Lords Sitting of 30 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Naval Discipline Amendment* (175); Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers' Expenses) (Scotland) * (174).
Committee—Debtors Acts Amendment* (163).
Third Reading—Marriage Preliminaries (Scotland) * (172); Corrib (Galway) River* (166); Metropolitan Board of Works (Money) * (169); Freshwater Fish Protection* (173), and passed.
Withdrawn—Charitable Trusts (150).

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.—(No. 150.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)

BILL WITHDRAWN.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that since the Bill had passed through some of its most important stages, objection had been taken in various quarters to some of its provisions. He would have been able, he thought, to satisfy their Lordships that some of those objections were groundless, and that others could be met by very simple Amendments; but, looking at the state of Business in the other House of Parliament, he did not consider he would be justified in proposing alterations which

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might occupy some time in discussion, and, at the same time, leave no hope of the Bill passing this Session. Under those circumstances, he moved that the Order be discharged.
Motion agreed to; Order discharged; and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

METROPOLITAN POLICE FORCE.

  ADDRESS FOR, RETURN.
  LORD TRUROrose to ask, what steps, if any, have been taken to increase the efficiency of the protective and detective Police in the Metropolis and its suburbs, and to move for the Report of the Committee appointed in 1868, to investigate the condition of the Metropolitan Police Force, and that specially appointed to inquire into the constitution and condition of the detective department of that Force. He said that this was not the first time he had had to trouble the House with metropolitan questions. On the last occasion, his remarks had reference to the outrages that had taken place in the neighborhood of London, and about which the noble Earl opposite (Earl Beauchamp), by his answer, proved himself to be either uninstructed or misinformed. No doubt, the noble Earl made application to the sources whence he thought he would derive full and accurate information; but all he did was to entertain the House with airy speculations as to the Metropolitan Police—speculations which afterwards turned out to be entirely without foundation. He (Lord Truro) referred at that time to the unsatisfactory condition of the detective department. But the noble Earl, in reply, assured their Lordships that that department was exceedingly efficient, and hinted that his (Lord Truro's) information was not to be relied upon. Their Lordships would remember what happened shortly afterwards. Highway robberies of the worst description were committed, and it came to light that the detective department was in a condition than which it was impossible to imagine anything more disastrous. Upon consideration, the Government thought it expedient, if not actually necessary, to institute some inquiry, with a view of improving both the protective and detective departments of the police. And whatever steps they
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  took were not taken a moment too soon, for it turned out that some members of the detective department were in actual complicity with thieves, and were even worse than those they were paid to look after. Now, it had come to him in the way of rumour that Her Majesty's Government had appointed a Committee of four gentlemen—as able and as well qualified for the work as any that could be found—to investigate the condition of the detective department; but he had reason to believe that they did not think it desirable or essential to direct them to consider whether any steps should be taken for the improvement or increase of the protective police. If he were misinformed on that point, he should rejoice exceedingly; but, if not, it would be his duty to tell the Government that the Metropolis, and especially the suburbs, were not satisfied with the supervision and protection that was given them by the Police. Whilst he was not justified in anticipating the reply that would be given him, yet he knew enough of these inquiries to understand that it was just within the verge of possibility that the noble Earl opposite would refuse to produce either of the Reports for which he asked. Of course, there were cases in which secrecy was a matter of great moment; but the Reports in question, although they might contain some matter which it was not desirable to publish, ought, in his opinion, to be laid on the Table for the information of the public. If it were not injurious to the Public Service that the Reports should be produced, what could be the reason for withholding them? Was it the fear of exposing to criminals the secrets and mysteries of the system provided for their detection? It could scarcely be that, for their Lordships could not doubt for a moment that thieves were already very well acquainted with all the duties and operations of the police in relation to themselves. Although there might be some material which it would be desirable to conceal, he could not help thinking that it would be to the interest of the public that portions of the evidence should be published, with the view of remedying the defects which might exist in the Force. Of course, the Government had a right to retain them, if they thought there was no ground for producing the materials. In the Report of 1868, there were certain

