Lords Sitting of 23 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Drainage and Improvement of Land (Ireland) * (168); Metropolitan Board of Works (Money)* (169); Turnpike Acts Continuance* (170).
Second Reading—Corrib (Galway) River* (166); Police (Expenses) Act Continuance* (165).
Committee—Epping Forest* (164).
Committee—Report—County of Hertford* (154).
Report—Roads and Bridges (Scotland) (157).
Third Reading—Local Government Provisional Order (Darenth Valley) * (152), and. passed.

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN— MARRIAGE OF H.R.H. THE DUKE OF CON NAUGHT AND STRATHEARNE.
THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I have a Message from the Queen, under Her Majesty's Sign Manual.
And the Royal Message having been delivered by the Earl of Beaconsfield, was read by the Lord Chancellor, as follows:
"VICTORIA R.
"Her Majesty having agreed to a marriage proposed between His Royal Highness Arthur William Patrick Albert Duke of Connaught and Strathearne, Earl of Sussex, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and Her Royal Highness Princess Louise Margaret Alexandra Victoria Agnes of Prussia, third daughter of His Royal Highness Prince Fried-rich Carl Nikolaus of Prussia, has thought fit to communicate it to the House of Lords:
"The numerous proofs which the Queen has received from the House of Lords of their loyalty to the Throne, and of their attachment to Her person and family, leave Her Majesty no doubt of their readiness to concur in enabling Her Majesty to make a further provision for His Royal Highness.
"V. R."
Ordered, that the said Message be taken into consideration on Thursday next.

ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) BILL—(No. 157.)
(The Lord President.)
ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) BILL—(No. 157.)

  REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he had two or three small Amendments to propose to Clause 36, in order to remove certain ambiguities which had been allowed to remain in the clause after the adoption by the Government in the House of Commons of an Amendment to the effect he desired. He wished to strike out such words as "proprietors," applied to the ownership of bridges; because a person could not be considered the absolute proprietor of a bridge of which the public had the use. The clause would then read thus—
  "The trustees of any county or counties and the local authority of any burgh or burghs shall, as soon as may he after the commencement of this Act, in such county or in any of such counties, adjust and settle with the persons or trustees having the management of any bridge or bridges forming part of or connecting any highways, whether situated wholly in one county or burgh or not, at which pontages are legally leviable by any person or trustees or the magistrates and town council of any burgh, &c."
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had looked into the Amendments with the Bill, and he agreed with the noble Earl that there was some ambiguity in the clause as it had stood, and that the Amendments which loft the clause as quoted above would render it much clearer than formerly; and he was, therefore, very happy to accept the Amendments.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Further Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEdrew the attention of the House to the fact that the clauses in the Act of 1 & 2 Will. IV. incorporated in the Schedule were numbered by Roman numerals, instead of common figures, as was the practice before the passing of the Reform Bill. Having inquired at that time what was the reason for the change, he was informed that some Members of the Re-formed House of Commons did not understand Roman numerals, and that the change was made for their convenience. Since that time there had been further changes in the constitution of that House, and their Lordships might probably be
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  of opinion that it was desirable to order that the Roman numerals in that part of the Bill to which he referred should be altered to common figures.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACT.

  MOTION FOR RETURNS.
  EARL TORTESCUE, in moving for Returns in continuation of Return respecting Endowed Schools Act, Paper No. 6, ordered to be printed on the 21st January last, said, the subject was one with which he had troubled the House more than once before. The question, however, seemed to him to become more urgent and more important year by year, as from time to time one educational endowment after another formerly misused or disused, became permanently misapplied by the centralizing system established by the late Government and perpetuated by the present. In 1875, while explaining to their Lordships the unhappy results of the administration of the old Commissioners, and while applauding the appointment of each one of the new Commissioners individually, he ventured to predict that, in spite of the personal excellence of the latter, it would be impossible for them to do well, and for this reason—that they had work given them to do which the Schools Inquiry Commission had emphatically stated could not be done by the central authority without the co-operation of some provincial authority, which should be capable of looking at the county, or perhaps several counties, as a whole; but which should know the district well, and not act in mere dependence on the Re-ports of its officers. Now, in finding fault with the results of the administration of the present Commissioners, he begged to say that he did not blame the men—! he blamed the system under which they were acting; a system adopted, as he said before, in spite of the emphatic warning of the Schools Inquiry Commission. The noble Duke the Lord President of the Council was of all the I statesmen he remembered of his own time the most confirmed admirer of centralization; for, two years ago, when he (Earl Fortescue) pressed for the establishment of provincial boards, in accordance with the recommendations of the Schools Inquiry Commission—upon which the Report of the Endowed Schools Commission professed to be, though it was not really, based—the

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  noble Duke took the opportunity of expressing his opinion that the Central Commissioners, supplied with information through their Inspectors and Assistant Commissioners, would be more capable of forming an impartial opinion than persons who, from local considerations, would naturally be anxious to have schools of the highest grade. Against that view of the noble Duke, however, there was the opinion of the Commissioners themselves, who had acknowledged the great advantages of provincial boards, in that they would be composed of men
  "capable of thoroughly understanding and appreciating local claims, yet not hampered by a tendency to consider them alone."
  The Commissioners spoke, too, of the absolute necessity of establishing new machinery to do entirely new work; and of the desirableness of local knowledge on the part of those who were to prepare the schemes. The Schools Inquiry's Report, too, insisted in the strongest language upon the necessity of dealing with schools in groups—a point which had been pressed upon the Commissioners by witnesses of the highest authority. In the Report of 1872, the then Commissioners stated that they had strenuously endeavoured to deal with the schools in groups, but that local and other difficulties had prevented such an arrangement, and that they had been obliged to treat each case in an isolated manner and without reference to the other schools in the district. One might have hoped, however, that Her Majesty's Government, justly objecting to the animus displayed by some of the Commissioners, whom they displaced, would have seized the opportunity, when legislating on the subject, of taking the whole question in hand, and altering the provisions which had rendered the Act unworkable in regard to what the Inquiry Commissioners had stated to be a point of vital importance. But nothing of the sort was done. The Schools Inquiry Commission, by a series of investigations and calculations, had ascertained that at least one-half of the school accommodation above the level of elementary education was required for the third grade. The Endowed Schools Commission divided the schools into three grades—The first, that in which the age of leaving was about 18 or 19; the second, in which the age was about
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  16; and the third, in which the age was about 14 or 15. The Commissioners, also, expressed their opinion that the proportion of day scholars in the third grade ought to be larger than that in the first and second grades; but, according to the joint Report of the Endowed Schools Commission and the Charity Commissioners, the number of first-grade schools for which schemes had been approved was 42; second grade, 96; and third grade, only 99. The Schools Inquiry Commission, again, said that the most urgent educational need of the country was that of good schools of the third grade for children up to the age of 13 or 14; because private enterprize could not supply the want, as every master of a private third-grade school, when successful, naturally turned it into a second-grade school, with higher payments. There had been complaints from various parts of the country of the deficiency of second-grade education—of an undue preponderance of first grade, and an insufficiency of second grade. In Bradford, by sanction of the Privy Council, the school board had established an elementary school, with fees in the cases of a certain number of children as high as 9d. per week, for the purpose of giving a higher education. He did not pretend to be acquainted with the special circumstances of Bradford; but, upon general grounds, as rates were levied on real property alone— not on the whole income of the nation, but only on about one-fifth of it—he thought it hard that the ratepayers should be compelled to provide schools for the lower middle classes and the higher class of artizans, when there were large endowments available for the educational requirements of the nation. He could not state the certain result more tersely or clearly than in the words he used once before—
  "The undue multiplication of first and second-grade schools will not only be a "waste of money, but by furnishing a supply in excess of the natural demand, will tend to diminish the prosperity and, with it, the efficiency of each school. You will have a disastrous competition between them for pupils. They will either lower their prices to keep up their numbers, and thus tempt parents to send their children to schools of too high a grade, and to keep them unduly long at learning, instead of beginning earning or they will have their schools half empty with fewer masters, obliged each to teach more subjects, and therefore teaching less well; while, in either case, the standard of masters will be lowered

