Lords Sitting of 8 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Foreign Jurisdiction* (147); Idiots, &c. (Ireland) * (148); Marriage Preliminaries (Scotland) * (149).
Second Reading—Statute Law Revision * (114); Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877, Amendment (139).
Committee—Report—Parliamentary and Municipal Registration (Consolidated) * (125).
Report—Telegraphs * (142); Metropolis Management and Building Acts Amendment * (145); Local Government Provisional Orders (Abergavenny Union, &c.) * (116); General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act, 1862, Amendment * (124).
Third Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (Dawlish, &c.) * (121), and passed.

CRIMINAL CODE (INDICTABLE OFFENCES) BILL.—QUESTION.
LORD SELBORNEsaid, he wished to ask his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack a Question relating to a matter of considerable public interest on which he had been in communication with him. It was, Whether he had reason to believe that the Bill introduced by the Government in "another place" for establishing a Code of Indictable Offences would come before their Lordships in the present Session; and, if not, what course the Government intended to pursue in regard to it?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the question to which his noble and learned Friend had referred was, no doubt, an extremely important one. Her Majesty's Government had, as perhaps their Lordships were aware, introduced into the other House of Parliament a Bill of unusual magnitude dealing with the whole subject of indictable offences. The measure would repeal the whole of the present Statute Law in that matter, and substitute a Code. It also expressed and set out the whole of the Common Law on the same subject, and added a complete and new mode of procedure in regard to indictable offences; so that, if the measure should pass into law, it would constitute in itself one complete Code in that, the principal portion of the Criminal Law of this country. The only part of the Criminal Law not covered by it would be that relating to summary jurisdiction. The Bill was of great magnitude, and consisted of 425 sections. Of course, it had been the subject of very anxious consideration by Her Majesty's Government as to how a measure of this kind could be best proceeded with, and passed into law either in this or some subsequent Session. From the description he had given of the measure, their Lordships would probably be of opinion that it would be scarcely possible to suppose that, either in this or the other House, it could obtain adequate consideration

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and criticism in detail. Of course, at some periods of the Session, it might be possible to refer the Bill to a Select Committee; but, on the other hand, it was scarcely to be expected that any Members of either House of Parliament could give the time and attention which would be necessary in order effectually to examine and criticise a measure of such importance and magnitude in Committee. So, again, in regard to the proposal which had been made that the measure should be referred to a Royal Commission, if it were submitted to a Royal Commission of the ordinary kind consisting of persons probably occupied with other important labours and meeting at intervals, it was scarcely to be supposed that such a body could bestow the necessary amount of time and consideration on the measure. In regard to the preparation of the Bill, he could only say that his learned Friend Sir Fitzjames Stephen, who had been the draftsman, had devoted himself to it with a degree of labour and learning of which it was impossible for him to speak too highly. The Law Officers of the Crown, so far as it had been in their power, had also examined the Bill at every stage during its preparation; but they all felt that it would be too much to ask Parliament to accept a measure, however carefully prepared, on the faith of those who had been engaged in it. Under these circumstances, Her Majesty's Government had determined to adopt a course which he hoped would be satisfactory to Parliament, and would lead to the early passing of this Bill into law. They had determined to appoint a Royal Commission, consisting of three persons, who, during the months of November, December, January, and February next, had undertaken to devote the whole of their time, so far as might be necessary, to the examination and revision of this great measure. Of course, it would not be further proceeded with in Parliament that Session. He would mention the names of the Royal Commissioners, which he had no doubt would give satisfaction to their Lordships. He was glad to say his noble and learned Friend (Lord Blackburn), considering the state of Appeal Business in their Lordships' House, remembering that that Business was not so heavy during the months named as during other periods of the year, and relying on
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his (the Lord Chancellor's) assurance that other learned Friends would relieve him of his duties in that House for the four months in question, had agreed to act as Chairman, of the Commission. Mr. Justice Lush, one of the most learned and experienced Judges on the Bench, had also agreed, in consideration of being relieved from his more urgent judicial duties during the same time, to devote his services to the Commission; the third Member of which would be Sir Fitzjames Stephen himself, the author and draftsman of the Bill. Those learned persons—and he must offer the tribute of his own gratitude to them for the spirited way in which they had undertaken the task—would, from November to February, devote themselves to an earnest examination of the measure; and he trusted that when that had been done, they would not be disappointed in the expectation that Parliament, so far as regarded all matters of expression and mere detail, would put a very considerable amount of reliance on the work which they had accomplished.