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  recommendations which. — not in his judgment alone—it would be desirable to carry out One of those recommendations was, that there should be an increased number of Assistant Commissioners. Since the passing of Sir Robert Peel's Act there had been two Assistant Commissioners; but the amount of metropolitan business which had arisen since the appointment of those two men made it unquestionable that other Assistant Commissioners should have been appointed. After the Committee of 1868, he believed that it was intended to appoint two Assistant Commissioners and two gentlemen of remarkable ability and admirably qualified for the posts were selected; but for some inconceivable motive, the original intention was abandoned. He could not help thinking that some efforts must have been made to induce a re-consideration on the part of the Government of their intentions; for those two men were relegated to very inferior positions—they were practically relegated to positions analogous to those of district Inspectors. Would it be difficult to suggest that there should be four Assistant Commissioners, instead of two? He understood that recently, under the recommendation of the late Committee, there had been appointed a very able, active, and intelligent man to look after the detective department. If that functionary was left alone to superintend the detective department, he would be buried in its business. Originally the detective department was managed by many men. The amount of business was even then overwhelming, and yet there had been a great increase of business since. However industrious that officer might be—and he believed there were no words too strong to be spoken of his abilities—yet the business must be so great that it would be unjust to leave him single-handed. It would be found necessary, on the part of the Government, to give him additional assistance. So much as regarded the detective department. As regarded the protective department, he believed it was the opinion even of the Government that that department was at the present time underhanded by no less than 1,000 men. He was well aware that Her Majesty's Government, like all other Governments, desired, as far as possible, to avoid throwing any additional ex-
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  pense upon the Consolidated Fund; but the additional expense was as nothing compared with the security and happiness which the inhabitants of the Metropolis desired, and were entitled to. What was the state of the Metropolis? There had not been a popular re-distribution of the police to give to the suburbs that security which he was quite sure the Government would desire. On a former occasion, the observations which he made were treated by the noble Earl opposite and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, with a merriment not by any means common to their Lordships' House; but he had raised the question solely in the interest of the public. He would conclude by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Report of the Committee appointed in 1868 to investigate the condition of the Metropolitan Police Force, and that specially appointed to inquire into the constitution and condition of the detective department of the Metropolitan Police Force.—(The Lord Truro.)
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, that when he first went to the Home Office, he found that the Committee of 1868 had been appointed by his noble Friend the present Secretary of State for India, who had been carrying out some of the recommendations of the Committee. It was his duty to consider the whole of the recommendations, and he was only too glad to give effect to some of them. He found that his noble Friend had already appointed two officers of great distinction; and it became his duty, and the duty of the Chief Commissioner, to consider whether the detective department might not be strengthened. The charge then brought against the police was that they were too much of the nature of a military Force, and that they were not so successful as they should be in the prevention and detection of crime. Before Colonel Henderson had been a year in office, the number of detective police was increased from 17 to 252, and 22 divisions of police were strengthened. They were carefully selected, and not the slightest charge had been brought against any of the officers so appointed. That very large increase was made for the purpose of detecting crime, and to enable the police to become more intimately acquainted with the habits of the

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  criminal population. The charges of which certain detectives were convicted some time ago were brought only against three or four officers who had been a long time in the Service, and the remarks that had been made were utterly inapplicable to the great majority of the Force. During three years in which the new system had been in operation, certain classes of crime had been decreased by one-half. Burglaries, for instance, had decreased from 800 to something over 400; while robberies with violence in the streets had decreased in the same proportion. He could quite understand the necessity of examining, from time to time, into all these departments; but he must say, considering the enormous extension of the Metropolis, that it was marvellous they did not hear more frequently of charges against the police. Every year there were added to the population 70,000 persons; and of that increase, 20,000 came into the outer radius. There was thus, in new localities, a large number of persons who were unknown to the police. His noble Friend had said that he had been informed that the police was 1,000 men below its numerical strength; but he should be very much surprised and disappointed if he did not hear that the rule of Colonel Henderson had been enormously successful. His noble Friend should guard himself against bringing such sweeping charges as those he had done against an entire body of men, when it was clear that the offences were confined to only three or four of the officers. It had been said that if the Government refused to lay the Report on the Table, the public would say that there was something in it which they did not care should be known; but he should like to know what assistance the head of a Department was to get if he could not sometimes receive reports which were not to be published.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he was sure that the noble Lord (Lord Aberdare) had not said one word of the police which was not warranted by the manner in which they discharged their duties. He thought their Lordships would be convinced that it was quite impossible that the Report should be published. The Committee of 1868 received evidence on the distinct understanding that the evidence so given was of a confidential character, All those
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  who were invited to come forward would have great ground for complaint if, some years afterwards, the information which they had given was laid before Parliament. There were many matters on which Ministers required information which could not be published. It was quite impossible, without injury to the Public Service, to produce the Report which the noble Lord desired. Besides, he understood that Questions had been asked in the House of Commons with regard to the Committee of 1868, and the production of the Report had been invariably refused. With regard to the detective police, that service, as their Lordships knew, had been re-organized. The Report which Colonel Henderson made to the Secretary of State would be out in a very short time, and it would contain full information as to what had been done. It was not possible yet to judge of the work of re-organization; and he was afraid that if further alteration was made, such would not conduce to the establishment of that settled system which was most desirable. The noble Lord had adverted to the increase in the population of the Metropolis; but he had not adverted to one material part of the increase—that was, the increase of the area of the Metropolis. During 1877, there were no less than 14,410 new houses, 270 new streets, and two new squares, representing 39 miles and 1,623 yards placed under police supervision. That was a remarkable increase. Since 1849, the number of new housesbuiltexceeded300,000,new streets, 7,388, and new squares 82, the length of new streets and squares being 1,287 miles. For 1877, the number was 14,410, showing a considerable excess on any previous year. Now, as to the question, whether it was necessary to make any large increase in the strength of the Metropolitan Police, he was not prepared to offer any opinion; but he must distinctly repudiate the assumption of the noble Lord opposite, that it was the opinion of the Government that the Force was underhanded to the extent of 1,000 men. If the Government had considered it so underhanded, they would, of course, before then have taken steps to bring up the force to the strength necessary for the efficient discharge of its duties. As showing that the Government were alive to the matter, he might remind the noble Lord that in 1868, the then Home Secre-

