Lords Sitting of 22 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Freshwater Fish Protection (155); Weights and Measures (161).
Committee—Roads and Bridges (Scotland) (157).
Report—Local Government Provisional Order (Darenth Valley) * (152).
Royal Assent—Entail Amendment (Scotland) [41 & 42 Vict. c. 28]; Monuments (Metropolis) (No. 2) [41 & 42 Vict. c. 29]; Parliamentary and Municipal Registration (Consolidated) [41 & 42 Vict. c. 26]; Bills of Sale [41 & 42 Vict. c. 31]; General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act, 1862, Amendment [41 & 42 Vict. c. 30]; Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877, Amendment [41 & 42 Vict. c. 27]; Dental Practitioners [41 & 42 Vict. c. 33]; Highways (South Wales) [41 & 42 Vict. c. 34]; Metropolis Management and Building Acts Amendment [41 & 42 Vict. c. 32]; Conway Bridge (Composition of Debt) [41 & 42 Vict. c. clxvi]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Bournemouth, &c.) [41 & 42 Vict. c. clxii]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) [41 & 42 Vict. c. clxiii]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Dawlish, &c.) [41 & 42 Vict. c. clxv]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Abergavenny Union, &c.) [41 & 42 Vict. c. clxiv].

PARLIAMENT—HOUSE OF LORDS— THE VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE EARL GRANVILLE rose to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack a Question which would not embarrass Her Majesty's Government, and in the object of which he believed he would obtain the sympathy of both sides of the House. He wished to know, Whether the noble and learned Lord would exert his influence with his Colleagues to direct the Board of Works to take the necessary measures for improving the ventilation of the House? The atmosphere

  2019
  in it had been most oppressive during the hot weather. He never knew anything more oppressive than it was on the great occasion when the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield) came down to explain and defend his Eastern policy. On the other hand, he was told that in "another place," where superior mechanical means had been adopted, the temperature had been constantly kept not higher than 70°, and the air fresh and wholesome. This was done by means of ice and a most ingenious mechanical contrivance. The delicacy which the noble Earl had lately attributed to his (Earl Granville's) nerves prevented his proposing the heroic measure of exchanging rooms with the House of Commons, though great advantages from such an arrangement would accrue to both. Their Lordships would be cool and comfortable; while, as regarded the great popular Assembly, he would defy any man, even of the most vigorous constitution, to offer obstruction in this beautiful but ill-ventilated chamber for more than a very limited number of hours. What he proposed was merely that they should humbly follow the example of the House of Commons, and have the advantage of similar scientific appliances. He knew that he might claim the authority of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack as to the reality of the evil, and as to the necessity of a thorough reform. But they differed as to certain temporary palliatives. The noble and learned Lord, with a view to their Lordships' increased comfort, ordered at 5 every evening the windows to be opened on the shady side of the House, an order which rejoiced the hearts of their Lordships, all of them being good Englishmen. It was the only idea which an Englishman had of cooling a house. But much as he admired his countrymen, he must admit that, owing to the great blessing of a temperate climate, they did not understand warming a house when it was very cold, like a Russian or a Canadian, or keeping it cool when the weather was hot, like an Indian or even an Italian. An Italian opened everything during the night, and darkened everything during the day. By following this simple process, their Lordships would keep their own House much cooler. His impression was that the effect of opening the windows of the
  2020
  House of Lords was to admit outer air often 9 or 10° hotter than that of the apartment itself. But he did not venture to press any theory of his own on their Lordships. He therefore consulted Dr. Percy, the eminent Fellow of the Royal Society, who had made this subject an especial study, and who had so long been in charge of the ventilation of the Houses of Parliament. He had a letter from Dr. Percy, showing how far he was right, and giving an additional reason against opening the windows, of which he was not aware—
  "July 19, 1878.
  "My Lord,—The supply of air to the House of Lords is wholly effected by exhaustion through numerous openings in the ceiling, and the air comes through the floor from the adjacent courtyards, which are kept cool by watering. When the windows are open, the air enters mainly through the open window spaces, and escapes through the roof without descending to the floor of the House. This is a point, in my opinion, of the greatest importance. The temperature rises after the windows are opened in hot weather; but last night the temperature was not very high in the House, and I suspect that the discomfort which, your Lordship experienced was due not so much to high temperature as to deficient supply of fresh air from below. I hope I have made this point plain, for it cannot be too strongly insisted upon.
  "I have the honour, &c.,
  "JOHN PERCY."
  Dr. Percy had also sent him a copy of the hourly temperature of the House last Thursday. From noon till 5 it was 71°; but at 5·30, when five windows were opened, the temperature was at 73°, and after 11 windows were opened at 6·30, the temperature rose to 75°. Dr. Percy was of opinion that great improvement could be made by mechanical appliances in the ventilation of their House.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had personally more experience of the temperature of their Lordships' House than, perhaps, any of their Lordships; and he, therefore, entirely sympathized with a certain amount of the complaint which the noble Earl had made in reference to the ventilation of the House. He had endeavoured to see the officer who had charge of the ventilation, wishing to ask him some questions; but, unfortunately, he was absent at the time he sought him. He could assure the noble Earl that he should endeavour to ascertain if any improvement could be made. With reference to what the

  2021
  noble Earl had said about the causes of the oppressive heat, there was not the least doubt that it was greatly owing to the fact that so large a portion of the superficial area was composed of glass, the consequence of that being that in winter they had a very cold and in summer a very hot House. Besides, the sides of the House were east and west, so that the sun was on one side in the forenoon and on the other side in the afternoon. He quite agreed with the noble Earl's theory that if they had a reservoir of cool air in a building, and wished to prevent the temperature of it rising, it was better not to introduce air which was at a higher temperature from outside; but if they had a machinery inside which was constantly raising the temperature and exhausting the freshness of the air inside, of the two evils the least was to have fresh air admitted from outside. On Thursday evening last the House was unusually crowded, and the windows were kept closed until the great crowd had assembled. He had then given orders that the windows should be opened, and he had the consolation of thinking that he had saved lives by so doing. The blinds were now kept closed to prevent the House, as far as possible, from being heated through the windows; but without some means of damping them, that contrivance was very far from being a sufficient one. The best plan of ventilation was, no doubt, to introduce fresh air from the floor, and cause it to ascend through the body of a building; but the real difficulty was not to supply fresh air from the floor, but how to counteract the heating operation on the outside glass. He would, however, make inquiries on the subject with the view of remedying the evil.