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  through the impaired prospects of remuneration offered.….When the learned Professions, and that of clerks and such like, are already so overstocked, when trade is dull and manufactures slack, is it wise to multiply schools for qualifying boys chiefly for the work of distribution or verification, involving only little or very light manual labour, and to stint the number of third-grade schools, better suited to boys early to be trained to hard bodily labour. … .The classes using the first and second-grade schools, thus unduly multiplied, will have the education of their children in them deteriorated in consequence. But what is far more serious, the best of the lower middle class, and the most intelligent and self-denying of the artizans, willing to make sacrifices in order to secure for their children a better education than they had themselves enjoyed, will be cruelly and unjustly denied their fair share of the benefits of the magnificent educational endowment, yielding more than £666,000 a-year, and worth more than £20,000,000, provided by the pious munificence of our ancestors. And their case will be all the harder because, for reasons which I have already given from the Report, they cannot expect the void thus needlessly created to be supplied by private enter-prize; and the present respectable misapplication of those endowments is much more hopelessly irrevocable than was the previous state of abuse, misuse, and disuse of many of them which invited reform."—[3 Hansard, ccxxxv. 962–3.]
  He ventured to ask, in these circumstances, whether the Government—all whose Members were not as bureaucratic in their views as the noble Duke—would not, before the remaining half or so of the income of £666,000 a-year was disposed of by the Commissioners, consider the expediency of establishing a system of local provincial boards to assist the central authorities in the preparation of schemes for meeting the local educational wants of the country at large? He begged to move for the Return of which he had given Notice.
  Moved, That there be laid before this House—
  "Return made out county by county, in continuation of Return respecting the Endowed Schools Acts, Paper No. (6.), ordered to be printed on the 21st of January last, with in each case a proximate estimate of the annual endowments of (1) The number of Schemes finally approved and in force in England and Wales under the Endowed Schools Acts of 1869, 1873, and 1874; (2) The number of Schemes published by the Charity Commissioners under those Acts, but not yet finally approved; (3) The Endowed Schools not returned in (1) and (2), nor included in sect. 3. of the Endowed Schools Act, 1873, which are within the general provisions of the Endowed Schools Acts; (4) The aggregate number and income of Endowed Schools included in sect, 3. of the Endowed Schools Act, 1873: Also,
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  "Return, as regards (1), of the grade, determined as in Paper (6.), 1878, of each school under the Scheme in force, and proximate estimate of the number of scholars for which each such school is attended, as well as the total number and grades of such schools and the total number of scholars so estimated."—(The Earl Fortescue.)
  THE BISHOP OF EXETERdesired to express his concurrence with what had fallen from the noble Earl, and his very great regret that whilst so very much good work had been done by the Endowed Schools Commission, it had, nevertheless, been so very much marred by want of really effective machinery. He confessed that when first the Endowed Schools Act was passed, he did not anticipate that what they had said in the Schools Inquiry Commission would be so completely corroborated by the actual results. He thought, at that time, that the central authority might very possibly be able to hold its own against certain local interests; but the working of the Endowed Schools Commission from that day to this had only proved more and more that the Schools Inquiry Commission were right in saying that the work to be done was not of a sort that could be thoroughly done by a central authority. The work to be done, as far as they might briefly express it, was this—to create a great number of third-rate schools, and also to group our English schools in such relations to each other, that instead of a very foolish and unhealthy kind of competition, they might all do a part of the work to be done. Of these two objects, it would be difficult to say which was the most important. The want of the third-rate schools was really depriving the lower half of the middle classes of this country of anything like an efficient supply of educational resources. Not only was this the case, but it appeared to be doing serious mischief to the elementary schools below them; because, in all schools, it was of great importance indeed that the scholars should be stimulated, where they had any talent, and were able to do something more than the average run of their schoolfellows, by the possibility of their rising to a higher education. Such a stimulus was good for both boys and masters. His former experience as an Inspector led him to regret the sort of deadness which prevailed in the elementary schools; for even in regard to

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  the most clever boys, the education seemed to aim at nothing higher. He could not but help feeling, by comparing the spirit in the elementary schools with the spirit in the schools of a higher grade, that there was a real want that could only be supplied by there being a possibility of rising out of these schools to schools of higher education. But such schools did not exist. It would, for the sake of the elementary schools, be a great object to provide these third-rate schools. He did not know whether the establishment of due relations between the various grades of schools was not quite as important a matter as the creation of schools of the third grade. It was a very important matter that there should not only be schools for the boys of the lower middle classes in sufficient abundance, but that there should also be an opportunity of rising to something higher, and it was very often a great matter that the schools should be adapted to the particular localities where they were to be placed. One school might, for instance, have a direction given to it that would suit it to prepare boys rather for commercial pursuits; another school might be designed to prepare boys for manufacturing operations; another might prepare them for the lower ranks of law, or occupations of that kind. The education in each case would, very rightly, vary; and if there was an authority thoroughly acquainted with all the localities, it would be possible to arrange that the different schools should do their different work, each work being the best fitted for its own place. But he did not think it was possible to do it unless there was some authority on the spot, and thoroughly acquainted with all the circumstances of the locality; because, in all these schools, there had been all sorts of petty local interests influencing their management for a very long time; and, as far as he could see, there was only one way to deal with small local interests, and that was to put against them larger local interests. If they attempted to deal with them by a central authority, they invariably found that the central authority was beaten from ignorance of the particular circumstances of the case. Not only so, but the central authority had not so strong interest in upholding its principles, but was much more likely to give way to strong representations
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  from the place where the school was situated than the larger local authority would be. If it were proposed, for instance, that a school in a particular town should be made a second-grade school, and the town wished to make it a first-grade school, the local authority of the county at large would be able to look at the matter, taking in the circumstances of the spot, and taking in, also, the interests of the surrounding locality. There would be a fair competition of interests, and he was quite ready to admit that the central authority would be in its place in judging between them, and might be able very often to decide which of the interests ought to prevail. But as the thing now stood, the larger local interests were left out of sight, because there was no person with the local position and local right to defend them. It was very difficult in this country to get people to take up anything simply for the public good. But it was quite as difficult to get them listened to when they did take it up. If a man came forward and said—"This is what is best for the county," he was immediately met with the inquiry— "What right have you to speak on behalf of the county?" But if there was an authority representing the county, it would be impossible to put that question, and the county interest would be sure to have its real weight as between it and the particular town. As the matter now stood, it seemed to him that it would be impossible to find any single instance in which the larger local interest had been allowed its fair weight as against the smaller. He did not mean at all to deny that the Endowed Schools Commissioners were doing their best. The aims they put before them in the Report they had issued were certainly exceedingly good. They were aiming at the right thing; but it was not the aim that was in question, it was their power of reaching that aim. He could not help feeling confident that a larger local authority, representing one or two counties, would in each case have produced an exceedingly different result from that which had been brought about by the Commission. There was always this difficulty in arguing a matter of this sort—that if an attempt were made to go down to the details of each separate case, it was almost impossible to prove that the wrong thing had been done. In each

