Lords Sitting of 25 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading— Debtors Acts Amendment (163).
Committee—Freshwater Fish Protection* (155– 173); Weights and Measures (161).
Committee — Report — Marriage Preliminaries (Scotland) * (149–172); Commutation of Tithes (151); Police (Expenses) Act Continuance * (165).
Report—Epping Forest * (164).
Third Reading—County of Hertford * (154); Roads and Bridges (Scotland) * (157), and passed.

HOUSE OF LORDS—STRANGERS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he wished to ask the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees a Question of which he had given him private Notice— Whether, at the next meeting of the Committee appointed in reference to the Offices of Clerk of the Parliaments and Usher of the Black Rod, he would bring under its notice the regulations under which strangers were now admitted within the precincts of their Lordships' House, with a view to their re-consideration and enforcement? The strangers who were admitted to their Lordships' House were not merely persons of their own sex; indeed, the most important portion of them were ladies. The Rules under which they were admitted, from a period so long ago as 1849, in which year it was decided that Peeresses and unmarried daughters of Peers should be admitted to the Gallery of the House.

  199
  The only change which had been made since that time was in the year 1864, when it was determined that only one unmarried daughter of a Peer should be admitted on occasions when it was expected there was going to be a considerable debate. That Rule, so altered, stood till the present time; but under the regulations of their Lordships' House there were no means of enforcing these rules. These was only one doorkeeper appointed to take charge of the doors on both sides of their Lordships' House. To show the way this system worked, he could not do better than describe what took place on Thursday last. On that occasion it was well known that the Prime Minister was going to make an important statement, and, of course, the ladies trooped down to the House, not in scores, but in hundreds. There were no checks; they were permitted to enter the House so early as half-past 3 o'clock. Their Lordships might imagine the feelings of the one doorkeeper when he found himself confronted with legions of ladies, all determined to hear the Prime Minister. The result had been a considerable amount of dissatisfaction and complaint, as their Lordships must have heard. So much for the Ladies Gallery. The wives of the eldest sons of Peers had also complained that the modest box set apart for their entertainment was generally occupied by the time they arrived, and that they found themselves in a position decidedly inferior to the unmarried daughters of their Lordships. Perhaps, however, it was thought they had a certain amount of compensation for that in the fact that it was tolerably certain, in the ordinary course of events, their Lordships would give way to their eldest sons, and their wives would thereby find themselves in a position from which, at the present time, they were most rigidly excluded. The same sort of difficulty was felt on Thursday last in the Diplomatists' Gallery. When various distinguished diplomatists arrived, they found their seats occupied by persons who were not diplomatists, and who did not give way. They had, therefore, to leave the House, or to take up such inferior positions as they found themselves able to obtain. He must also call attention not only to what took place on that occasion, but to what ordinarily took place on the steps of the Throne. In regard to the steps of the Throne,
  200
  there was no Order of their Lordships' House; but it was the immemorial practice that the eldest sons of Peers, Scotch and Irish Peers and Privy Councillors should be admitted to the steps of the Throne. But, as their Lordships must have seen, persons who belonged to none of these categories found their way there. He had himself seen distinguished dignitaries of the Church, Members of the other House of Parliament, and other persons who had no right to be there, congregated round the steps of the Throne. If they were to have Rules, would it not be well to have those Rules enforced? Would it not be advisable that Rules, dating 30 years back, should be re-considered by a Committee of their Lordships' House; and, when they had been revised, that proper means should be taken to make them effective, and so to prevent the confusion that had arisen not only last Thursday, but on many previous occasions, which their Lordships would remember? He begged to ask the noble Earl the Question of which he had given Notice.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, he was only Chairman of the Committee, but he would bring the matter before it if their Lordships wished him to do so. He did not see in what manner they were to enforce any regulations it might choose to make in regard to the countless number of ladies who came down to their House. There were no doubt considerable abuses in the way the privilege of entrance was exercised. A policeman might be of some advantage in stopping irregularities in regard to the use of the Diplomatic Gallery, for certainly to break into that Gallery and keep out the diplomatists was a very decided offence. But he did not see how they could employ the same means in regard to the Ladies' Gallery. Their Lordships had largely the remedy in their own hands. They could easily prevent all but such ladies of their families as had a right of admittance from coming down on such an occasion as last Thursday. He could only hope that the statement which had been made regarding the inconvenience that arose on Thursday last would have its effect upon those who, by their conduct, caused that inconvenience.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the subject was one of considerable im-