RECENT FAMINES IN INDIA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK rose to call the attention of the House to the despatch from the Secretary of State for India to the Governor General, dated the 10th of January, 1878, on the subject of the recent famine in Western and Southern India, and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they intended to lay upon the Table of the House any estimate of the number of persons who had perished by hunger, or
  2022
  its immediate consequences, in the Presidency of Madras or the State of Mysore? The noble Lord said, that before referring to the particular subject to which he had ventured to draw their Lordships' attention, he claimed their indulgence while he spoke very briefly of the recent scarcities which had occurred in India, and of the measures which had been taken to meet them. He would not go further back than the serious failure of crops which occurred in the Province of Orissa in the year 1866. In consequence of the want of timely foresight, partly on account of the want of intelligence, earnestness, and activity in the local authorities, but most of all on account of the exceptional character of the district, which was extremely difficult to get at properly, the pressure of the famine fell with unsparing severity on the population, and eventually swept off about one-third of their number—that was, about 1,000,000 souls. This result excited a feeling of amazement and remorse both in this country and in India; and the mind of the public and of the Government was very highly strung in order to meet any other emergency of the same kind which might arise. Such an emergency was not long of recurring, because in the year 1874 a very serious scarcity occurred in the Northern part of Bengal. That scarcity found the noble Earl who was then at the head of the Government of India (the Earl of Northbrook) not only forewarned but forearmed, not only encouraged by public feeling, but actually stimulated—and he might almost say menaced—by the intensity of public feeling, to use the whole of the administrative and the whole of the financial resources at his command, in order to meet the evil. Under this pressure the noble Earl continued his course with energy, firmness, and courage. Their Lordships would all remember the result. It was the first, the last, and only victory which had ever been gained over famine; and no laurels were ever more justly earned, or with more modesty borne, than those which adorned the victor of the famine of Bengal. But the effort and sacrifice necessary for the management of this great economic danger and calamity were not unattended, alas! with a sense of re-action and discouragement. The expenditure had been so great that thoughtful men not unnaturally asked themselves

  2023
  whether such ruinous expedients should be repeated; whether such sacrifices could be made, over and over again, without endangering the financial interests and prosperity of future generations, while providing, he might almost say, for the selfish preservation of existing generations? And thus, when in the year 1876 there came the dawn of a great economic calamity of so grave a nature as India had had no experience of during our reign, the emergency found the Government of India probably affected by very mixed feelings. On the one hand, there was no want of human endeavour to combat the effects of famine, and to save the lives of people committed to their charge; but, on the other hand, there was, no doubt, a resolution on the part of the Government of India to accomplish this with the greatest possible measure of economy, and they were even induced to contemplate a contingency, when an emergency might arise, on such a scale as would make it impossible for the Government of India, while making all the efforts and sacrifices possible, to attain the result of saving every life which might be exposed to the danger of famine. The condition of feeling into which he supposed the Government were thrown might be shortly illustrated from the Correspondence laid on their Lordships' Table. On the 16th of January, 1876, the following instructions were addressed to Sir Richard Temple, for the Famine Commissioners:—
  "The Government of India is resolved to spare no efforts which may to necessary and practicable with reference to the means at its disposal to save the population of the distressed districts from starvation, or from an extremity of suffering dangerous to life, but it will not sanction a course of action which must tend to demoralize the people themselves, who are passing through a time of temporary trial, and inevitably lead to the imposition of heavy and permanent burdens on the industry of the country. Even for an object of such paramount importance as the preservation of life, it is obvious that there are limits which are imposed upon us by the facts with which we have to deal. If the estimates of the local Government are to be accepted, the relief of the existing scarcity in the Madras and Bombay Presidencies, including loss of revenue, will not cost less than £6,500,000. Considering that the revenues are barely sufficient to meet the ordinary expenditure of the Empire, and that heavy additional taxation is both financially and politically impracticable, we must plainly admit that the task of saving life, irrespective of the cost, is one which it is beyond our power to undertake."
  He was quite ready to admit that there
  2024

  was a great deal of economic truth in those instructions; but, at the same time, their tenour was, in his opinion, calculated to create a certain amount of hesitation and irresolution in the minds of those charged with the administration of affairs, as to exactly how far they were justified in incurring expenditure for saving human life. In fact, the tenour of those instructions excited a great deal of attention in India; and the instructions themselves, when they reached the ears of the Government of Bombay, became the subject of discussion, which ended, on the 25th January, 1877, in the adoption of a resolution to the following effect:—
  "The letter in question, addressed to Sir Richard Temple, does not lay down any general principles by which the district officers should be guided in refusing the aid needed to preserve life, and His Excellency would view with satisfaction the issue of supplementary instructions on that point."
  The Supreme Government, thus challenged by the Government of Bombay, and having, in the meantime, taken a more careful, and perhaps a more correct, view of the methods of relief that were to be enforced, replied to the Government of Bombay on the 2nd February, 1877, in these words—
  "In regard to the duties which humanity imposes upon the Government, there has not been, and there will not be, any change of policy. We say that human life shall be saved at any cost and at any effort; no man, woman, or child shall die of starvation. Distress they must often suffer; we cannot save them from this."
  Now, whatever their Lordships might think of the prudence of that communication, there was no doubt it was an exceedingly courageous utterance on the part of the Government of India. At any rate, it was a clear, distinct, categoric statement that "no man, woman, or child should die of starvation." And now he wished to ask Her Majesty's Government how that engagement had been fulfilled—how that distinct and emphatic promise had been kept? He admitted that he put the question with some misgiving; because the noble Marquess the late Secretary of State for India (the Marquess of Salisbury) had already, in a despatch to which he (Lord Napier and Ettrick) had alluded, given it a very discouraging reply. The noble Marquess said—