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  separate place it might very fairly be said—"There is one opinion on one side, and another opinion on the other side. The Endowed Schools Commission took the one opinion and not the other." But when they looked at the result as a whole, it was quite evident now that the aim which was pointed out by the Schools Inquiry Commission as that which ought to be attained had been, to a large extent with the present machinery, impossible of attainment. They had nothing like a sufficient number of third-rate schools, and as to putting the schools into better relation to one another, he could hardly say there had been anything done.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had certainly not expected, upon a Motion which was not opposed by Her Majesty's Government, for the production of certain Returns that were really a continuation of Returns already given, that the noble Earl (Earl Fortescue) would have thought it necessary to go so fully into the subject. The noble Earl had, as he told them, quoted very largely from the speech he delivered on the subject last year. He had also done him (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) the honour of quoting also from the speech he made last year in answer to him; and these facts being before their Lordships, and the noble Earl's opinion of last year, as he expressed it, and his (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon's) opinion, which he expressed last year, being also precisely the same, he did not think he need enter at any length into that branch of the subject. Another year's experience had shown him that the work done by the Charity Commissioners had been done in the most satisfactory manner. He had been thrown a great deal in connection with them from his position as President of the Council, and he could honestly and conscientiously say that they had done their work satisfactorily; and he, therefore, held an opposite opinion to that entertained by the noble Earl, for he believed that the work had been, and could be, done well by a central body. The noble Earl had said that the operations of the Charity Commissioners under the powers of the Endowed Schools Act had done harm to the elementary schools.
  EARL FORTESCUEdenied that he had said what was attributed to him.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONstated, that he had understood the noble Earl to say that by the provisions that were made for endowed schools harm was done to the elementary schools below them. But if he had misunderstood the noble Earl, he withdrew the expression, and took it that the action of the Charity Commissioners in carrying out the endowed schools system was not productive of any harm at all to the elementary schools of the country. Therefore, they had, at all events, the elementary schools separated from his blame of the manner in which the schools above them were conducted. The right rev. Prelate who had spoken (the Bishop of Exeter) had complained that there was a considerable amount of deadness in the manner in which the elementary schools were carried on when he was an Inspector. He could not help thinking that if the right rev. Prelate were now to inspect the schools— which he might do in the course of his duties in his diocese—he would see that in many elementary schools, certainly deadness did not prevail. The right rev. Prelate objected to the action of the Charity Commissioners that they did not sufficiently consider, in their Report, the encouragement which ought to be given in elementary schools to scholars to rise. He was sorry to differ from the right rev. Prelate; but that was precisely what they did, or endeavoured to do. They provided exhibitions for boys who were clever, with the view of enabling them to rise in their studies and to pass to the higher schools. Both the noble Earl and right rev. Prelate did what it was very easy to do—they raised their objections in general terms. They did not bring forward any instance of neglect on the part of the Commissioners in any particular locality or school. Had they done so, the Commissioners would have been put upon their trial, and it would have been for them to show that they had not neglected either the powers or the duties placed upon them by the Act. The right rev. Prelate argued that it would be very difficult to bring up any separate instance in which the Commissioners had done wrong; but until he was prepared to do so, he (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) was inclined to say that the charges of neglect of duty existed more in theory than in practice. At any rate, until cases were brought

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  before him, he was content to believe that the present system was well worked; and until the need of amendment in the system itself were proved, he was quite prepared to leave things as they stood. There would be no objection to the Re-turns asked for by the noble Earl, if the last line of the Motion—"proximate estimate of the number of the total scholars by which each such school is attended," and "total number of scholars so estimated," were struck out.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, without entering upon the general question, wished to draw the attention of the noble Duke to a point, not of much importance, perhaps, but still worthy of notice. He by no means asserted that the Charity Commissioners were neglectful of their duties; but, as a trustee of an endowed school, he found that a practice prevailed amongst that body which was not to be found in any other Public Office. About this time of the year the Commissioners departed, apparently in a body, on what they called "the recess;" and if a letter was written then on any business connected with the Department, the answer received was—"Will be attended to after the recess." Such a practice he considered to be exceedingly wrong, and he trusted the noble Duke would see that arrangements were made by which the Public Business would not in future suffer in that way.
  EARL FORTESCUE, in reply, said, he did not doubt that the Charity Commissioners and the Endowed School Commissioners had endeavoured to do their duty; but he maintained, on the authority of one of the most statesmanlike and powerful Commissions of his day, that they had work given them to do which, from the very nature of the case, they could not do satisfactorily, and he claimed that the speech of the noble Duke that evening had fully confirmed that view.
  Amendment made: Words struck out, and Return, as amended, agreed to.

  THE EXPLOSIVES ACT—STOWAGE OF GUNPOWDER ON SHIPBOARD—THE "PEREORA."—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRUROcalled attention to the improper stowage of upwards of 20 tons of gunpowder on board the merchant and passenger sailing ship Pereora in the Thames; to the defective state of the law
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  as requiring proper magazines for the transport of gunpowder on merchant ships; and to the inefficient inspection of the stowage of gunpowder on merchant ships in and at the mouth of the Thames either by the Board of Trade or the Thames Conservancy. The noble Lord said, that the whole subject relating to the stowage of gunpowder on board vessels was, to his mind, one of considerable importance both to the public and the merchant shipping of this country. The case of the Pereora was not one of which he desired to make any great point; but he had availed himself of it as an illustration of certain deficiencies in the administration of the Port of London. The Pereora was a vessel of 1,600 tons, belonging to the New Zealand Shipping Company, and was on a voyage from the Port of London to Auckland with a general cargo, which it appeared was made up, or made complete, by placing on board a considerable quantity of gunpowder—amounting, he was informed, to as much as 30 or 40 tons; though, for the sake of being with in the mark, he had put it down at 20 tons. Before going further, he wished to state that the matter to which he proposed to call attention did not in any way indicate a conflict of jurisdiction between the Thames Conservancy and the Board of Trade. Not long since, a Statute, called "The Explosives Act" was passed, which, he would not say empowered, but directed, the Thames Conservancy to draw up certain bye-laws regulating the stowage and other matters connected with vessels. Therefore, it was not from any conflict of authority that that of which he complained had arisen; but from a disinclination on the part both of the Conservancy and the Government to exercise the powers placed in their hands. Now, he wished to direct the attention of the Government to three things—first, to the stowage of gunpowder on board merchant and sailing ships; secondly, to the inspection of magazines in which gunpowder was stored; and, thirdly, to the defective state of the law in regard to notice. In regard to this latter point, he would at once say that he hoped the House would take some steps for insuring that notice of the intention to ship gunpowder should be given, not only to the Board of Trade, but to the passengers and crew of a ship. It appeared that the Board of Trade had always been unwilling