  201
  portance, for there could be no doubt that, even supposing the Rules were rigidly observed, there would still be a most enormous deficiency in the accommodation for those who naturally expected admittance. There was a common error that the side Galleries were set apart for Peeresses. The fact was, their Lordships might sit there and even address the House from those Galleries. It was only a matter of courtesy that anyone holding the Office he had the honour to hold, if he saw, after the House met, that those Galleries were not likely to be occupied by Peers, might order the doors to be opened for the reception of Peeresses. That was only a contingent privilege of admittance. He had many years ago proposed, and he now made the suggestion again, that the Galleries of the House might be made to accommodate two rows of seats up the whole length of the House. He was informed that this would add to the acoustic properties of the House, and would in no way interfere with the architectural symmetry of the building. It would make the Galleries much more comfortable.
  LORD TRITROasked, whether it would not be well to admit to these Galleries only by ticket?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, there was, no doubt, foundation for the complaints to which his noble Friends had referred. He did not see that there was much necessity to enforce strict Rules on ordinary occasions; but, on great occasions like last Thursday, there certainly ought to be something done. He was told that in several cases large numbers of the same family came down and succeeded in occupying places. It was a reasonable Rule that at such times only one daughter of a family should be admitted, and this Rule ought to be enforced.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYthought their Lordships ought to be thankful that things were no worse. There was an occasion on record—Horace Walpole told them of it—when ladies striving to gain admission, and getting in between two doors, kicked and screamed, and made such a noise, that the Lords were unable to carry on their proceedings for several hours. The ladies of the present day showed, at least, more decorum than to conduct themselves in. that fashion.

  THE TREATY OF BERLIN—THE POET OF BATOUM.—EXPLANATION.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: Some remarks of a contradictory character regarding the port of Batoum were made lately in your Lordships' House by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) and myself. I made a statement on one authority; the noble Earl contradicted it on another. I have no doubt that we both thought we had the best authority for our statements; but both authorities being anonymous, I felt it my duty to appeal to the Hydrographer of the Admiralty. I have not the honour of his personal acquaintance, but I am told he is a gentleman in whom may be placed the most implicit confidence. He has favoured me with the following Memorandum on Batoum:—
  "Batoum can only be described as a bay, and not as a harbour. The area within which ships can anchor is limited to a circle of about 850 yards in diameter; but this area is further reduced by the very deep water, upwards of 45 fathoms, of the central part. The anchorage ground in any reasonable depth is thus confined to the shore segment of the circle, and certainly not more than three iron-clad ships could take up anchorage here, and swing clear, even with a limited amount of cable, and in fine weather. With reference to the statement made that the port has contained 13 men-of-war and a transport, this could only have been effected by the ships being placed parallel to each other at short distances, and their sterns secured to the shore, near the town on the western side of the bay. These are not conditions attached to free anchoring ground, and it could only be under very exceptional circumstances that such a squadron could be so packed, and even then with insecurity.
  "F. J. EVANS, Hydrographer.
  "July 25th, 1878."
  I thought that an authentic document of that kind should be placed before your Lordships.

  THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE — MARRIAGE OF H. R. H. THE DUKE OF CONNAUGHT.
  Order of the Day for the Queen's Message to be taken into consideration, read.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, in asking you to consider the Queen's Gracious Message, I have to move—
  "That a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty to thank Her Majesty for the most gracious communication which it has pleased Her Majesty to make to this House of the intended marriage between His Royal Highness