  2025
  "I am not of opinion that any useful result would be obtained by instituting a special inquiry into this point, even if there was the slightest hope that trustworthy statistics could be collected as to the mortality due to famine alone."
  He regretted exceedingly to find himself at issue with the noble Marquess, for whose authority he had the greatest respect, and in whose sentiments with regard to India he had perfect confidence; but, at the same time, whilst differing from the noble Marquess, it was a consolation to him to know that the noble Marquess was also at issue with the Government of India on this point. That would be seen from a despatch addressed by the Secretary of the Government of India to the Secretary of the Government of Madras in October, 1877, in which it used the following language:—
  "As there must be some doubts about the accuracy of the returns of deaths furnished from the distressed districts during the past season, I am directed to suggest that at the end of the famine steps should be taken to take a census of selected Talooks in different parts of the famine country. It is very desirable to ascertain how far the numbers of the rural population may have been affected by the famine."
  Now, as the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) had distinctly stated that, to his mind, it was not desirable that any inquisition should be made into the subject, he desired to lay before their Lordships the reasons which induced him to press an inquiry upon Her Majesty's Government. One reason was, that he thought it was necessary for the satisfaction of the Government and the people of Madras. The Government of Madras, in dealing with the famine that had desolated their country, were not left to their own judgment. They were twice corrected and superseded by the Government of India. The first occasion of the supercession was the mission of Sir Richard Temple to Madras. Sir Richard, acting under the Government of India, imposed upon the Government of Madras his own views as to famine relief, alike as to the methods of classifying those in distress, the system of public works, and the scales of diet. To all these demands the Government of Madras—whether willingly or not, he did not know—had to accede. The second occasion on which the Government of Madras was
  2026
  superseded was when the Viceroy entirely overturned the civil constitution of the Government of Madras, and established in its place the authority of a dictator, assisted by an adlatus, in the person of General Kennedy, a Bombay officer, and certainly an officer of the highest ability and distinction. Now, considering that the Government of Madras—a very ancient Government, and one that had always shown a high sense of its responsibilities—had been called upon to make a sacrifice of its functions, that would at least be a consolation to that Government to be made aware—as it was certainly due to them they should be made aware—as to what extent the sacrifice had or had not been made in vain. He also asked that some information should be given as to the mortality in Mysore. Mysore was a name that had become rather dimmed in the memory of the present generation—it was receding, so to speak, with the distance; but, nevertheless, it was a name that was not altogether unfamiliar to living man. And if there was any part of India in which no man, woman, or child should die of hunger, he ventured to affirm that it was the Province of Mysore. The Native territory, no doubt from motives both of humanity and policy, had been taken by the British Government, its administration being placed in the hands of an Executive, consisting chiefly of members of the covenanted, but partly of uncovenanted Services—a well-trained and disciplined body. This was done in order that, a few years hence, the administration might be transferred, with confidence and safety, to Native hands. Mysore, moreover, was one of the most perfect and best organized military stations on the Peninsula of India. The station at Bangalore was occupied by troops representing every arm of Her Majesty's Service, and was always commanded by an officer of superior intelligence and ability; so that their Lordships would see that there were no lack of agents ready to spend their best energies in carrying relief to the distressed inhabitants of the Province. Again, the country was in railway communication with Madras; it was traversed in all directions by roads very superior to those in many other parts of India; there was a great number of small

  2027
  irrigation and other such works affording peculiar facilities for the employment of unskilled labour; and, above all, there was at least one large work in operation, upon which the labour of a large part of the population might have been concentrated, and by which the intensity of the famine might have been considerably mitigated. Mysore, in short, as he hoped he had shown, was a very favourable site for the employment of famine labour. Mysore was a sacred trust to England; and he wanted to know how that trust had been administered? Now, in the mouth of February, 1877, Sir Richard Temple visited Mysore, and reported to the Government of India that he considered the operation of famine relief there was going on satisfactorily. Two months later he again visited Mysore; and, having inspected and criticized the system of relief, reported as follows to his Government, on the 6th April:—
  "When the failure of season which is now going on for the third year consecutively is remembered, these numbers—that is, the numbers employed—appear very moderate, and show, firstly, that the people must be in good condition, and must have some self-sustained power; and, secondly, that the authorities are administering relief very carefully and economically. Again, the results of relief administration in Mysore will compare favourably with the neighbouring districts of the Madras Presidency. Again, I am still of the opinion expressed in my Minute, dated the 14th February, that the Government of India and the Chief Commissioner may be satisfied with the progress of relief affairs in the Province of Mysore."
  Thus they had it upon record, that the Commissioner of the Government of India, after two visits to Mysore, professed himself perfectly satisfied with the system of relief being conducted in the Province. But about five months after the second of those visits, the Viceroy, in consequence of reports which had reached him, and moved, no doubt, by a humane and intelligent curiosity, personally visited Mysore, and this was the account His Excellency gave of the state of things he found there—
  "I am forced to the conclusion that matters are even worse than I had anticipated; that the provision of proper relief works has been entirely neglected; that gratuitous relief—which had increased to an inordinate extent—had been administered in a lax and unsystematic manner; that crime had greatly increased; that people were wandering from Mysore into other districts in vast numbers; and that the mortality, both in hospitals and among the wanderers, was terrible."
  2028
  Now, it must naturally occur to their Lordships to ask what was the cause of the great discrepancy between the impressions of Sir Richard Temple and the impressions of the Viceroy himself? Was it that the system inaugurated, or, at least, approved, by Sir Richard Temple, contained the seeds of failure and disaster; or was it, that between the last visit of the Commissioner and the visit of the Governor General, the local authority had sunk into culpable indifference and neglect? He did not propose to say anything in regard to that question until it had either been ratified or disputed by the testimony of official persons. All he could say was, that the most terrible accounts had reached him, in common with many others, as to the mortality at Mysore. According to eye-witnesses, scenes the most tragical and afflicting had taken place even in the vicinity of the largest towns. He was assured, from a source in which he placed great reliance, that in the district of Tromkoor, in the State of Mysore, one-third of the population had disappeared, and that the highways and fields were full of human bones. Well, another reason why he asked Her Majesty's Government to give him the most reliable information they could command on the subject was, that the erroneous and exaggerated estimates as to the mortality now in circulation might be corrected. Dr. Cornish, the sanitary Commissioner for the Province—who, from personal knowledge, he could assure their Lordships was a gentleman of great ability, and who, he was sure, wrote under a high sense of his responsibility—estimated, in one of his Reports, that the diminution of population in the Province of Mysore alone would amount to one-fifth or one-sixth of the total number of inhabitants, which would be about 2,500,000. The sanitary Commissioner's Report—made to the Secretary of the Government on the 8th May, 1877—was as follows:—
  "I have grounds for supposing that the population of the affected districts will be reduced in 18 months' time by one-fifth or one-sixth of the number living before the scarcity commenced. This is an estimate, of course, only based on the current birth and death-rates, and the present generally enfeebled condition of the working classes in the affected districts."
  Again, the estimate formed at Madras, at the end of 1877, was that the total