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  to impose any restrictions or regulations which might be considered unduly to interfere with commerce; and, therefore, had left this matter very much to the supervision of the Thames Conservancy. He was aware that there were certain regulations in force in reference to the stowage of small quantities of gunpowder. It was required to be packed in kegs of a certain size; those kegs could only be taken on board in small numbers, and they were required to be kept separate from the rest of the cargo, or any combustibles. But there were no regulations of any moment imposed by the Thames Conservancy, much less by any direct law; and the consequence very often was that which happened in the case of the Pereora. It appeared that at 12 at night, before the ship left the Thames, the captain was informed that it was the intention of the shippers to embark gunpowder on board. The following morning the carpenters set to work to erect what was considered, by them, a sufficient magazine, but which was a mere wooden partition; and the gunpowder having been taken on board, to the amount of 40 tons, the ship then left the following morning for its destination. No notice having been given to the passengers, they could offer no appeal, and the consequence was that the relatives of those on board were not in a very happy frame of mind as to what might happen. Now, it was not at all a difficult matter to ship gunpowder on the Thames over-night, to elude all inspection, and then next morning to slip down the river without any interruption on the part of the authorities. There was a regulation that a red flag should be hoisted on ships leaving the Port of London; but it was easy enough to avoid that by dropping down the river late at night, after the officials had gone to bed, there take the gunpowder on board, and next morning get away without notice or interference. No doubt, there was a law to stop all this; but it was in a very unsatisfactory condition and required alteration. For himself, he took a much wider view of the question than that indicated in his Notice. Their Lordships might not be aware that there was no law existing which compelled notice to be given either to the Board of Trade, or any other authority, by the owners of vessels leaving any of the ports of England laden with
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  gunpowder; and, that being so, he wished to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they did not deem it right and advisable to consider the expediency of enforcing the construction of proper magazines on board merchant ships for the stowage of gunpowder, and to direct that the officers of the Board of Trade should supervise them from time to time? The Board of Trade might answer, and very probably would—" Why should we not call upon the River Conservancy, who are the local authority, to see to the construction of these magazines, and to supervise them by a proper Inspector? " With all respect to the Board of Trade, he could not help thinking that this was rather an Imperial concern, than a matter to be left to local management and local inspection. When they considered the extent of the shipping of the country in many of their ports, and the lives and property that were at stake, they surely ought not to be content with the supervision that might be exercised by the local authorities. They ought certainly to look to the Imperial power for the enforcement of regulations of this character, and ought not to be satisfied without it. Now, a word as to the notice. In the case he had mentioned, there was no notice; but a relation of one of the passengers on board the Pereora, who appeared to have been alarmed at this taking in of gunpowder, made it his duty to go, first, to the Inspector of the Conservancy Board, and then to an Inspector of the Board of Trade; and after much running about from one to the other, craving mercy for his friends on board, he was told by the Board of Trade Inspector that he could do nothing; and the Conservancy Board Inspector told him he was powerless, there being no regulation or bye-law of either Board which would justify his action. It was quite true there was something of the nature of a magazine; but it was not such a magazine as would exist on board Her Majesty's Navy, or in any of Her Majesty's ships; and he thought he was justified in contending that if the crews of Her Majesty's ships were entitled to the protection afforded by a well-built and properly constructed magazine, the crews and passengers of the Mercantile Marine were entitled to no less care and protection. He had now touched upon the three matters which he desired, with all respect, to

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  bring before Her Majesty's Government. In order, however, to confirm what he had said about there being no bye-laws to justify interference with ships in this matter, he quoted a judgment of Mr. Rothery, one of the Wreck Commissioners, in a very important case, arising before him a short time since. In this judgment, it was pointed out that the bye-laws provided that in any ship or boat carrying a greater quantity than 300 lbs. of explosives—
  "Due precaution shall be taken by the protection of a bulkhead, partition, or otherwise, and by careful stowing, to secure the explosives from being brought into contact with any other article or substance carried in such ship or boat."
  Mr. Rothery said—
  "It will be seen that this bye-law imposes no obligation on shipowners to construct a separate compartment for explosives, but only to separate them from the rest of the cargo by bulkheads, partitions, or otherwise."
  He (Lord Truro) did not expect from Her Majesty's Government a full and complete answer to the suggestions he had made; but he thought it was a subject that ought to receive the careful and full consideration of Her Majesty's Government. He hoped next Session to revive the subject, and he trusted the suggestions he had offered would receive that consideration which was their due.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, that at the present moment the Board of Trade had no information regarding the Pereora. He should be very glad to make a full statement as to the law and the regulations concerning the shipment and stowage of gunpowder and other explosives, if the noble Lord would give him a little longer Notice; but he would immediately lay on the Table of the House copies of the bye-laws of the Thames Conservancy Board, and also copies of the instructions issued by the Board of Trade on this subject. The Thames Conservancy Board proposed, after consultation with the Board of Trade, to amend one or two of their bye-laws so as to secure the hoisting and carrying of a red flag when ships were taking in gunpowder or explosives, or when they were laden with gunpowder and explosives. This would insure greater safety to life and property. He could only further say that the attention of the Board of Trade had been given to this subject constantly. It was a subject beset with all kinds of difficul-
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  ties. On the part of the Board of Trade, he had to thank the noble Lord for drawing public attention to it.

THE ISLAND OF CYPRUS—THE FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNasked Her Majesty's Government for a statement of the details of the financial arrangements concluded with the Porte in regard to the Island of Cyprus? In the Convention dated the 4th June last, between Great Britain and Turkey, the following paragraph occurred:—
  "It is agreed that England will pay to the Porte whatever is the present excess of revenue over expenditure in the island, this excess to be determined by the average of the last five years, stated to be 22,936 purses."
  He wished to have an explanation of the expression "excess of revenue over expenditure;" because, as it appeared to him, these words were capable of more than one interpretation. There were other financial points about which he hoped Her Majesty's Government would give some information. At the present time they knew very little about the Island of Cyprus, and Her Majesty's Government had admitted that they could not add much to their information; but what little they did know, he believed their Lordships would be of opinion, was not of a highly encouraging character. They knew that the administration of that Island had been distinguished for corruption, rapacity, and, he might say, almost all the faults of which an Administration was capable. They knew that the population had been dwindling. He believed at one time the population amounted to 1,000,000 souls; but under the benefits of Turkish rule, they had dwindled away to 150,000 or 250,000 persons—he was not sure which. They knew also that the cities were in ruins. They knew that the cultivators of the soil had been harassed by arbitrary exactions. They knew that commerce had been driven away from the Island. They knew that the harbour, or whatever used to represent a harbour, had been silted up; and they also knew that even the wells were filled up, and that all sanitary precautions had been neglected. He believed there were now no roads, or only very bad ones, in the Island. This was the Island we had un-

  19
  dertaken to administer. At the first start, and for a very considerable time afterwards, the Government would find plenty to do there, and he would venture to say that when the bill came to be paid, they would find that it would have to be paid, not in hundreds of thousands, but in millions of pounds. The question was, where were these millions to come from? He should have thought that when England undertook the administration of this Island, and to guarantee the Eastern frontier of Turkey in Asia, she took upon herself a responsibility that was serious enough. He should have thought, when she found herself obliged to take, or to ask for, a military position from which she might be able to discharge the responsibility which she had assumed, that she might reasonably have expected that the Power she had undertaken to protect would only have been too glad to hand over that position to her without cost. He thought that if any Turkish statesman had been asked two months ago whether Turkey would hand over the Island of Cyprus free of cost on condition that England would guarantee the Eastern frontier of Turkey, he would have said at once that he would hand over not only Cyprus, but Crete, and half the Islands of the Archipelago. But the arrangement, they were told, was that England was to pay to the Porte the present excess of revenue over expenditure in the Island, and that that was to be calculated on an average of five years. It was stated to be nearly 23,000 purses. That was the statement of the English Government; but perhaps their Lordships would like to hear what was the official statement of the Turkish Government on the subject. On the 11th July, Router's telegraph agency sent the following official statement from Constantinople:—
  "In virtue of the Treaty for the British occupation of Cyprus, England engages to pay to the Porte annually £150,000 sterling, whereas the present revenue is only £120,000."
  He was not going to ask them to attach any serious importance to this official statement, as they all knew what Turkish official statements were. But, at the same time, that was the view which the Porte professed to take of the Treaty, and that was the view he hoped would not be taken when we came to verify
  20
  the revenue of the Island. These words, "the present excess of revenue over expenditure," might mean a great deal. He should like to know, in the first place, what was meant by the word "revenue?" What he understood by the word "revenue," was any excess which might exist from the amount raised by taxation in the Island, after defraying the whole expense of civil administration in the Island; but he should think there was very considerable doubt whether, in this sense of the word, Turkey had ever received any full revenue from the Island of Cyprus for many years. This meaning of the word revenue would contradict Turkish practice in two points. In the first place, it was not the custom of Turkey to tax her subjects in the sense in which we used the word, nor her custom to pay the expense of administration. What she did was to exact from her subjects, by means of her officers, as much as she could, without being very particular as to the manner in which the money was raised, and then to leave her officials to pay themselves, no doubt, by taking another squeeze of the Cyprian orange. He should like to know whether these 23,000 purses were really the revenue which had found its way to Constantinople, after all the expenses of Government had been defrayed. That was a matter which he thought it would be very difficult for Her Majesty's Government to verify. In the next place, he should like to ask, was this charge to be a first charge upon the revenue of Cyprus? It was not stated whether England was to defray all the expenses out of the surplus or not; or what amount should be paid over to the Turkish Government. The construction which he put upon the words — and the construction which it seemed to him they were intended to bear—was this, that the Turkish Government having, during the last 25 years, derived 23,000 purses from the Island, we were to guarantee that sum without taking into consideration the expenses that might be afterwards incurred. If so, all he could say was that it was a very bad bargain for us to have made. He believed that it was a fact that, for a considerable period, there had been no surplus of revenue whatsoever over the expenses of administration. The Island had been reduced to a very