  203
  Arthur William Patrick Albert, Duke of Con-naught and Strathearne, Earl of Sussex, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and Her Royal Highness Princess Louise Margaret Alexandra Victoria Agnes of Prussia, third daughter of His Royal Highness Prince Fried-rich Carl Nickolaus of Prussia, and to assure Her Majesty that this House, always feeling the most lively interest in any event which will contribute to the happiness of the Royal Family, will concur in those measures which may be proposed for the consideration of this House to enable Her Majesty to make a further provision for His Royal Highness on this occasion."
  My Lords, the duty and affection which your Lordships' House, and I may say the country generally, have always felt towards the Royal Family are sentiments I need not at all dilate upon. They have their origin, I think, in two principal reasons—the one public, and the other private. The first is the conviction of the country that the sustained order of our national life, which characterizes this country, and which is the Lest security for the liberty and welfare of the community, is mainly owing to our Monarchical institutions; and the private reason is that I think the undisguised details which reach the people of the domestic life of our Royal Family are such as to excite the liveliest interest in the English people, who are always interested in the happiness of the hearth. The lady who is betrothed to our Prince is the daughter of an illustrious and Imperial House; but I believe that these splendid accidents have nothing to do with the union which is soon about to be solemnized. It is a union of the heart and of the affections. The time has gone by when the balance of power formed one of the clauses of Royal marriage treaties. With regard to that lady, I believe there are some noble Lords present who have had the advantage of making her acquaintance, and I know they will agree with me that I use no language of flattery when I say she is distinguished by her intelligence and her accomplishments, and for winning simplicity, both of thought and manner. The Duke of Connaught is known to us all. He sits amongst us as his Peers. He is known to the country for his spotless life. He is devoted to a noble Profession. He is not a soldier of parade, but of service. When the terrible contingency of war seemed to be hovering over this country, the Duke of Con-naught was the first to express a hope that he might be allowed to be sent
  204
  forth to defend the honour and the interests of his country. I am happy to think that this terrible contingency has now disappeared. That is a circumstance which will only add to the satisfaction the country will feel at this union. I, therefore, beg now to place in the hands of your Lordships the Address which I have moved.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I should like to add a few words to what has fallen from the noble Earl opposite. I think I speak for those behind me, as well as for myself, when I say that I entirely concur in the sentiments he has expressed with regard to the loyalty of this country, and the value which the nation places upon our Monarchial institutions. In speaking of Royal or high marriages, the difficulty is to avoid unmeaning compliment towards the persons about to contract them. Now, my Lords, about seven years ago, it was my lot to propose to this House an Address somewhat similar to the present, in which Parliament was asked to make some provision for Prince Arthur, as he then was. At the time, I remarked very shortly that there was scarcely a young man of any class who had secured more completely the goodwill of those with whom he had associated, either in his own Family or Profession, or in the society in which he moved; and I alluded to the good service he had done the Royal Family by his demeanour in North America, which had largely aided in strengthening and maintaining the feeling of attachment borne by the people of the Dominion towards the Sovereign and this country. I venture to think that now, after the lapse of seven years, no one can say that they were words of flattery on my part; for the illustrious Prince has during that period fully maintained the good opinion of him which I then expressed. The noble Earl opposite has alluded to His Royal Highness's connection with the Army. The Duke of Connaught is one of the few persons serving in all arms of the Service; and in each one of each he has been equally appreciated, his popularity being especially increased by his demeanour and excellent conduct during his sojourn in the sister Kingdom of Ireland. I have not the advantage of a personal knowledge of the illustrious lady to whom he is about to be allied; but I understand, from what

  205
  has been said, that the noble Earl's statement is entirely shared in by those who do know her. It is a great satisfaction to us to remember how much those Princesses who have become Englishwomen by marriage with the sons of our Sovereign have endeared themselves to the country of their adoption, and there is every reason to believe that the same happy result will be accomplished in the present instance.
  LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALA: As a military Member of this House, and as one who has seen something of the service of the Duke of Connaught, I desire to say that the opinion I have heard expressed by officers of all classes is that His Royal Highness, by his careful, punctual, and zealous performance of his duties in every branch of the Army, had shown his determination to make himself an efficient soldier for the service of his country. At Gibraltar, the officers there—never thinking that their words would be repeated here —spoke of him in the highest terms as a subordinate officer connected with the Adjutant General's Department—a post with which he identified himself so as to win the approbation, not only of the General commanding, but of every officer with whom he came in contact. I feel that your Lordships will pardon my occupying your time in saying these few words, to which I will only add that the conduct of His Royal Highness has afforded the brightest example to every young officer in the Service.
  Her Majesty's Most Gracious Message of Tuesday last considered accordingly.
  Then an humble Address of thanks and concurrence ordered, nemine dissentiente, to be presented to Her Majesty thereupon; the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