  2029
  diminution of population over all the districts of India affected by the late scarcity would amount to about 3,000,000. He was bound to admit that more moderate estimates had been formed by a gentleman of very extensive experience in the affairs of India, and one who in his time had rendered important service to that country—namely, Dr. George Smith. He estimated that the loss of life in Madras, Mysore, and Bombay, might be put down at 1,500,000. On the other hand, the correspondent of The Times, writing, as he supposed, under some sense of responsibility, and with some knowledge of the facts, estimated the diminution in the Presidency of Madras at 3,000,000 souls, and that the total reduction of population in the famine districts would not be much below 6,000,000. He (Lord Napier and Ettrick) had himself estimated the loss in Madras at 600,000. He would not ventures to form any estimate as to Mysore; but if it should turn out that the diminution was less than 400,000 he would be extremely happy. The last estimate he should quote was the estimate of the Viceroy himself. In a Minute written by the Viceroy on the 12th of August, 1877, His Excellency stated—
  "In regard to the main object of relief operations—namely, the saving of human life, much, but not complete, success has been attained. In some tracts relief operations began too late. At centres of population like Madras and Bangalore, and on some of the roads leading to such centres, starvation deaths have occurred. The death-rate from cholera, dysentery, and suchlike diseases has greatly increased over large areas; but, on the whole, the worst evils of famine have so far been successfully averted over the vast tracts visited by failure of crops. According to the standard of mortality during the Orissa Famine, from 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 of people, instead of only 500,000, must have died of famine in Southern India during the year 1871 if the guaranteed railways had not existed, and if Government had incurred no outlay on relief operations."
  The estimate of the Governor General of India was, therefore, that about 500,000 people would die of famine in Southern India in the year 1877. In addition to all these estimates, the most painful and alarming of rumours had reached this country at various periods during the present year as to the mortality in other parts of India, which up to recent times had not attracted so much attention or inspired so much sympathy. Another reason which had induced him
  2030
  to ask Her Majesty's Government for information was, that the amount of mortality which had occurred during recent famines could not fail to cast a great deal of light upon the various methods of famine relief which had been attempted, upon the various classifications which had been made of the population, upon the various tests of want which had been discovered, upon the amount of wages which could be afforded and offered, upon the different descriptions of diet which had been recommended. The amount of mortality, and the methods adopted to lessen it, could not fail to throw considerable light upon the two capital questions which had been discussed by rival authorities in this country—namely, the nature of the works which afforded the best relief in times of famine to the suffering population; and also the amount of nourishment which the Native in Southern India requires to preserve him in life and working efficiency. Again, he asked the information for the satisfaction of the Government of India. Their Lordships had heard that the Government of India had admitted that it would be desirable to obtain information; and he did not think the Government of India should be disappointed in their evident wish. And, finally, he asked for information for the sake of truth. It was a valuable discipline for Governments to be obliged to tell the truth, and the whole truth, in circumstances of calamity; and it was a valuable lesson for the country also, that the people should have an unsparing and unvarnished report. Two or three nights ago he heard the noble Lord who had lately charge of the Government of India draw a lamentable picture of the condition of the suffering inhabitants of Asia Minor under the tyranny of the Porte; and he thought that his noble Friend, and some other noble Lords who spoke subsequently, contrasted the condition of the population of Asia Minor in its present trials with the state of the population which was subjected to the humane administration of the Government of India under our beloved Sovereign. When he heard that parallel, he felt that natural satisfaction with which any Englishman listened to an eulogy upon the administration of his countrymen. But a certain feeling of chillness and humility stole over

  2031
  his mind when he suddenly remembered that, in the fullness of our power in India, and in a district which for the most part had been under very humane and enlightened administration for nearly 100 years, and in the complete enjoyment of peace for nearly that period—with all these advantages, during the last year 1,000,000 people had probably died of famine. He thought it was a reflection which might inspire them with some charity towards other Governments and Administrations far less favourably placed. He also thought Her Majesty's Government was bound to tell the truth, and the whole truth, as far as they possibly could, respecting this calamity, to the people of England, because Her Majesty's Government had recently silenced one of the voices of the people of India. It was far from his intention to vindicate the Native Press of India in all times and in all respects; but, at least, that Press was one channel and agency by which they could occasionally be told the truth about such matters as were connected with the famine, although it was also very frequently employed in the dissemination of error, delusion, and dissension. The House might now think that he had urged valid and substantial reasons for asking Her Majesty's Government to tell the truth, and the whole truth, upon this matter; but his request would certainly be an unreasonable one if the information which he asked for was impossible of being obtained. The noble Marquess, who was recently Secretary of State for India, in a long and ably-worded paragraph in the despatch he had alluded to, argued that it was impracticable to give this information. Now, he (Lord Napier and Ettrick) did not think that an approximation was impracticable, and he would give them his reasons for it. Two methods were in use for estimating the loss of life. One might be called the census method, and the other the death-rate method. The census method might be thus described. The population of a particular district or town was ascertained or estimated by a local authority, and the normal increment was also estimated. The population being thus known on 1st January, 1877, the population enumerated on 1st January, 1878, was compared with it, and the diminution set down to the charge of the
  2032
  famine. That was the system on which had been framed some of those very high and, as he thought, exaggerated, estimates to which he had alluded. No account was taken of any emigration, though nothing was more certain than that one of the first results of famine in a district was the desertion of it by those who were in a position to remove elsewhere. There was a period in the history of a famine when all the bonds which united society were suddenly dissolved, and when the population either sat down on the floors of their cottages to die, or were dispersed to the four winds. It was impossible, therefore, to arrive at correct statistics by comparing the population at one time with the population at another. The death-rate method was far more correct. By it they took the number of deaths in a year, or the average number of deaths in a series of years. They compared the number of deaths registered in the previous year with the number of deaths registered in the famine year; and, after deducting the number of deaths from cholera, or any specific disease particularly prevalent, they set down the difference of deaths in the famine year compared with the number of deaths in the previous year to the charge of the famine. The noble Marquess had stated in his despatch that this method was not a fair one, for this reason—that in ordinary years the deaths were not accurately registered—the full number was not registered; whereas in the famine year, the vigilance of the authorities being peculiarly addressed to the task, all the deaths would be registered; and that, therefore, the excess of registered deaths in a famine over an ordinary year did not really mean the number of deaths directly or indirectly caused by the famine. He (Lord Napier and Ettrick) firmly believed that this was an error. He admitted that the registration was not complete; but statisticians in India knew what number it was necessary to add to the normal registration in order to represent the real number. He affirmed that the registration of deaths in a famine year was far less complete than in an ordinary year. First of all, because the Native authorities, who looked after it, were overborne with the quantity of other business they had to perform; secondly, because they were