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  tary (Mr. Hardy) directed an increase of the force to the extent of 1,000 men, in order to meet the enlarged demands of a growing population. He was not prepared, at that moment, to say that he would advise Her Majesty's Government to repeat that step. The noble Lord said that the metropolitan suburbs were "not satisfied." Now, as one having a residence in a suburb, he believed that the people were satisfied; at any rate, he had not been made aware of the dissatisfaction which the noble Lord alleged to prevail. Of course, in cases where there was a vast amount of wealth and property collected on an area like that of the Metropolis, it was impossible that there should not be some complaints against the police in their protective character; but he was convinced that, on the whole, the inhabitants were satisfied with the manner in which the duties of the Force were carried out. The Force itself was at this moment exceedingly popular. There was no difficulty in obtaining recruits; the number of long-service men was greater than at any previous period; and, as the Parliamentary Returns showed, the state of discipline was highly satisfactory. That being so, he was utterly at a loss to know why the noble Lord should have brought such sweeping charges against the Metropolitan Police. The noble Lord had spoken of outrages and "highway robberies of the worst description." Certainly, a robbery of an unusual character had taken place at Blackheath last year; but it would, be investing that occurrence with ridiculous importance to call it a "highway robbery of the worst description." In considering whether the police efficiently discharged their duties, the question to be answered was, was crime on the increase or was it not? He did not think it was on the increase. According to the statistics, in the last half of the year 1877, the number of felonies committed in the metropolitan district was 2,209; whilst, in the half-year ending June 30, 1878—both periods, be it remembered, containing three months of short days and long nights—the number was 1,734. Subsidiary statistics, also, went to show that the epidemic of crime which seemed to prevail last year was now passing away, and that the efforts of the police to control the criminal population were being attended with success. Under those circumstances, he
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  thought their Lordships would be of opinion that the observations of the noble Lord went far beyond the necessities of the case, that his allegations that the public were not satisfied had not been proved, and that the Motion for the production of the Reports ought not, therefore, to be assented to.
  LORD TRUROwould be perfectly satisfied with having elicited the statement just made by the noble Earl opposite, and with having called forth the observations offered by the noble Lord who was, for a considerable time, Secretary of State for the Home Department, and whose services he, for one, considered had never been duly appreciated. If the noble Earl said that he (Lord Truro) had made sweeping charges against the detective department, it must, of course, be true. For having unwittingly done so, he must express his regret, at the same time saying that he did not for a moment mean to suggest that there was not in that large body many men who discharged their duties faithfully and honourably, and to the satisfaction of the public. But, at the same time, he must say that there was a strong impression abroad that the department was infected to a much larger extent than it appeared to have been, according to the statement of the noble Earl. He had derived his information on the point from the Press and from rumour; and those two sources certainly justified the suspicion that dissatisfaction existed in the detective department to a greater degree than could now be proved. The noble Earl had accused him of exaggerated language in reference to the robbery at Blackheath. Well, all he could say was, that for a gentleman's carriage to be stopped, and for loaded pistols to be presented at the heads of those inside, with a demand for their money or their lives, was, in his opinion, a very tolerable outrage.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPdid not say that it was not an outrage. All he said was that the circumstances did not warrant it in being described as a "highway robbery of the worst description."
  LORD TRUROwas himself unable to conceive a robbery of a worse description, unless, indeed, it was accompanied by murder. The noble Earl had referred to the decrease of crime as proof that the police were discharging their