  COMMUTATION OF TITHES BILL.
  (The Lord Henniker.)
  (NO. 151.) COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  LORD HENNIKER,in moving that the House do now go into Committee on the Bill, explained that the measure was a very short one. It passed the House of Commons without discussion, and had the approval of the Home Secretary,
  206
  the Tithe Commission, the Ecclesiastical Commission, and the Queen Anne's Bounty Board; but as he had not explained to their Lordships the provisions of the Bill on the second reading, he would do so on the present occasion. According to the present law, an owner of building land could compel the tithe owner of such land to consent to the redemption of the rent - charge, the amount received was paid over to Queen Anne's Bounty Board and invested in Consols. There were no other compulsory powers on either side. The owner of non-building land could exchange it for land as a better possession for the tithe rent-charge on his estate, or he could redeem the rent-charge on his lands up to 20 s. a-year, with the consent of the tithe owner in either case. No further power existed at present. The Bill before their Lordships merely extended existing Acts; it created no new machinery. Clause 1 extended the compulsory power as to building lands to other cases, which experience had shown it necessary to include. Clause 3 extended the provisions of 9th & 10th of the Queen, c. 73, s. 5, and allowed either the landowner or tithe owner to redeem without the consent of other parties. Their Lordships would see in the clause the words, "if they see fit," "they" meaning the Tithe Commissioners; so that full protection was given so far as the payment of money was concerned. By Clause 4, the tithe owner and the land owner, with the consent of the Bishop and Patron, and the approval of the Tithe Commissioners, were enabled to redeem the rent-charge, which could not now be done, however advantageous such a proceeding might be to both parties. There was no fear of any injustice occurring under the clause, guarded as it was by the necessity for the approval of the Tithe Commission, and the contents to which he had referred. As some Amendments were to be proposed to the Bill, he had thought it necessary to make this short explanation to their Lordships.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid, that he would reserve the Amendments of which he had given Notice until the third reading.
  House in Committee; Bill reported without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Monday next.

  DEBTORS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  (The Earl of Limerick.)
  (NO. 163.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading, read.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICK,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, explained that under the Debtors' Act, 1869, and the Debtors' Act (Ireland), 1872, when an application for attachment was made against any person who had failed to comply with an order of the Court as to payment, the Judge had no option in the matter; he was bound to direct that the attachment should issue. Many cases of hardship had arisen out of this arbitrary rule; and very frequently in instances where there was a legal, though not a moral, responsibility to the law in this respect, Judges had expressed their regret that no discretion was allowed them. There were only two clauses in the Bill, the first of which recited that—
  "In any case coining within the exceptions numbered 3 and 4 in the fourth section of the Debtors Act, 1869, and in the fifth section of the Debtors Act (Ireland), 1872, respectively, or within either of those exceptions, any Court or Judge, making the order for payment, or having jurisdiction in the action or proceeding in which the order for payment is made, may inquire into the case, and (subject to the provisions of the said sections respectively) may grant or refuse, either absolutely or upon terms, any application for a writ or attachment, or other process, or order of arrest, orimprisonment, and any application to stay the operation of any such writ, process, or order, or for discharge from arrest or imprisonment thereunder."
  Their Lordships would see, therefore, that the Bill simply left to the Judge or Court a matter which was now beyond his or its discretion; and to such a change in the law, he thought, there could be no opposition. If the House agreed to the second reading, he would be prepared to insert modifications for the purpose of bringing the Bill into harmony with that introduced by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack last year.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.
  (The Lord Henniker.)
  (NO. 161.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 to 37, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 38 (Power of Board of Trade to verify metric weights and measures).
  EARL FORTESCUEmoved an Amendment, the object of which, as he explained, was to legalize the verification of weights and measures on the metric system. To him it seemed very remarkable and invidious that in this, the greatest commercial country in the world, engaging in large contracts on the metric system with other nations, the only weights and measures authorized by law to be verified should be the imperial, the equivalent of which in the metric system were given in the Act in figures running to five places of decimals. Though the metric system had rather retrograded than advanced in the favour both of Parliament and the public during the past few years, yet it had now been adopted compulsorily in countries numbering some 200,000,000 of inhabitants, and permissively in countries with some 100,000,000 more. Considering the constantly increasing extent of our commercial transactions with many nations, and especially with the French, using the metric system, it did certainly seem to him desirable that the facilities now given by the Bill for the use of that system for scientific, should be extended to trading, purposes.
  Amendment moved, in page 10, line 15, to leave out from "trade" to end of clause.—(The Earl Fortescue.)
  LORD COLCHESTERobserved, that he did not intend to move the Amendments, of which he had given Notice, to the 50th and the 53rd clauses, the noble Lord in charge of the Bill having given Notice that he could not adopt them. He hoped, however, that the noble Lord would hold out some hope that hereafter some legislation would be attempted on the lines of his (Lord Colchester's) suggestion, if, after a reasonable trial, it was found that the "local authority" did not satisfactorily discharge the duties which devolved upon