  2033
  in a state of consternation, and were interested, in some degree, not to swell the number of the deaths of the poor people; and, thirdly, because a number of the starving people left, and died in other districts. He, therefore, contended that this method of estimating the number of deaths was more likely to represent a smaller than a larger mortality than the actual one. Such, he knew, was also the conviction of a great number of persons who were versed in these things. He thought, therefore, that by an appeal to the death-rate method a very fair approximate return might be made of the number of persons who had died by famine. In bringing this matter before their Lordships, he had not in the least degree been impelled by a desire to criminate either Her Majesty's Government or the authorities in India. On another occasion he had admitted that all the measures that had been adopted by the Head of the Government, and supported by the noble Marquess who was lately Secretary of State for India, and the measures that had been adopted in India, had been calculated to promote the welfare of the people of India, and to cement the connection of England with India by new and more powerful bonds; and he certainly desired now to do justice to the authorities to whom the destinies of India were committed. He recognized the ability and efforts of the Viceroy, of Sir Richard Temple, of the Duke of Buckingham, and of our many other officials, English and Native; but all the best efforts of men, in either high or subordinate positions, would not save us from calamitous results, due in part to erroneous resolutions and measures conscientiously adopted; due in part to the friction of a complicated system of government; and due in part to the incapacity of some individuals, accidentally intrusted with public functions repugnant to their inclination, or above their strength; but due, above all, to natural forces operating with overwhelming power. If these calamitous results had not occurred, let the Government say so, and no one would rejoice more than he; but if they had occurred, it was not consistent with a policy of morality that a vast number of humble human lives—lives of Her Majesty's subjects—should disappear like drops of rain upon a distant sea, unnoticed, unlamented,
  2034
  and unknown. He asked the Question of which he had given Notice.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that when the noble Lord gave Notice of the Question he had addressed to the Government he understood that he was going to call attention to the despatch of the former Secretary of State for India, and to ask a Question in relation thereto; but the only part of his Notice to which the noble Lord had given little attention had been the despatch of the noble Marquess who preceded him in the India Office, and he had, therefore, left their Lordships in ignorance of the difficulties which the noble Marquess had pointed out as being in the way of getting at the truth. He (Viscount Cranbrook) positively denied that there had been, on the part of the Government, either a desire or endeavour to conceal anything in respect to these matters. The mere fact, that one of the last acts of his noble Friend, his Predecessor in the India Office, was to appoint a Commission to inquire into everything that had taken place, with the view of preventing any such calamities in future, or mitigating them if they occurred, would show that the noble Marquess had not been in the least insensible to the great catastrophes that had occurred in Southern India. The question to be decided was, was it possible to arrive at any accuracy in this matter; and, if it was not, was it desirable that they should prematurely put before the country inaccurate statistics with respect to these famines? The noble Lord quoted one sentence from the despatch in which it was admitted to be one of the first duties of a Government to save a people under its care from starvation; and this was a duty which was certainly undertaken with great wisdom and energy by men of character and ability fitted for the duties imposed on them, who were spread over the famine districts and who greatly mitigated the distress. There was a failure at Mysore in the early period of the distress, but that remissness was censured by the Governor General of India; and the noble Marquess who was Secretary of State for India concurred in the unfavourable notice taken by His Excellency of the management of some of the officers at Mysore. There was no concealment in what was

  2035
  said about what happened. The Viceroy himself went into the famine districts there and put a stop to the mismanagement. The noble Lord said the Government were under a greater obligation to tell the truth, because they had silenced the Native Press. But the Press was free to write as it liked about the deaths by famine. If the Native Press could afford the Government accurate information, the Government would be only too glad to get it. It seemed to be supposed that nothing had been done. Statistics, however, were being collected in India, and no time would be lost in placing them, when as complete as they could be made, before the House. A few days ago his hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India moved for these Papers in the House of Commons, and on this day he (Viscount Cranbrook) placed them on the Table of this House, and no doubt they would soon be printed and in the hands of their Lordships. He would be deceiving their Lordships if he said they contained a full and accurate record of the facts. While they might have accurate statements in regard to one Province or famine, the information regarding another might be anything but thoroughly reliable. He admitted it with sorrow, and to a certain extent with shame, that the Government should not be in a position to meet distress in such circumstances. But the distress had been unprecedented. There had never been anything like it before. Many of the people lived in remote places, and were spread over a great area, and the very first thing they did in a famine was to emigrate from their villages and wander into the jungles in the hope of finding food; and so they disappeared from the paternal care of the Government. As had been officially pointed out, a comparison of the mortality in Southern India during the famine with that at other times was sufficient to show that the system of registration there was very imperfect, and that the number of deaths had been inaccurately stated. Where the normal mortality was unknown, it was useless to attempt any calculations having reference to the special statistics of the famine. Then there was another difficulty in the way of making any accurate estimate—namely, the extraordinary decrease of births. That, in itself, would
  2036
  account for a material diminution of population.
  LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICKsaid, that would apply to the census.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKadmitted that it would. There was, in addition to this, the element of emigration to be considered; so that the noble Lord would see that it was quite out of the power of the Government to give him any definite figures on the subject. He was ready, however, to place before the noble Lord—and, indeed, had already placed—all the information and materials which the Government itself possessed; but even then, and after all, any result arrived at must be very much a matter of speculation. He admitted that the famine had been a most sad and terrible calamity for India. The sufferings in Madras and Mysore must have been excessive; but he was rejoiced to learn, from Returns received that very day, that there were greater hopes for those districts and for Bombay than had been entertained during the past few months. The Press referred with certainty to the improved harvest prospects; and the Government were encouraged, therefore, to anticipate that a great relief would be given to the pressure of past years. By that pressure the Governors of the affected Provinces had suffered an anxiety and a strain of mind which it was impossible to exaggerate; and he felt that it was not now the desire of their Lordships to add to that strain and that anxiety. The officials had done their best to mitigate the calamity. In some respects they had been unfortunate—in some cases they had failed—still, there had been great successes and noble exertions; and although he could not say that they had put a complete stop to the famine, yet there was not a man in the country who had not done his best to put a stop to its ravages.