TURKEY—REPORTED DEFENSIVE TREATY WITH TURKEY.—QUESTION.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had a Question to put to the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council, as to a statement which had been made by The Daily Telegraph, apparently with some authority, to the effect that Her Majesty's Government had concluded a Defensive Treaty with the Sultan of Turkey, by which Great Britain guaranteed the maintenance of the Asiatic Dominions of the Sultan, and acquired the right to occupy and administer the Island of Cyprus, together with large facilities and privileges which would enable her to act as the protectress and civilizing guardian of that country. He wished to know if the noble Duke could confirm or deny the statement?
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had better read a statement in reply to the Question put to him by his noble Friend. He had to say that, in view of the retention by Russia of a portion of the Asiatic territory of the Porte, a conditional Convention was entered into on the 4th June last between Her Majesty and the Sultan, to the effect that—

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"If Batoum, Ardahan, Kars, or any of them, shall be retained by Russia, and if any attempt shall be made at any future time by Russia to take possession of any further portion of the Asiatic territories of the Sultan, as fixed by the definitive Treaty of Peace, England engages to join the Sultan in defending them by force of arms. In return, the Sultan promises to England to introduce necessary reforms (to be agreed upon later between the two Powers) into the government and for the protection of the Christian and other subjects of the Porte in those territories; and in order to enable England to make necessary provision for executing her engagement, the Sultan further consents to assign the Island of Cyprus to be occupied and administered by England. If at any time Russia shall surrender to the Porte the territory it has acquired from Turkey in the recent war, these stipulations shall cease to operate, and the Island will be evacuated."
Under that Convention—the conditions upon which it was made having now arisen—a Firman had been issued by the Porte, authorizing the transfer of the Island to England. Possession would be at once taken, and the Island administered on the part of Her Majesty; and he had to add that Her Majesty had been graciously pleased to appoint Sir Garnet Wolseley to administer the government of the Island. He would lay the Papers on the Table that night.

METROPOLIS—HYDE PARK— SHELTERS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF RUTLANDasked Her Majesty's Government, Why the gravel which had usually been laid down between the Marble Arch and Hyde Park Corner, and between the end of Rotten Row and Queen's Gate, had not been laid down this year; and whether there was any objection to building shelters in case of rain in Rotten Row and Battersea Park? In regard to the question of gravelling, he knew that one reason assigned for discontinuing the practice was that pedestrians objected to it; but he would appeal to the experience of their Lordships, as to whether newly-watered macadam did not splash a good deal more than gravel?—as his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council would find if he would stand whilst somebody cantered by. If gravel did splash, then he would suggest that that objection might be obviated by the use of a little tar, or tan and sand. In regard to the question of shelters, he really believed the erection of such places would be a very great accommodation
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  to those who frequented the Park. The cabmen had their shelters, and deservedly so; but he wanted to know why ladies and gentlemen should not also have the benefit of similar conveniences? He could only conceive two objections. One would be on the score of expense; but the question of usefulness would so far over-balance that, that he need not further refer to it. The second objection was, that shelters would be unsightly. He had been told that a large building in the middle of the park would not only be very hideous in itself, but would be also very much in the way. He, however, did not wish for such a building. What he asked was, that there should be some light, ornamental buildings on the side of the Park, which might be convenient for pedestrians as well as equestrians. Instead of one shelter, they might have half-a-dozen, and he believed it could be managed without difficulty. Of course, it was very easy to build ugly places. That was demonstrated every day, and the new barracks formed a case in point; but it was also possible to erect ornamental buildings, and nothing could be more simple than the plan he had suggested.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, the noble Duke had given satisfactory answers to his own Questions, and had shown why the proposals he made could not be carried out. The noble Duke had been quite correct in his surmise as to the reason why there was no gravel on the side of the Park between the Marble Arch and Hyde Park Corner. The First Commissioner of Works received so many complaints as to the great inconvenience to pedestrians which arose from gravel being placed in that part of the Park, that last year and this year the practice had been discontinued. His noble Friend considered that pedestrians would be more splashed by newly-watered macadam than by gravel; but he should have thought his great hunting experience would have taught him that people were less likely to canter on hard macadam than on soft gravel. The noble Duke also forgot that there were some parts of the Park made soft for the use of equestrians who, if they wished to canter, could do so round the North side of the Park, or if they preferred Rotten Row they could select that portion in front of the barracks. In regard to the second part of