  21
  poor condition; and the result was that for a number of years it would be found necessary to limit considerably the amount of taxation which would ultimately have to be levied. He would like to know, then, whether the Government could give any idea of the deficiency likely to arise, and whether, whilst there was a deficiency, it was intended to make any payment to the Porte? They must recollect that England was sending some thousands of troops to the Island. Was the pay of these men, kept there to watch over the Eastern frontier of the Porte, to be defrayed by Turkey or by England; and, in the latter event, was England also to make payment to Turkey out of the revenue of Cyprus? It must be remembered that England would have to incur very heavy expenditure for the digging out of harbours at Famagousta and elsewhere, for the making of roads, and for other works. Was it intended that those charges should fall on the British taxpayer; and, if so, what arrangements had been made as to the manner in which those charges were to be met in the possible event of England restoring Cyprus to the Porte? These were a few of the questions which had suggested themselves to him on reading the 3rd clause of the Treaty—questions upon which he thought the House would be glad to receive some information.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The object of Her Majesty's Government in making this agreement with the Porte was that the Porte should not be financially the worse for the part it has undertaken—that is to say, that the amount of the surplus of revenue— whatever it may have been—for the last five years, after all expenditure civil and military has been defrayed, shall still continue to flow into the coffers of the Porte. That seems to me to be a very fair arrangement, and it was especially incumbent upon us when we remember that what the Porte receives from Cyprus, as well as from other places, is already pledged to the bondholders of the Porte; so that, perhaps, it might have been considered a questionable proceeding if we had induced Turkey to hand over the surplus to us. There are no detailed arrangements between us which I can lay upon the Table, because none such have as yet been agreed
  22
  to; and until we receive the Report of the Administrator, Sir Garnet Wolseley, it is impossible to give any information upon official authority, because before his arrival there was no official authority to ascertain it. Now, the noble Earl appears to take a very gloomy view of our engagements. I will not attempt to compete with him in the matter of prophecy; but I would just point out to him that if the falling-off of revenue has been as great as he appears to imagine, it will be all the better for England; because, henceforth, the revenue will be honestly collected, and the surplus will, consequently, be that much larger than it has been. In the same way, if the resources of the Island have been terribly neglected, and the springs of its prosperity allowed to run to waste, it will be all to the advantage of an honest and capable Government which will produce from the Island the revenue it ought to yield. But upon all these matters the Government are awaiting information. I am far from admitting that that which we do possess are of the gloomy character depicted by the noble Earl. I believe the Island will be as capable in the future, as it has been in the past, of maintaining a large population, and where there is a large population there must necessarily be a large revenue.
  EARL GRANVILLE: Although the Question put by my noble Friend (the Earl of Camperdown) appears a very reasonable and prudent one, I apprehend he was scarcely sanguine enough to expect much more information than he has obtained. The fact is, the Government have adopted a system of secrecy which I never remember before in the practice of Her Majesty's Government on questions of this sort. Her Majesty's Government negotiated an Anglo-Turkish Convention, and signed and ratified it in complete secrecy. They alleged that reasons of high policy made that necessary; but now that the Convention is concluded, now that it has been presented to Parliament, what is the information which they vouchsafe us? We have not the slightest inkling, so far as I am aware, of any communications having taken place with other Powers. We do not know even how the Turkish Government itself received the proposal. My noble Friend thinks that, perhaps, the Turks were only too glad to get rid of an Island that had become a burden to

  23
  them; but I should like to know whether they were so rejoiced, or whether they received the proposal with considerable indignation? On this point we know absolutely nothing. The same perfect system of secrecy is observed in regard to all the arrangements in connection with this agreement with the Turkish Government, and in regard to the decisions which Her Majesty's Government has taken as to the future administration of the Island. I may say, too, that the same secrecy has been maintained as to the very hopeful account which the noble Marquess has given of the state of the Island; for, so far as I am concerned, the only help he has given me on that point was to refer me to a book which did not contain any information on the subject, and which has been the only source open to me. Now, in respect to the latter question, I cannot help thinking that the want of information is owing to two facts—first, that the Government did not seek for very much information before they took this important step of theirs; and secondly, that the information they had received on the different matters connected with the negotiations do not seem to them to be of a very trustworthy character. The noble Marquess talks of his hopes for the prosperity of the Island. I have not the slightest doubt that there is no Island with a tolerably good climate, and reduced by misgovernment, that would not materially profit under British rule and the expenditure of British capital. But that is not the question here. The only reason alleged by Her Majesty's Government for the purchase of the Island is that having contracted very onerous responsibilities, it appeared to them necessary that in return they should have some addition to their strength in order to enable them to meet those responsibilities. Now, it is quite clear that the question of whether the Island is fertile, or whether the roads are improving, is not in any way to the purpose; for by showing that the country is rich and fertile, or may be made so, you do not get rid of the imputation that we wished to get hold of a good portion of the spoil—an imputation put forward in certain Western countries of Europe. What we want to know is, is the Island of any use to us, as adding to our strength? No one can say that it will add to our
  24
  military or naval strength to take that which is not a good naval station; and I have great doubt—I had not at first—whether the Government can quote any opinion which they received previous to the Convention favourable to the Island in that character. For myself, I do not know a single naval officer, of high or low command, who has not pronounced against it as a naval station. The noble Earl the First Lord of the Treasury spoke for a considerable time the other evening in defence of the Ministers Plenipotentiary for having ceded Batoum, which he said had been obtained by the Russians—meaning, of course, under the Treaty of San Stefano. He said, too, that it would be very difficult for Her Majesty's Government, after the Congress had decided in favour of cession, to take steps to prevent it; but he added that after all it was not a matter of much importance, because the port of Batoum was a bad port. I do not pretend to have made myself master of the Protocols, although I have read them; but I have been unable to find the slightest trace of the Congress having come to any decision in this matter—whether they agreed to the cession or not. The question was raised, and the next person who spoke after Prince Gortschakoff was the first British Plenipotentiary, who expressed unbounded delight at the proposal which the Russian Chancellor had made. I say, however, that I am utterly at a loss to know when the decision of the Congress was taken. Again, the noble Earl said that Batoum was a wretched port—he did not use the word "wretched," but he described it to that effect. Now, I had never heard that Batoum was an indifferent port, though I certainly never believed it to be a Portsmouth; but the noble Earl went on to tell us exactly how many ships it would contain. He said it would contain three ships; but he made the further admission that it might be made to contain six, if they were as closely packed together as ships in the London Docks. Now, I do not know exactly how many ships Batoum can accommodate; but this I do know, that very recently a Turkish Fleet, consisting, not of three ships, or of six ships, but of 13 ships, with one transport, were actually in that port. That being so, I think we have some reason for asking upon what authority Her