  FRESHWATER FISH PROTECTION BILL—(No. 155.)
  (The Earl of Morley.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, explained that several sections had

  2037
  been engrafted on the original measure by the Committee of the House of Commons. By Clause 2, it was provided that the Act, so far as was consistent with the tenour thereof, should be read as one with the Salmon Fishery Acts of 1861 and 1876; whilst Clause 5 directed that sections 8 and 9 of those Acts—which relate to fishing with light spears and other prohibitive instruments, and to using roe as a bait—should apply to trout and char in all waters within the limits of the present Bill, one of the objects of which was to make a close time for the selling, in addition to that for the catching, of trout. The 11th and principal clause referred to fresh-water fish, more generally known, as "white" or "coarse" fish. With the exception of those in Norfolk and Suffolk—which counties last year obtained local Acts of their own, and of the Thames, where the fishing was controlled by the Conservancy Board—the rivers of the country were entirely without any kind of protection for that sort of fish; and he thought it was hard upon the poorer classes, who were chiefly concerned in the preservation of freshwater fish, that their fish should not come in for some of that maternal care which Government had lavished upon the birds of the air and the creatures of the earth. Their Lordships would probably be surprised to learn the enormous interest taken in the kind of sport afforded by coarse fish. It was stated, in evidence before the Committee of the House of Commons, that there were no less than 80 fishing societies, comprising 50,000 members, in existence. At Sheffield, there were 8,000 members enrolled; in Birmingham, 3,000; and similar numbers in the great manufacturing centres. To his mind, it was of great importance that the people working in close shops and factories during the day, and sleeping in small or crowded rooms at night, should have afforded them the opportunity of indulging in a harmless and an invigorating sport on the banks of the rivers in their several localities. There was, too, a market for this kind of fish—it might not at present be a very large one, but still there was a market—and to that extent the sport, which it was now designed to protect, added to the food supply of the nation. It was generally considered by the Select Committee, that the fairest period at which
  2038
  a close time could be fixed for freshwater fish, was that from the 15th March to the 15th June, and accordingly that period had been adopted in the Bill. There were four exceptions under the 11th clause. Sub-section 3 was not to apply to the owners of any "several fishery" where trout, char, or grayling were specially preserved, destroying within such fishery any freshwater fish other than grayling; to any person angling in any "several fishery" with the leave of the owner of such fishery, or in any public fishery under the jurisdiction of a Board of Conservators with the leave of the said Board; to any person taking freshwater fish for scientific purposes; or to any person taking freshwater fish for use as bait. The 4th sub-section provided that any person catching or selling freshwater fish during the close season should be liable to a fine not exceeding 40 s., and on a second conviction to a fine not exceeding £5. The Bill did not apply to Norfolk and Suffolk.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Morley.)
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.
  (The Lord Henniker.)

  (NO. 161.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD HENNIKER,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the measure simply consolidated a number of existing Acts, some of which had been found to be obscure and in some cases contradictory. Of course, in a Consolidation Bill it was impossible to avoid introducing some new matter; but, in the present case, what new matter there was arose out of the process of consolidation itself, out of the need for removing doubts and inconsistencies and correcting mistakes, or out of certain Amendments inserted by the Select Committee of the House of Commons. That new matter would make the Bill practically complete as a consolidating measure, and would go far towards establishing an uniform system of weights and measures throughout

  2039
  the Kingdom. The Bill was brought into the House of Commons and referred to a Select Committee, who went most carefully into the measure and took evidence on the subject, the result being that the Bill now came before their Lordships in as perfect a shape as possible. A great deal of trouble was taken in drawing the Bill, and in that respect the Government were fortunate enough in securing the services of a gentleman who was not only acquainted with the legal questions concerned, but was well versed in the scientific part of the subject. It was, therefore, very doubtful whether at any other time, or under any other circumstances, the matter could have been dealt with more satisfactorily. The Bill, it would seem, gave a more scientific definition of the various standards in use; and it laid it down most clearly and distinctly that only one standard—that was, the imperial standard—should be used in all the trades of the country. Although a consolidating measure, the Bill did not interfere with any of the old jurisdictions except in the way of laying down certain rules for the proper performance of the duties cast upon them. The metric system was practically recognized in the Bill, but without making it part of the imperial system of standards. Those who advocated the metric system should, he thought, be content with what was given in the Bill; for if it were found to work well, no doubt their argument for its general introduction would be very much strengthened. On the other hand, if it were not found to work well, there would not have been any disturbance of existing arrangements. The Bill, at any rate, went far enough in the direction of the metric system for the present. The chief object of all legislation on this question should be the maintenance of just dealing between buyer and seller; and in the present Bill that was secured without unnecessarily disturbing existing methods or arrangements, and without undue interference with local authorities. He believed that the Bill would place not only the law, but the whole system of weights and measures, on a more satisfactory footing.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Henniker.)
  LORD COLCHESTERobserved, that it was now eight years since the Royal
  2040
  Commission appointed to inquire into this subject had concluded their work; and as one of those who had taken part in it, rejoiced that the Government had at length introduced a measure of this kind. He only regretted that as it in some respects went beyond mere consolidation, it did not go further. As contracts were legalized in terms of the metric system, and provision was now made for verifying metric standards, he did not see why metric weights and measures should not be allowed to be used for the purposes of trade, where both buyer and seller desired it. The only precaution necessary, besides stamping them with their proper denominations, would be that they should be of a different shape or material from any imperial measures. He also thought that the clause relating to boroughs not having separate quarter sessions should be imperative, rather than permissive, as those small municipalities had no particular fitness for acting as local authorities in regard to weights and measures, many of their members being tradesmen, whose own weights and measures required vigilant inspection. He also wished that the Board of Trade had taken the power of initiating bye-laws to be pressed on the local authorities, instead of simply allowing them to submit bye-laws for the Department's approval, as he believed great advantage would result from the drawing up of model bye-laws by the Department. He also deprecated the obsolete system of annoyance juries and the powers of Courts Leet over inspection. He trusted the Bill would be a prelude to, not a substitute for, a bolder and more comprehensive measure dealing with the subject.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he had no desire to detain their Lordships; but there was one point in connection with the subject under discussion to which he desired to call their Lordships' attention. The Bill did not contain any provision for remedying the system under which the local standards in Ireland had to be sent over to this country for examination. It was necessary that these standards should be sent over to London in the custody of a sub-inspector of police and a police constable; and as this had to be done at stated intervals—namely, every five years—it became in itself a very expensive business.

  2041
  When the standards reached this country they had to remain a considerable time before verification. The money for the expense thus incurred had to be voted by the Grand Jury of each county out of the county cess, and frequently it was a heavy charge. He had made inquiry the other day what the charge was in his own district, and he found that the sum of £29 was paid last year out of the county cess for this purpose; the standards being sent over to England in charge of a sub-inspector of police and a constable, who were in London three weeks doing nothing, while the standards were waiting to be properly verified. If he were to put the average cost at £35 in each of the 32 counties, this would make a total of £1,120 every five years, or an average of £224 a-year. What he had to suggest to his noble Friend who had charge of the Bill was that some means should be found of lessening this expense to Ireland. It might easily be done by the present Bill, and it was not a new question, because the matter had been brought under the attention of the Government before, but the suggestion was not carried out at the time, as it was held that the period was inopportune, and that they should wait until the whole subject could be legislated upon. Well, the time had now arrived when they were proposing to legislate on the whole subject; and he, therefore, suggested to his noble Friend (Lord Henniker) that standards should be established in Dublin which should be the imperial standards for the rest of Ireland, and that these standards should be subject to verification every five years in England. This would save a great deal of money in the shape of travelling expenses, and it would also save a great waste of time. In saying this, he would draw attention to Clause 37 of the Bill, from the perusal of which it appeared that it was quite in the power of the Board of Trade to deal with his proposal as to Ireland in the present measure. The clause set forth that the Board of Trade should cause to be prepared standards, to be verified in such places as the Board might think fit, where they might correct the standards of any local authority. Now, if this clause would allow the Board of Trade to establish standards at such places as Manchester and Liverpool, where the standards of
  2042
  the local authorities might be verified without the expense of coming to London, the same course might be taken with regard to Ireland, by establishing similar standards for verification in Ireland. He hoped his noble Friend would see the necessity of doing something for the purpose of extending this privilege to Ireland. If this suggestion were not agreed to, he should be prepared to move an Amendment when the Bill got into Committee; but if his noble Friend could give him any assurance that the suggestion would be entertained, it would be unnecessary for him to take that course.
  EARL FORTESCUEdesired to call the attention of their Lordships to the peculiar character of the legislation in this country. He rejoiced that three years after the Report of the Royal Commission that was appointed to investigate the subject a consolidated statute was passed, which was likely to be of great value to Continental countries in reference to this subject. Having himself taken some part in carrying that measure, he naturally felt some interest in the matter. An Act to render permissive the use of the metric system of weights and measures had been passed; and although the question had rather retrogaded than advanced in public favour within the last few years in this country, yet in other countries the system had extensively been adopted. It had been adopted absolutely throughout Germany, Italy, Spain, and other countries, altogether containing a population of more than 200,000,000, and permissively in various others, such as the United States, &c.; but this country—a country carrying on the largest commercial transactions in the world—had, as yet, refrained from adopting it. He held that the metric system had become more and more necessary to England under her system of Free Trade; because she was the great depôt for merchandize of all sorts from all the countries of the world. It certainly did seem to be a matter for great regret that, while the Act rendering the use of of the metric system legal for contracts was embodied in the present Bill, yet, practically, the use of those weights and measures could not be rendered conveniently available, because no unverified weights and measures could be legally used, and under the Bill metric weights and measures

  2043
  could only be verified for scientific purposes—it being expressly provided that they were not to be verified for trade purposes. It was suggested that it was desirable for metric weights and measures to have a different shape to the ordinary weights and measures prescribed for them by law, in order that they might be easily distinguished from each other; but this seemed hardly a valid reason for referring those who had occasion to verify contracts and dealings, which they could legally make under the metric system, to a table such as that contained in the Bill, instead of to metric weights and measures verified by the standard recognized in the Bill. The metre was one of the measures most used under this system, and in order to verify the metre, recourse was to be had to an equivalent in British dimensions, which was set forth as 1 yard 1·3708 inches; giving four places of decimals. He thought that in legalizing contracts on the metric system Her Majesty's Government should have sanctioned the adoption of the metre itself, which was a measure now in use among upwards of 200,000,000 of the inhabitants of the globe. With regard to the litre, on which the metric measure of liquids was based, considering the large proportion of fluids sold under the metric system, how unnecessarily difficult was the equivalent given in Britsh quantities rendered as 1·76077 pints, with no less than five places of decimals, while the gramme, which was the foundation of the metric system of weights, was equally rendered by five places of decimals. He could not help expressing a hope that Her Majesty's Government might see their way to sanctioning some rather more convenient mode of verifying contracts than the legalizing of equivalents such as he had just read from the Bill, and which extended to so inconvenient a number of decimals. He did not wish to detain their Lordships longer than by saying that he fully endorsed what his noble Friend had said as to the small municipalities. In Devonshire there was a number of very small ones; and he did not see that because they enjoyed the privilege of quarter sessions, that places containing less than 4,000, and some less than 3,000, inhabitants, should have quite such extensive powers confined to their petty local authorities as were to be preserved to them by the
  2044
  present Bill. On the whole, however, the Bill was one which he regarded as a very valuable measure, and the last thing he would do would be to make any attempt to delay its passing.
  LORD HENNIKERremarked, that the Board of Trade had had the assistance not only of scientific men in preparing the Bill, but they had also had the most valuable information collected by the Royal Commission of 1870, over which his noble Friend behind him (Lord Colchester) had presided. He was glad that his noble Friend approved of the Bill, although he wished it to go further than it did. The Commission obtained a great variety of valuable information; and if his noble Friend desired to bring forward any Amendments, they would have the consideration of the Board of Trade. With regard to the point that had been brought forward by another noble Lord (the Earl of Donoughmore), he might say that no doubt, under the 37th clause of the Bill, what the noble Earl proposed might be carried out, provided there was no substantial objection against it, and it was possible that there might be such an objection on considerations of finance. He could not give the noble Earl more specific information at present; and he would suggest that the best way would be for the noble Earl to put down what it was that he desired to include in the Bill, so that it could receive due consideration before the Bill went into Committee.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  (The Lord President.)