  209
  them under the Bill. He did not hope, or desire, that the imperial system should be superseded by the metric system. As he said on the second reading, all he wished was that the two systems should be put upon an equality, and that where buyer and seller agreed, the metric standard might be used.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, he had already stated that the Board of Trade were strongly of opinion that the Bill went far enough in its provisions as to the metric system, and that it could not go further, at present. He could not, therefore, accept the Amendment of the noble Earl opposite. He must add that this Bill was a consolidating measure, and he did not think a Bill of this kind was the proper place for the introduction of a new principle—namely, a change of such great importance as the establishment of a new system of weights and measures. He thought the noble Earl, and those who agreed with him, ought to be content with the step taken by the Bill in the direction he desired. Should this Amendment be carried, no doubt, the Bill would be lost. He did not believe that this was the wish of the noble Earl—to throw away all the labour which had been expended in preparing the measure, and to put off carrying out the many improvements in the system in force which it contained. He, therefore, appealed to the noble Earl not to press his Amendment.
  On Question? Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 39 to 49, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 50 (Local authorities and local rates).
  LORD COLCHESTERsaid, he had an Amendment which he feared would fall under the same objection as the Amendment which had just been negatived. He had, however, seen and heard a great deal which convinced him that the permissive power granted to these local bodies should only be temporary, and that it should only be continued until they saw whether those bodies were willing to gracefully abdicate the functions for which they were in no way fitted. What were the facts of the case? These strong municipalities were intrusted to the control of Inspectors in this matter, and the poorest class of householders were not likely to get much
  210
  consideration at their hands. The members of small corporations were, on the other hand, very often the very class of persons whose weights and measures required inspection, and the very class liable to be called to account for negligence, or worse, in this matter; and even those of them who were not likely to be called to account themselves were animated by an esprit de corps which would render effective inspection exceedingly difficult.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, it was quite impossible for him to accept the Amendment of his noble Friend. Here, again, the question of a new principle was involved. The Amendment proposed to take away all power from the local authorities which they at present possessed, and this it was proposed to do in a consolidating measure. The Board of Trade were by no means prepared to propose so great a change, and he could not agree to the Amendment.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 51 and 52 agreed to.
  Clause 53 (Power to local authority to make bye-laws as to local verification, &c).
  LORD COLCHESTERsaid, he had also an Amendment, the object of which was to transfer the machinery for carrying out the Act from the local authorities to the Board of Trade, giving the local authorities, however, the power to make bye-laws which the Board of Trade might enforce. There was no fear, he said, that the local authorities would be too vigorous in the application of the law. It was much more likely that they would neglect the matter altogether. He thought the Department of the Board of Trade would be well qualified to work the Act in all cases. It ought, at all events, to have the power to recommend bye-laws, which could be enforced if the local authorities did not voluntarily draw them up and apply them. Considering how much they favoured centralization in some other matters, he was surprised at the Government's enthusiastic worship of local self-government in this. He did not wish to press the Amendment, but he hoped it would before long be adopted in legislation. He would inquire, in future, how far the local authorities had made use of this clause, and if they had not applied

  211
  it, he would again propose that the power should be taken away from them. He suggested to the Government the desirableness of enabling Inspectors of weights and measures to visit canteens to which civilians were admitted to make purchases. It was important to stop some scandalous abuses arising from clashing jurisdictions in this matter.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, this was a most important clause. The powers it gave to the Board of Trade were most valuable—to make bye-laws, to make regulations, and secure the proper enforcement of the law at the request of the local authority. To force them to make certain bye-laws was quite a different thing. The Board of Trade were not prepared for such a change. The powers they considered to be quite sufficient under this clause. Hero, again, a new course of procedure was involved by the Amendments of his noble Friend, and this measure was not the proper place for its introduction. Both this and the former Amendment to Clause 50 pointed to centralization of the most complete kind. He could not accept the Amendment. The noble Lord had mentioned canteens. He was aware of the Hounslow case mentioned by his noble Friend. It could not be expected that the commander of a regiment would willingly consent to the interference of an Inspector. He would, however, call the attention of the proper authorities at the Board of Trade to the subject, so that the law might be clearly denned by bye-laws, when an opportunity arose.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 54 to 77, inclusive, agreed, to.