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  duties efficiently, and that ample protection was given to suburban property. But not many weeks ago he read, in the Charge of one of the Judges presiding at the Old Bailey, that in the space of five months there had been no less than 39 burglaries in Hackney and Clapton. That was pretty well for one district. He, therefore, adhered to his language, that the metropolitan suburbs were not satisfied with the protection afforded them by the police; and he was sure that they would not consider the statement of the noble Earl a satisfactory answer to the complaint he had made. He did not intend to suggest, by his remarks, that the Government were of opinion that the Force was underhanded to the extent of 1,000 men; but he had heard a great many people say that, looking to the deficiency of the protective department, it was very desirable that the strength of the Force should be increased, the number, of course, being left to the judgment of the Government. Now, as to the general character of the police, it occurred to him that the men received more than enough military instruction; whilst they were not afforded sufficient of that sort of instruction which sharpened their intelligence and qualified them to a greater extent for the detection of crime. It was perfectly true that they might be seen marching on a curb-stone with an exactitude that would do the heart of a military man good to see; but he did not discover in them that activity and power of observation which policemen in the Metropolis ought to exhibit. As far as appearance went, everything was very satisfactory; but there was an absence of that vigilance, sharpness, briskness, and attention to duty which was desirable in a great Metropolis like London. Whilst making these observations, he was bound freely to admit, with the noble Lord below (Lord Aberdare), that it was remarkable that a population of 4,000,000 people should have their persons and their property protected with the efficiency even of the present time.
  On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

  ARMY — THE AUXILIARY FORCES — THE MILITIA—CLOTHING REGULATIONS.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHcalled attention to Paragraphs 20 and 25
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  of the Regulation for the supply of clothing, &c, to Militia regiments issued last January, and asked, Whether they could not be re-considered and made to apply only to articles supplied to men who had been enrolled subsequent to the dates mentioned in Paragraph 25? He had no intention of impugning the general wisdom of the Regulations referred to; but he thought he should be able to show that Paragraphs 20 and 25, if read together, would inflict a certain hardship upon a few men of the Volunteer Force. Paragraph 20 revised the rule relating to the length of time that articles issued to the men were to last. Where formerly it was five years, it was now six; where formerly it was four years, it was now five; and so on. In passing, he would just like to say that if the articles issued under the new rule were not stronger and more durable than those now in use, it would be only at the expense of smartness that the additional wear would be got out of them. The bargain made with a number of the men when they were enrolled was that at the end of five years the articles served out to them should become their own property; but the effect of the change in the Regulations would be that a man who did not re-enrol after five years would lose his right to those articles, because it was now laid down that they were to last six years. It might be replied that all bargains on the subject of clothing were liable to revision at the option of the Secretary of State for War; but he ventured to say that if the men were made aware of the existence of an arbitrary alteration of this kind, it would give rise to a soreness and a feeling of ill-usage that it was highly desirable to obviate. Again, it might be said that the value of things was not very great; but that would not, in his opinion, prevent dissatisfaction, if the new Regulations were carried out to their full extent. The Highland regiments would be injuriously affected by them; but as they had not yet, in many instances, finished their trainings, the full hardship had not been discovered, and that might account for the fact that few or no representations had been made on this subject. His object in bringing the subject under the notice of the House was to try to induce the Government to provide that the Regulations should apply only to men

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  enrolled after the dates mentioned in Paragraph 25.
  VISCOUNT BURY,on the part of the Government, said, it was perfectly true that it used to be the practice in the Militia that, at the end of the five years, certain articles became the property of the men, and that the period had now been altered to six years. It was equally true that the new Regulations hit principally the Highland regiments. Her Majesty's Government desired to deal fairly, and even generously, with the Militia; and he must confess that in looking into the matter, there did seem to be a certain amount of hardship inflicted by the change. Without entering into any details, he would suggest that the noble Lord should talk the matter over with him, in which event he had no doubt of being able to propose some alteration that would meet the views of the noble Lord.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.