  (NO. 157.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 to 36, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 37 (Roads formerly turnpike not wholly situated in one county or burgh).
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNtook exception to sub-section C. He said, the Bill proposed to re-value the debts on turnpike roads; and he wished to submit that the proper course to be taken was, that after the debts were re-valued any

  2045
  assets belonging to the trusts, in the shape of toll-houses, gates, and other property, should be sold, and the proceeds applied to the diminution of the debts, as far as such proceeds would go, the nett debt being then divided, as the Bill proposed, between the counties and burghs interested. But the proposition made by sub-section C appeared to him to be highly objectionable, inasmuch as it proposed a very different distribution of the assets of the turnpike trusts. It proposed that the assets should be given freely to the new trustees, or managing bodies of the roads, in the counties, and the municipal authorities in the burghs, and divided between the two simply according to the principal of local situation. It seemed to be forgotten that the property was not theirs; that the toll-houses were not built by them; and that neither of the two new bodies had been called on to maintain them. The road trustees, who were the landowners in counties and burghs, were called on to pay the debts; and, therefore, it appeared to him the proper course that the usual method should be observed in this matter—the plan which he believed had been followed in England—namely, that all the assets should be realized, and applied to the reduction of the debts. He would put a case, with the view of illustrating what he meant. Let them suppose an instance in which there was a debt of £1,000 on a turnpike road, and that there were toll-houses and gates on the road to the value of £300. The natural supposition would surely be, that when the trust came to an end the £300 should be realised, and the £1,000 debt thereby reduced to £700; whereas the proposal contained in this Bill was to give the £300 away to the new bodies, and to assess the whole of the £1,000 on the landowners. This proceeding appeared to him to be a most extraordinary one, and he submitted that it ought not to be sanctioned by the House.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONregretted that he could not altogether agree with the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Camperdown). To a certain extent he saw the force of the objection the noble Earl had raised; but to accept the principle which he had put forward with reference to this point would be to entirely depart from the lines on which the Bill had been drawn. By Clause 44 the landowners would get
  2046
  the benefit of the toll-houses and property sold; but the noble Earl's proposal, as far as he could gather, was to provide that all those houses should be sold compulsorily. Now, the provisions of the Bill were based on the proposition that it might be in some cases useful and advisable that the toll-houses should be retained; and it should be remembered that the exact proportion of the debts and the money that might be produced was to be decided by the Debt Commissioner, who was to be called in for that purpose. He thought that on reflection the noble Earl would see that in some cases it might well happen that the road trustees ought not to be required to sell at once, but should act voluntarily and justly between all parties.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that according to the Bill as it stood, the toll-houses would be sold, and the purchasers would purchase from whom? Not from the turnpike trustees, nor the persons who had to pay the debt, but from the new managing body, and the result would be that the money paid for the toll-houses would go, not in the reduction of the debt, but simply to the bodies to whom they were to be transferred.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHquite agreed with the noble Earl opposite; and thought it never could have been intended that when the toll-houses were sold they should go towards the ordinary yearly expenses of the new body, but that any sum realized by their sale should be applied to the payment of the debts due from the trustees. He wished to add that some alarm had been expressed by different persons as to the wording of the clause. The sub-section said—
  "All lands, heritages, works, and buildings belonging to the trust locally situated within any county or burgh shall be the property of the trustees of such county or local authority of such burgh, within which the same are so situated, or the trustees having the management of such road, as the case may be, and shall be applied and used or may be sold and disposed of under the powers and for the purposes of this Act."
  His understanding of the nature of the Bill was that all the property of the old trustees should be transferred to the new trustees, not as their absolute property, but merely as a transfer in trust to them, and that then they should exercise the powers given by the Bill,

  2047
  He would, therefore, propose to strike out of the clause the words "shall be the property of," and insert the words "shall hereafter be transferred to."
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was willing to accept the Amendment of the noble Duke.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 38 to 40 agreed to.
  Clause 41 (List of highways to be made up. Alteration of list).
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNpointed out that, as the clause stood, the result would be that any roads added to the list of public roads within the last two years would not be maintained out of the public funds. He, therefore, moved to omit the words "for not less than two years."
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had no objection to the omission of the words referred to.
  Amendment agreed to; words struck out.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 42 to 88, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.
  Clause 89 (Special provision for highways in counties of Lanark and Renfrew).
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he had set down upon the Paper a variety of Amendments to the clause; but he was of opinion, on reading them over thoroughly, that they would not stand against the previous ruling of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. He would, however, ask the House to pass one Amendment. If they would not consent to restore the Bill to its original state, he hoped they would agree to strike Clause 89 out of the Bill. He had noticed that the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Buccleuch) had that evening presented another Petition against the clause; and if it were omitted the counties of Lanark and Renfrew, and the City of Glasgow and the adjacent townships, would be left to be dealt with in the same way as other counties and burghs in Scotland. If the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) still objected to this measure of
  2048
  justice to the people of Glasgow, he had only to say that he (the Earl of Rosebery) should not again put the House to the trouble of dividing upon it.
  Moved to omit Clause 89.—(The Earl of Rosebery.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he could not agree with the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosebery) in thinking that the omission of the clause would be a measure of justice to Glasgow; because he believed the effect of it would be to prevent the Bill from passing through their Lordships' House that Session, and, consequently, would have to be brought once more under discussion, a measure to which everybody had been looking forward as a settlement of a much vexed question. The noble Earl must be fully aware that the subject had been before the public for many months, and that it had been discussed and considered in every possible shape. The other House had agreed to the insertion of the clause now under discussion, believing that it would put an end to a state of things which all persons connected with Scotland were of opinion should be settled with as little delay as possible. He was not quite certain whether, even if he were to satisfy the noble Earl by striking out the clause, it would not be a breach of the Privileges of the other House to do so; at any rate, though he thought this proposition quite capable of being argued, and of being argued successfully, he based his opposition to the Amendment on the fact that such a mode of dealing with this very complicated question of the roads in the vicinity of Glasgow was one which Her Majesty's Government thought not conformable to the interests of all parties. Therefore, he regretted that he was obliged to disagree with the proposal of the noble Earl.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 90 and 91 agreed to.
  Clause 92 (Trustees to have power to make bye-laws) omitted.
  Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments,
  Page 67, line 30, Schedule C (Sections of 1 and 2 Will. 4, c. 43, referred to in foregoing Act) added.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received To-morrow.
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.