary at War to queries of the Principal Secretary of State as to the employment of troops on the Irish Establishment."—(Lord Penzance.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday the 17th instant, a quarter before Four o'clock.