  25
  Majesty's Government offer us the details which they put forward as the only information they have to give upon a most interesting and important subject?
  LORD HAMMONDsaid, although he did not consider the Convention between this country and the Porte to have been very artistically framed, yet it clearly showed that England had bound herself to pay between £100,000 and £150,000 a-year to the Porte, whether raised out of the taxation of the Island or not. He would like to know if the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs took any steps to ascertain what was the actual state of the expenses of the Turkish Government previously to negotiating, and before signing the Treaty. Looking to the Consular Reports of 1876, they did not find them speak very favourably of the trade and commerce of Cyprus. The whole trade of Larnaca in imports was valued at about £155,000, of which£3,500 fell to the share of British enterprize; and about £208,000 exports, of which about £35,000 were British. The trade of Limasol was about £51,000 imports, of which £2,900 were British; and about £60,000 exports, of which about £8,150 were British. They could not, therefore, consider that the commercial value of Cyprus was very great. Whatever might have been the expenses of the Turkish administration, there could be no doubt that, under the British rule, the expense of administration would be far greater, and after the payment of the tribute we had engaged to pay to the Porte—for, as far as Cyprus was concerned, we were a tributary State—we should have to provide for the expenditure of the British administration, of the British garrison, of the civil, naval, and military, establishments which it might be necessary to maintain. As regarded the latter class of expenses, it might be asked where was the necessity, after the Congress of Berlin had restored peace to Europe, to maintain in Cyprus a garrison of 10,000 men—double the number we retained in Malta? The Indian contingent of 7,000 men had been sent there, as well as three British regiments, besides engineers and other officers. When we considered, not only the expense incurred by the occupation and administration of Cyprus, but that we had also undertaken the protection of Asiatic Turkey from encroachment on the part of Russia, and had further
  26
  undertaken the protection of the Turkish subjects in Asia Minor against mal-administration on the part of Turkish authorities—for, disguise it how we might, we had. virtually undertaken such a Protectorate—and when, in return for these onerous engagements, we found ourselves saddled with the occupation and administration of an unhealthy Island, insufficiently supplied with water, without a harbour for our ships, accommodation for our garrison, or establishments for those engaged in civil administration, we could not look without grave apprehension at the prospect before us. He felt it difficult to understand how an Island in a remote corner of the Mediterranean could serve as a basis of operation against a Russian invasion of the Northeastern corner of Asiatic Turkey, or form a nucleus from which a system of good government in the interior of Asia Minor could be promoted or secured. There was another point, to which he almost shrank from alluding. We were not called upon to pronounce on the morality or immorality of measures adopted by foreign Governments; but we might properly regard our own; and, judging by our standard the course we had taken, as regarded Cyprus, we might fairly consider whether, after our solemn engagements to respect the integrity of Turkey, our participation in its spoils was not, to say the least of it, an act of questionable morality.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: The charge made against the Government by the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown), if his observations really alluded to anything, is that we have not favoured the House with sufficient information respecting the occupation of Cyprus, and the noble Earl who supported him in his remarks complained of the secrecy of the negotiations by which the occupation was carried into effect, and he laid that also as a charge against the Government. But, in fact, the two charges answer each other. It is a fact that this was a secret negotiation, and when the matter is fairly brought before the House with due notice, I shall be quite prepared, and my Colleagues also, to give very valid reasons for the secrecy of these negotiations. It is not the first secret negotiation into which this country has entered, and I shall be able to show not only by

  27
  precedent, but also, I hope, by very good reasons, that secrecy was the right policy of the Government, and that the object we had in view could not be realized except by secrecy. If secrecy were necessary, if secrecy were pursued, and if it were only by secrecy that the object of the Government could be achieved, it was quite impossible that we could make those appeals to the Turkish Government, or that the Turkish Government themselves could pursue those inquiries or make those arrangements which, had they been pursued and made, would have put an end to the secrecy. Therefore, there is no doubt, though the Treaty was signed on the 6th of June, a whole month elapsed before it was sufficiently known to enter into any inquiries which were, of course, expedient, and to make many arrangements with the Turkish Government, which are now under discussion. But, at the same time, I must say, on the part of the Government, that it is a great error to suppose that they decided upon the occupation of Cyprus without being in possession of adequate information. The House is entitled, and Parliament is entitled, to possess that information when affairs are in that state that we think these documents can be produced without injury to the Public Service, and I hope only a short time will elapse before that information may be laid before Parliament, when noble Lords will be able to bring this matter fairly before the House; and when they have the information before them, and when they bring forward their views, although they may be views opposed to the Government, we shall clearly understand what is the policy they denounce, and what is the policy they recommend. We will meet them in fair discussion, and the House will decide, and the country will decide, which is the policy they think most advantageous to the country to adopt and to maintain. That is the only general observation I can make to remarks so desultory as those I have to encounter. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) maintains that I called Batoum a "bad," and afterwards he said I called it a "wretched" port. I have no recollection of using either word.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I beg the noble Earl's pardon. I did not use the word "bad," and though I used the word
  28
  "wretched," I retracted it immediately, and said the noble Earl had used other language depreciatory of the character of the port.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: I have no objection to the noble Earl using any epithet he pleases. The noble Earl used many epithets, and lean easily understand if, in substituting another word for the first he used, he employed one which was not very felicitous, that he should have forgotten it. I believe that Batoum is neither a bad nor a wretched port. I believe it is a good port; but it is a port of very limited capacity, and that is what I wished to impress upon your minds. The statement that three considerable ships could be received in the harbour with facility was made by me upon the highest authority that I could well appeal to, one particularly acquainted with the country and the locality; and I have such confidence in the information I received from that authority that I shall not without very prolonged investigation, which may lead to a very different result, change my opinion. The same authority who said that three considerable ships might be at anchor in the port of Batoum, did say, using the expression which the noble Earl has recalled, that if they were packed as the ships were in London Docks, probably there would be room for six ships— may be eight. That was an expression used by a judge as high in such matters as could well be fixed upon; and it appeared to mo to give a picturesque and clear view of the capacity of the port. It is an excellent port, but its capacity is extremely limited. With regard to the ports of Cyprus, it is, of course, easy to pick out musty details from obsolete gazetteers, and to say "there are no ports in Cyprus;" but I venture to say your Lordships will find by this time next year that there are ports sufficient to accommodate British ships.
  VISCOUNT CARDWELL: I have never met with a more striking instance than that afforded by the speech of the noble Earl of the skill of a debater who assumes that questions have been put which have not been put, and who fails to answer those which have been actually addressed to him. Notwithstanding the questions put to the Government, we have entirely failed to extract from the noble Earl any satisfactory in-