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  the noble Duke's Question, he had also answered himself correctly. Shelters could not be put up without incurring considerable expense, and as they would have to be large enough to accommodate hundreds of horses, they must necessarily be unsightly. As to the proposal that the shelters should also be occupied by pedestrians, if the noble Duke were a pedestrian he would find himself in a rather uncomfortable position when boxed up with a lot of restive horses.
  THE DUKE OF RUTLANDexplained that his proposal was to have separate shelters for equestrians and pedestrians. In the latter case, the structure would be raised slightly from the ground.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONreplied, that that would increase the amount of accommodation to be provided, and would, therefore, strengthen his objection. The noble Duke had spoken of the new barracks as unsightly; but he could have no idea of what they would be when the scaffolding was removed and they were in a finished state.
  LORD TRUROhoped the subject would be further considered. In Paris, in the Bois de Boulogne shelters were provided.
  EARL GRANVILLEdid not think the Question had been sufficiently answered. He should like to see our Parks made more attractive than they were now, and he hoped the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) would consult the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works who had charge of the matter, and see whether something could not be done to meet the very reasonable wish expressed by the noble Duke who put the Question.
  EARL FORTESCUEdid not think the gravel was open to the objections urged against it. The walk was very wide, with plenty of room for pedestrians to get out of the way of the splash, if there really was any; but his experience was that they crowded up along the rails against the road to see and be seen.

  DUBLIN UNIVERSITY COMMISSION— THE REPORT.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREasked the Lord President of the Council, When it is probable that the Report of the Dublin University Commissioners, which was presented to the House on the 13th May last, will be distributed to Members
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  of the House? Eight weeks had elapsed since the Report had been laid on the Table. It dealt mainly with two subjects, one relating to the Divinity School, the other to the question of promotion amongst the Fellows. The Home Secretary had given permission for the Report to be communicated, as soon as it was laid before Parliament, to the bodies especially interested—namely, the Board of Trinity College and the Divinity School of the Church of Ireland. The part particularly relating to the latter had been communicated in regular course to the Press; but as regarded the other part, an inaccurate version had gone abroad. He did not expect, at this late period of the Session, that any discussion would take place; but the matter was of considerable importance, and he thought the Report should be, as soon as possible, in the hands of the public.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had made inquiries in Ireland in order that he might answer the Question, and the information he had received was that 1,000 Copies of the Dublin University Commissioners Report had been despatched from Dublin last night, and that the rest would follow to-night. He hoped that in the course of two or three days, at the most, it would be in the hands of their Lordships.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACT (IRELAND), 1877, AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACT (IRELAND), 1877, AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 139.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it was simply meant to remedy a slight defect in the Act, so as to enable certain Judges to go on Circuit, who, under the Act, could not have done so.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

  FOREIGN JURISDICTION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for extending and amending the Foreign Jurisdiction Acts—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 147.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock,