HL Deb 06 June 1878 vol 240 cc1242-6
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

My Lords, in putting to my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the Question, of which I have given Notice, I quite admit that the subject is one of great difficulty and delicacy; but, at the same time, I think I can put it in such a manner as to avoid anything that might stir the susceptibilities of any who may be about to take part in the Congress. The Armenians, as represented by the ex-Patriarch of Constantinople and others, complain that, while in the Treaty of San Stefano all the other Christian subjects of Turkey are mentioned separately and in detail, and their position is fully recognized, they themselves are scarcely mentioned, or only mentioned in such a manner, merely by name, as to give them no kind of security that their case will be fully considered whenever the Congress shall assemble. They state that they constitute a nationality worthy of consideration, and that altogether in the world they amount to between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000, of whom about 3,000,000 are inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire, 1,000,000 are under Russian rule, and the rest scattered throughout Persia, Java, Europe, and America. It was true that in the 16th clause of the Treaty of San Stefano, the Armenians were mentioned; but that clause gave very little assurance beyond this, that the Porte would do its best to save them from the ravages of the Kurds and Circassians. Everyone knows that the Armenian Province of Turkey is one of the finest countries on the face of the earth, and the Armenian Christians are noted for their intelligence and commercial industry throughout the world. All that they at present require is contained in the Question on the Notice Paper—namely, Whether the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will undertake, that in the Congress about to be held, the case of the Armenian Christians shall be heard as well as the case of the other Christians under the Government of Turkey? I think that they have addressed a very humble and proper request. They have a right to be protected under the great European Treaty of 1856; and I am sure that the intelligence of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will induce him to consider the question, and that the generosity of his heart will stir him to do all that is consistent with his duty to promote the interest of this great nationality, so long labouring under such grievous oppression and cruelty.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, the Armenian Christians, I believe, are mentioned in an Article of the Treaty of San Stefano, in which the Sultan promises to provide such reforms as will relieve the immediate localities, and protect them from their special sufferings—the ravages of the neighbouring hordes of Kurds. The other Christians under the government of Turkey are not, if my recollection serves me rightly, provided for specifically in the Treaty. What is provided for is that institutions shall be given to the Christian Provinces. That is not a distinction without a difference. Where the Christians are exclusively, or a very large majority, of the inhabitants of a particular Province, it is possible to give them special institutions, and to give the Province special institutions also; but where they are mixed with a large proportion of persons of another faith, it is not possible to give them special institutions, without having recourse to that which is undoubtedly an anomaly—namely, the provision of different institutions for the inhabitants of the same locality. That is, undoubtedly, a very considerable difficulty, and certainly it is one which will meet us on the threshhold of the case of Armenia, whenever it may come to be considered; because, though un- doubtedly the Armenians are a people of a separate faith, and—though the term cannot be applied with accuracy—they may also be regarded as constituting a separate nationality, yet they are so scattered about, and so mixed with the Turkish population, that either you must provide institutions applicable to Turks, Kurds, and Armenians, alike, or else you must have recourse to the anomalous device I have referred to—of having several different institutions in the same locality. I am pointing out this to show my noble Friend that the case of the Armenians is not quite on all fours with that of other Christians inhabiting other Provinces of Turkey. With respect to my noble Friend's Question, I can only say that it is not my province to indicate what a Congress consisting of the Powers of Europe will think it right to do; but it is, undoubtedly, the fact that the case of the Armenians must, by the Article of the Treaty of San Stefano, to which I have alluded, be brought under the consideration of the Congress. I feel sure that the other European Powers will examine the case of Armenia with great sympathy for all its people, and with a desire that their lot should be ameliorated, and I can assure my noble Friend, with absolute confidence, that these sentiments will animate Her Majesty's Government.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON

My Lords, I have heard with satisfaction the statement of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; because, though undoubtedly that statement was guarded, I gather from it that the case of the Armenian people will be brought effectively before the Congress, and that, so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, whatever should in justice be done for them will be done. And, my Lords, if justice is to be done, there are no Christian subjects of Turkey who deserve more consideration than the Armenians. They are a religion and a nationality distinct in themselves. They are ancient in history; they are a peaceful, industrious, and highly commercial people; and they are second only to the Greeks in intellectual power among the Christian races of the East. They may be said, indeed, to be the equivalent of the Greeks in Asia Minor. Nor have any people suffered a greater amount of oppression than the Armenians. In that, indeed, it may be said they have but shared the common fate of the other Christian races of the East; but I believe that the misfortunes and sufferings of the Armenians have been greater than those of some of the Christian races in Europe, because the power of the Porte was less felt in those distant Provinces, and the public opinion of Europe has been less brought to bear upon their case. I myself, when travelling in those districts, many years ago, was often a witness of the grinding oppression to which the Armenians were subjected. No time, indeed, will ever efface from my recollection the evidence of the ruthless spoliation and savagery to which some of those Christian races, living far away from the sight and protection of the European Powers, were called upon to endure; but if that were the case then, what must be the state of things now, after a long season of anarchy, and when the reins of government over the Mahommedan population are wholly relaxed—when the barbarous Kurdish tribes come down from their mountains without check, carrying fire and sword and depredation over the whole Province? I believe that whatever horrors and cruelties have been perpetrated in European Turkey, they have been perpetrated to at least an equal extent in Asia Minor. That is the first point; but there are two other points to be remembered. First, if, after all this, it should be the destiny of the Armenian people to pass once more under Turkish rule, we must bear in mind that that rule would be relaxed and loosened as the result of present anarchy, and that the Mahommedan population may even be greatly reinforced by fresh accessions from the Turkish Provinces in Europe—a fresh element and cause of disorder and violence. The second is, that Russia at this moment contains, as I think my noble Friend opposite pointed out, not fewer than 1,000,000 Armenians within her districts, and that the condition of these people being greatly superior to that of their fellow-countrymen in Turkey, the contrast will be such that it will tend to keep up that uneasy feeling which it is the object of everyone at this moment, if possible, to allay. My Lords, we are now going into a Congress. I hope that the Congress, in dealing with the case of the Armenians as with that of other nationalities, will not content itself with merely patching up the present grievance; but, if a fair and full attempt is made at a final settlement of this question, the causes of scandal and future strife which exist now may be removed; and then only such means of prosperity may be secured to them, as will make them contentedly acquiesce in the form of government which may be given to them.

EARL GRANVILLE

My Lords, I heard with satisfaction the temperate terms in which my noble Friend behind me (the Earl of Shaftesbury) brought forward the undoubtedly strong case of the Armenians. He has shown what a strong claim the Armenians have on the sympathy of the European Powers on account of their peaceful and commercial habits and their great intelligence; and I am bound to say that, though guarded, the assurance which the noble Marquess the Secretary of State has given of the sympathy of Her Majesty's Government with the Armenian people is extremely satisfactory. My noble Friend did not, and neither do I, expect the noble Marquess to go fully into the question now, when the Congress is just about to meet; I feel the difficulty there is in the way of discussing the matter at the present time. It is clear—and I do not blame them for it—that Her Majesty's Government do not wish to make any statement as to the course they propose to take at the Congress. My noble Friend, who is not now present (Earl Grey), asked, the other evening, whether certain rumours which had appeared in an evening paper as to the agreement between Russia and England were correct; and the noble Marquess, in reply, stated that those rumours were not trust worthy. We do not know, therefore, the exact nature of the agreement or of the policy Her Majesty's Government are about to adopt, and I do not think it would be convenient to put any pressure on the Government as to its terms; consequently, it appears to me it would not be convenient—there may be a difficulty—in discussing any particular point which will have to be considered by the Congress. I am glad, however, that this matter has been brought forward, and that the Question of my noble Friend has, to a certain extent at least, met with a satisfactory response from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.