  29
  formation. The noble Earl says he did not tell us that Batoum was a bad or a wretched port. But what did he tell us? He told us that it would only hold three ships in the ordinary course, and six if they were packed as they were packed in the London Docks. Now, what says my noble Friend beside me? He tells you that he knows or has been informed that the Turkish Admiral had there a fleet of 13 vessels, many of which were iron-clads, together with all those other ships which attend upon a fleet of that kind, transports, and so forth. The noble Earl opposite does not tell us, however, whether there is any foundation for this statement. He only repeats what he stated before; and he does not tell us what additional information he has received. There are other matters besides this. We want to know something about the revenue of Cyprus. We have made inquiries, not to-night for the first time, but on former occasions. But have we obtained any answer? None whatever. We have been left entirely in the dark. It is, no doubt, extremely kind of the noble Earl to tell us that if we only bring forward a Motion he will have an opportunity of answering us. We are extremely indebted to him. We have now reached the 23rd of July. What will be the condition of your Lordships' House by the time the noble Earl is prepared with his full official information and a debate can come on. Then there are other subjects to be taken into account besides, the details of which we are ignorant. The other night I ventured to ask the noble Marquess opposite why, if, as we had understood, Cyprus was to be made into a Crown Colony, he could have any hesitation in saying whether or not slavery was to be continued there? We have read in the newspapers—and it is really only from the newspapers that we have any information on this subject—that a high functionary had gone from Constantinople to give up the Island to a high functionary of ours, and that the British flag had been hoisted there. I certainly thought it would have been an easy thing to say—"The British flag is flying in Cyprus, and where the British flag is flying, slavery cannot exist." But what was the answer given? No answer at all. I have seen in the newspapers that Her Majesty's
  30
  Attorney General said—"Cyprus is not a Crown Colony." Then, I should like to know what it is? Surely, before we are challenged, in the emphatic manner of the noble Earl, to come down with our Resolution, we have a right to know some of the rudiments of the subject? I looked to the Treaty which has been laid upon your Lordships' Table for the best information I could get, and I found that, according to the Treaty, certainly Cyprus is to remain Turkish territory, but that its occupation and administration are to be in our hands. I want to know, then, under what law the Island is to be governed? Is it to be a country subject to Turkish law, or is it to be a country subject to English law? There are arguments on both sides; but Parliament has a right to know definitely which it is to be. In concluding these remarks, I would say we have a right to have some better assurance than we have ever yet received of the sobriety and gravity with which this undertaking has been conceived. We ought to have learned more about Cyprus from the Government than the Government has vouchsafed to us; but there seems to be some difficulty about communicating information. So far as we can learn from what has happened, Her Majesty's Government did not begin to think about this matter yesterday; they have been thinking about it for some time. Did the Government make any inquiry about Cyprus before taking it over? Did they know whether it had any harbours or not, or whether slavery existed there or not before they arranged for its cession? Did they enter upon any of these considerations which a Government was bound to entertain, and carefully examine, before making a Treaty, and before concluding it, and ratifying it behind the back, and without the knowledge of Parliament? They ought to have made themselves familiar with all these points. If they had done so, there could hardly be any difficulty about communicating them to your Lordships. Your Lordships do not know what law runs in Cyprus, or would run in it, or what liabilities we incurred when we accepted the responsibilities of it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORremarked, that the noble Viscount who had just sat down (Viscount Cardwell) had commenced his observations by referring to the skill of a debater who could assume

  31
  that Questions were put which had not been put, and who failed to answer those which had actually been addressed to him. But the noble Viscount had performed a feat still more remarkable, because he had repeated a number of Questions, and, assuming that they had been put, he complained bitterly that they had not been answered. Why, asked the noble Viscount, had no person explained whether this was a Crown Colony or not; why had no one told them what law was to be administered in the Colony; and why had no one shown on what footing the jurisdiction of the English Crown was to be exercised? Were these the Questions the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) had put upon the Paper? The noble Earl's Question upon the Paper related merely to the revenues of the Island, and there was not a word in it about whether it was a Crown Colony or not a Crown Colony, and not a word on the subject of slavery. Well, he could answer the Questions now put. They were perfectly plain, and there was not the least difficulty about them. It was the law of these countries that whenever Her Majesty possessed by Treaty with a foreign Power the right to exercise power and jurisdiction out of Her own Dominions, She might do so in the same way as in a conquered or ceded country. It was a well-established principle that where they had a conquered or a ceded territory possessing laws of its own, those laws would apply to the subjects of that territory generally until they were altered. It was perfectly well-known that British subjects in the Turkish Dominions had a right to have justice administered to them by their own laws. All these rules would, in the present instance, be attended to and faithfully observed. The noble Viscount asked a Question on the subject of slavery. He might rest assured that the course taken by Her Majesty's Government in regard to slavery would not be different in the Island of Cyprus from that adopted in other places where the laws of Her Majesty were administered. The noble Viscount then asked whether Cyprus was a Crown Colony? He would find the position of Cyprus exactly defined in the Convention. Cyprus was not a territory of the Crown in any other than in this sense— that it was an Island which, under the
  32
  Convention, was to be occupied and administered by Her Majesty according to the terms of the Convention.
  LORD SELBORNEobserved, that his noble and learned Friend had promised to answer the Questions put by the noble Viscount; but he must say that an answer more extraordinary or more totally wide of the mark, he could not conceive. The noble and learned Lord told their Lordships that they were to administer Cyprus under the Foreign Jurisdiction Act.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, his statement was that by the Foreign Jurisdiction Act Her Majesty, if She was authorized to exercise jurisdiction, had power to do so as in a conquered or ceded territory.
  LORD SELBORNEsaid, that under the Foreign Jurisdiction Act, Her Majesty's own subjects in those countries to which that jurisdiction was applicable, were under, and could avail themselves of, that jurisdiction. But he wanted to know how far that jurisdiction carried them in Cyprus, and who were Her Majesty's subjects in Cyprus? The same class of persons who, under the Foreign Jurisdiction Act, would have been subject to British law in Cyprus under the old condition of things, would still be subject to British jurisdiction in Cyprus, just as they were before the Convention was made. The power giving Her Majesty jurisdiction over Her own subjects, and authority to exercise it by Her own laws and through Her own Courts in the Turkish Dominions extended to Cyprus before the Convention was made, as it did to other parts of those Dominions. But the Island was now placed under our administration for all time to come, the condition of our remaining there being an event which nobody expected to happen—namely, the retrocession by Russia to Turkey of all the Asiatic territories she had acquired in the recent war. We were undertaking for all time to come the administration of the entire Island of Cyprus, and consequently of the whole population. We must, therefore, administer justice to all the inhabitants, whether Turks, Greeks, or the subjects of any European State; and we must determine the question of slavery, not only as to our own subjects in the Island, but as to everybody else there. By singular ingenuity we had contrived to get a cession of territory, and yet not a cession;

  33
  because, nominally, the Island would continue to be Turkish, though practically it would be English. Technically, all the Mussulmans and any non-British inhabitants who might happen to be in Cyprus were not our subjects; technically, they were Turkish subjects. He still wanted to know by what law these people were to be governed, and how the administration of justice was to be managed?
  LORD LILFORD, in reply to the remark that very little was known about Cyprus, said, he could easily furnish a list covering five pages of closely printed octavo, giving merely the names of books from about the middle of last century up to the present time. There were also later books, and he thought he might fairly say it was the fault of noble Lords opposite, if they were entirely ignorant with regard to Cyprus. He called attention to a letter in The Standard of the previous day, written by someone who was evidently acquainted with the subject. This writer quoted a book of great weight, just published at Athens—Les Iles de la Mediterrannée— by J. Jassonides—
  "We know," said the Correspondent of The Standard, "that the Greek merchants and hankers have already gone to the Island, and that the Maltese have speedily followed their example; surely this should he enough for us. We ought to know that these people, by their proximity to Cyprus and knowledge of it, would not go there en masse unless they were satisfied as to the climate, and that, under British rule, the most fertile spot in the Mediterranean would be a source of unlimited wealth to those who are first in the field."
  Then the writer quoted the following from the authority he had just named:—
  "For 40 years have I been going from Isle to Isle, ascertaining their political, commercial, and social aspect, and this Island—Cyprus—notwithstanding the barbarity of its present rulers, through which it is cut off from the rest of the world, is my favourite; it is a little world in itself—here do I wish to die. My limited means would keep me in comparative luxury. Although old, I am getting strong and feel young; no wild beasts or numerous reptiles disturb my solitude, my water is sweet and cool; but, above all, I know that my grave would be respected, and that kind hands would close my eyes."
  There was much controversy regarding the climate of the Island, and upon this point he should just quote a sentence from the Correspondent—
  "My personal experience of the Island enables me to state that in summer it does not resemble a desert; many mountains are per-
  34
  petually covered with snow, and in the summer they water the land by their numerous rivers and streams."
  He had a suggestion to make touching the financial position of the Island, which he should reserve till the noble Viscount the Under Secretary of State for War was present.