  APPLICATION OF ACT TO IRELAND.
  Clause 78 (Providing of local standards and sub-standards).
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he wished to bring forward the Amendment he foreshadowed on the second reading of the Bill. It was intended to remedy the inconveniences attending the verification of local standards in Ireland. It provided that the local standards of the county of Dublin should be recognized as Board of Trade standards, and that the local standards throughout Ireland should be verified by them. They were to be verified in London every five
  212
  years; and, as the matter was a constabulary matter in Ireland, it was proposed to place them in the hands of the head of the constabulary. The great expense and loss of time that now occurred would thus be removed. However, Clause 37 of the Bill appeared to empower the Board of Trade to deal with the matter, as it provided for the verification of local standards in any place; and he hoped Her Majesty's Government would give some assurance that they would deal with the matter under this clause. The urgency of the case with regard to Dublin was greater than it was with regard to any place in England and Scotland; for, besides the expense of sending the local standards long distances for verification, there were certain climatic differences between the two countries to be considered.
  Amendment moved, in page 23, before Clause 76, to insert as a new Clause—
  (Standards in custody of Inspector-General of Constabulary to be equivalent to Board of Trade standards.)
  "The local standards which at the passing of this Act are in the custody of the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary, shall be verified by the Board of Trade not less than once in five years, and shall be deemed for all the purposes of this Act as regards Ireland to be equivalent to Board of Trade standards; and the said Inspector-General shall, subject as aforesaid, have the same powers and perform the same duties in relation to the said local standards as the Board of Trade have and perform in relation to Board of Trade standards."— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, the Board of Trade were disposed to think that the present system in Ireland of verifying weights and measures was not satisfactory; it led to unnecessary trouble, and unnecessary and great expense. The Board of Trade were prepared to take some steps to remedy this evil; if possible, by sending Board of Trade standards over to Ireland to be kept in Dublin. Before any such step would be taken, the Irish Office and the Treasury must be consulted. This would require time. If his noble Friend the noble Earl would withdraw his Amendment, he would undertake, on the part of the Board of Trade, to communicate with these Departments on the subject, to see what could be done. No clause would be necessary to carry out what he had proposed, as the provisions of Clause 37

  213
  would be quite sufficient to meet the case.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, it could, no doubt, be done now, but only in a manner that was most expensive. What he desired was that it should be done in the cheapest manner.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received To-morrow.

  TRAMWAYS BILLS—(Nos. 130, 122.)
  On the Order for going into Committee on the Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill and the Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill,
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEasked that the Order should be postponed, and he intended to-morrow to bring before the House certain Resolutions regarding the use of steam power on tramways. It would be well, he thought, that the whole matter should be discussed together.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, on Monday week the noble Earl at the Table requested him. to postpone the consideration of these Bills in Committee. He then stated that he could not postpone them for more than a week or 10 days. As then agreed, he had put these Bills off till to-day. He could not do more than that in justice to the promoters, for they had been put to very great expense and trouble by the action of Parliament during the last two years. In fairness to them, he could not put the consideration of them off longer, and the noble Earl himself said he did not wish the Bills to be lost by lapse of time. He (Lord Henniker) was quite ready to go on with them; but after what the noble Earl had said, he could do no less than to put them off; for it would, probably, be more convenient to their Lordships to consider the main question in dispute —that was to say, the use of steam on tramways—on the discussion upon the Motion of the noble Earl, when the whole question would be raised. He did so with regret, for he thought the promoters and others concerned in these Bills had good reason for asking their Lordships to come to a speedy decision on this subject.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, there were six other Bills of a similar character involving the use of steam power.
  Committee put off till To-morrow.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS—VIVISECTION.

  QUESTION.
  EARL DE LA WARRasked, When the Return relative to the Medical and Scientific Experiments upon Living Animals would be laid on the Table of the House? The subject excited a great deal of public interest, and the Reports of the Inspectors who visited places registered for such experiments were anxiously looked for.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that on the Motion of Mr. Mundella, copies of this Return had been distributed to the Members of the other House, and a copy only came into his (Earl Beauchamp's) hands that morning. He would communicate it to their Lordships' House.
  Then an Address for—
  Return of Licenses granted under the Act 39 and 40 Victoria chap. 77 to amend the Law relating to Cruelty to Animals.— (The Lord Steward.)
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.