  THE TREATY OF BERLIN—THE PORT OF BATOTTM.—OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT POWEESCOUETwished to offer a few remarks upon a subject very nearly related to that they had been discussing. Some 12 years ago he travelled in Russia, and he had gone along the whole of the Southern coast of the Black Sea. In some senses, Batoum might be said to be unimportant, still he could understand the desire of the Russians to possess it; because Poti was a most wretched place, and could boast of few advantages except those that a very shallow river could give. The anchorages along the Southern coast of the Black Sea were very bad, and before she got Batoum, Russia had no harbour there except Poti. Batoum, though not a large place, was the best harbour there, and, relatively, a very important one.
CHINA—THE CHEFOO CONVENTION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to carry into effect the arrangement concerning opium, as proposed in Clause 3 of Section III. of the Chefoo Convention; and whether any further Papers connected with the Convention could now be laid upon the Table, especially the remaining portion of Sir Thomas Wade's Report, and the reply of the Indian Government to the reference made by Her Majesty's Government with respect to the Chefoo Convention? He might, perhaps, be allowed to remind their Lordships that this Convention was provisionally agreed upon in the month of September, 1876. Although it arose out of the murder of a British officer on Chinese territory, it dealt with various matters, and clearly had an important bearing upon the diplomatic and commercial relations between this country and China. The 3rd section in part related to commerce,

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  and under it China agreed to make certain concessions, especially with respect to the opening of new ports to foreign trade; while, on the other hand, England gave to China increased facilities for regulating the import of opium, for collecting the duty upon it, and for checking the evasion of the tax — an evasion which was not difficult, owing to the small compass in which large quantities of opium could be stowed. Since the time when this agreement was first formed, statements had, in reply to inquiries both in Parliament and out-of-doors, been made on behalf of Her Majesty's Government with respect to it, and especially with respect to the points referred to in the Question which he had put upon the Paper for that day. He thought the latest piece of information was that given on the 24th of last month, when it was stated that although Her Majesty's Government had decided to give a formal approval to the Chefoo Convention, the clauses relating to the collection of the opium tax were still under consideration. Now, although not many weeks had passed since that statement was made, and although we had in the interval been passing through a momentous period, he hoped that the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs might now be able to announce that the whole Treaty was, without further delay, to be fully ratified. In case it might appear to their Lordships that he needed some further justification for bringing the matter forward now, he wished to say that although it did not occupy a foremost place in politics, it was watched with considerable interest by a number of people, and that feeling had been indicated by the presentation of a Memorial last year to the noble Earl who was then at the head of the Foreign Office, strongly urging the ratification of the Chefoo Convention. The signatures to the document would show that it was one of an important and representative character. Among the signatures were those of several of the Members of that House, and also a large number of Members of the other House of Parliament. He also observed among them many names well known in the Church and at the Universities, as well as the names of many gentlemen connected with the China trade. An allusion to our trade with China might,
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  perhaps, raise the question whether the provisions of the Convention were likely to be acceptable to our merchants? Now, while there was, doubtless, some difference of opinion upon it in the commercial world, it was satisfactory to observe that several of the most important Chambers of Commerce—especially those of Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow—had expressed their approval of it. But he should like to try and lay more stress upon the feeling with which, as he understood, the matter was regarded in China, meaning, of course, in the political circles of that country. The Chinese Government had done what we had demanded of them; and, considering the Treaty as a settlement, and, on the whole, a favourable settlement, of unfortunate complications, they regarded it with satisfaction and naturally looked for a full ratification of it. They all knew the jealous nature of the Chinese, and a feeling of doubt as to our intentions might lead to reflections unfavourable to us as compared with other nations with which they were brought into contact, and cause mischief not easily removed. He could not help, therefore, earnestly hoping that no consideration of any possible risk of a subordinate character would be allowed to interfere with the full settlement of a Treaty which appeared to him to involve, in a very important degree, our best interests in China.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, the Chefoo Convention had been ratified with the exception of two provisions—the levying of likin on opium in the Custom House before delivery to the purchaser, and the definition of the port area within which likin might not be levied upon other merchandize. Considerable controversy had arisen about these two provisions. The stipulation in respect of them was that they should come into operation—that they should be fixed as soon as the British Government had arrived at an understanding on the subject with Germany and other foreign Governments. The question of levying likin interested several other Governments very much, and certainly no understanding had yet been arrived at with foreign Governments upon this matter. The Chinese, he understood, were willing to entertain negotiations for the purpose of so modifying those Articles that the necessary

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  agreement might be arrived at, and those negotiations were now going on. It would not, in the ordinary course of things, be proper to lay upon the Table the portions of Sir Thomas Wade's Report which referred to this matter; because, as long as negotiations were going on, it was not usual to lay Papers upon the Table relating to them. He was aware, however, that considerable interest was felt in the question, and certainly anything which came from Sir Thomas Wade was so able that a very natural interest was felt on the part of Chambers of Commerce to be put in possession of it. He would inquire carefully into the matter, and he hoped after a little time to be able to produce the Papers asked for by the noble Earl.
  LORD HAMMONDremarked, that the Chinese, in return for the great concessions they had made to us by the agreement of Chefoo, might naturally expect that something should be done upon our part to prevent the evasion of payment of those duties on opium which they were justly entitled to levy. The effect of the agreement would be to bring the collection of interior duties on opium under the control of the foreign inspectorate of Customs, instead of leaving it to subordinate local authorities, whose interference frequently gave occasion for serious difficulties. The Chinese Government were doubtless desirous to set up their own opium against foreign opium. In China, plenty of opium was grown, and practically the growth of it was encouraged as much as possible. It was believed that if this arrangement were carried out, it would interfere with the introduction of British opium from India into China; and, accordingly, some people in this country, with that view, desired to see the arrangement carried out. But he did not believe this arrangement would diminish the sale of opium by a single chest. The good people in this country who thought the importation of opium from India into China a crime would not, by means of this Convention, do anything to diminish the consumption of opium in China—whether Indian or Chinese grown, opium would be as much consumed as ever. In negotiating a Treaty with China the one-sidedness which characterised some previous Treaties will be avoided. It did not improve our relations with that country.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, while recognizing the value of the advice tendered by the noble Lord, which his experience entitled him to give, reminded him that really the question was one of great complication. If the agreement was merely for the levying of an existing charge, he did not think there would be much objection to the Convention. But the fear was that it would give to local officers, who were irresponsible, the power of raising and levying the charge to an enormous amount. Of course, there were some people who thought that the application of that process to opium, even if it had the effect of ruining the Indian Revenue, would still be an application of great advantage; but his belief was—that was, as far as his information went, and he had received very considerable information on the point—that, if every chest of Indian opium was excluded from China, it would have no effect in limiting the consumption of opium. Opium was grown to an enormous extent in various parts of China. The only thing to be feared was that some Chinese Governments might raise the likin to an unlimited extent, and the desire so to raise it had more to do with Protection than with any idea of morality. We could scarcely be expected to support a leaning so Protectionist.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.