Lords Sitting of 5 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Epping Forest* (144).
Second Reading—Public Health (Ireland) (133).
Committee—Telegraphs* (142); Metropolis Management and Building Acts Amendment* (72–145); Local Government Provisional Orders (Abergavenny Union, &c.)* (116); General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act, 1862, Amendment* (124).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (Dawlish, &c.)* (121).
Third Reading—Intermediate Education (Ireland)* (132); Dental Practitioners* (140); Conway Bridge (Composition of Debt)* (111), and passed.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRE LAND) BILL.—PETITION.
EARL GRANVILLEpresented a Petition from the Ladies' General Educational Institute, praying that female students might be permitted to share the benefits of the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Bill introduced by the Government. It was well known that a strong feeling existed in England on the question of female education, and he believed that a similar feeling prevailed in Ireland. He need scarcely say that he agreed with the principle advocated by the Petitioners; and he should have moved an Amendment in support of that principle; but, as the Lord Chancellor had stated that there was nothing in the Bill to prevent the Board under it admitting women to the advantages provided, he would rather allow the Bill to remain as it stood than now move its re-committal, and thus run the risk of delay.
CRIME IN IRELAND.

  RETURNS. QUESTION.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEasked, When the Returns relating to Irish crime would be circulated? and said, he was sorry to again trouble their Lordships on the question; but he did not think that the fault of his being obliged to do so lay with him. He had examined the Returns for 1875–6, and found that nearly all the information he had asked for was contained in less than two sheets of paper. The further information which he sought to procure must exist in the Office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and he could not help thinking that the Returns might be easily made in the form he desired within 10 days. The delay could only arise from wilful neglect. His object in asking for these Returns was to show their Lordships and the public in general that the statements which he made on the occasion of the debate on the

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  dreadful murder of the late Lord Leitrim were not exaggerated, but were deserving the serious attention of the Government. He would like the noble Lord, who would reply on the part of the Government, to state what amount of crime had been committed in Ireland since the death of Lord Leitrim; for it was said during the debate he had referred to, that if the condition of things did not improve, the Government might have to apply to Parliament for extra powers to enforce the law. As a matter of fact, no improvement had taken place. He did not wish to trouble their Lordships with statistics, in addition to those which he presented a fortnight ago; but he might state that since then the steward of a gentleman in the neighbourhood in which he resided had been shot at, the bullet going into the mattress on which he and his wife were sleeping. Fortunately, they had bought a new and higher bed, or it would have gone through their bodies. He had also heard, within the last few days, that Westmeath and Meath were again becoming dangerous. A friend of his informed him that he had received several threatening letters—a thing which had never happened to him before. Other cases of violence and opposition to the law had arisen, and the terror which prevailed was so great that it would be impossible for him to enter into details; because, if he were to give the name of individuals, serious consequences might ensue. He should be glad if the Government could hold out any hope that, while they were so perpetually engaged in trying to bring about good government in Eastern Europe, they would endeavour to afford some security for life in a country nearer home.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONassured the noble Lord that no unnecessary delay had taken place in acquiring the information asked for and presenting it to Parliament. On the contrary, arrangements had been made with the printers that the proofs should be sent in instalments, in order that no time might be lost. Several instalments of the Report had been forwarded to the printers, so that he could say the Report was in course of preparation, and he hoped to be able to lay it on the Table of the House in a short time.

MALTA—PROTEST OF THE MALTESE NOBLES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether there would be any objection to lay on the Table of the House the Protest of the Committee of Maltese Nobles, which was forwarded to the Government on the appointment of a Commission to examine the claims of the Nobility of Malta, as well as the Correspondence that passed between the Commissioners and the Permanent Committee of the Nobles? The noble Viscount said, that having brought the subject before the House on a former occasion, he had now very little to add. It would be remembered, that two or three years ago, a strong feeling existed amongst the Maltese Nobility with regard to their position in society, particularly on public occasions, and the matter culminated on the visit of the Prince of Wales to the island. The subject was referred to the Government, and the then Secretary of State for the Colonies wrote to the Governor to appoint a Commission to inquire into the grievance complained of by the Nobles. He had not one word to say against the step taken by the noble Earl, except as to the constitution of the Commission. As to the character and talent of the gentlemen selected he would not say anything; but he thought that in a small island like Malta, where those matters were so much talked about in society, some exception might be taken to two of the members of the Commission, especially as considerable feeling had been evinced as to the relative position of the Nobles and the Judges. A protest was made against two of the Commissioners, and the question which he asked the Government was, whether there would be any objection to produce the Protest? While the Commission was sitting, some Correspondence passed between the Permanent Committee of the Nobles and the Commissioners; and he would like to be informed by the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether that Correspondence could also be presented to the House?
  EARL CADOGAN,in reply to the first part of the noble Viscount's Question, begged to state that no protest of any

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  kind had been received by the Government with reference to the matter, and certainly not with respect to the composition of the Commission. As the noble Viscount was aware, the Report of the Commission had already been laid on the Table of the House, He might say that a Petition was addressed to the Queen, regarding the place of honour due to the Nobility of Malta. It was forwarded to England by the then Governor of Malta, and was included in the Papers which were presented to the House of Commons some time ago. That was the only document in the nature of a Protest in the possession of the Government; but if the noble Viscount wished to have it, and would move for it, he would lay it on the Table of their Lordships' House.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, the Protest was addressed to the Governor of Malta.
  EARL CADOGANremarked, that it was not remitted to the Home Government.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONwould take the opportunity of answering one of the remarks which had been made by the noble Viscount (Viscount Sidmouth). The noble Viscount had commented on the composition of the Commission. The Commission was not appointed by himself as the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, but by the Governor of Malta. He had no hesitation, however, in saying that he believed the Commission was a fit and proper tribunal to inquire into the case. Two of the gentlemen selected were Judges who had spent the best part of their lives in the island. They were men of high character and great experience, and it would have been difficult to have found men better qualified for the task. He was not sorry to be able to bear his testimony to the patience with which the Commissioners conducted the Inquiry, and the ability which characterized their Report.

  PUBLIC HEALTH (IRELAND) BILL.
  (The Lord President.)
  (NO. 133.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE DUKE OP RICHMOND AND GORDON, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it was
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  unnecessary that he should enlarge on the advantages of the consolidation which it sought to bring about in the Acts affecting the public health of Ireland. The Bill contained 294 clauses, dealing with as many as 20 Acts of Parliament, all of which would be found referred to in the Schedule. It was strictly analogous to the English Public Health Act. The Acts of 1848 and 1856, and the various Statutes on the subject of the prevention of disease, of nuisance removal, and of sewage removals, and the powers which were conferred on various local authorities were in 1866 applied to Ireland. In 1872, there were great reforms in these Acts as they applied to England, and the country was divided into urban and rural sanitary districts, and all the old powers which were conferred by various Statutes were transferred to these new bodies. It was obviously only to simplify the law to consolidate the numerous Statutes to which he had alluded. The present Bill merely gave to Ireland the advantages which had already been given to England, and he confidently hoped their Lordships would think it a wise and proper measure.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2.a"—(The Lord President.)
  VISCOUNT POWERSCOURTsaid, he had had a good deal of conversation with members of the Medical Council in Ireland, and he was happy to say that that body was most anxious that the Bill should pass. He had given Notice to move the insertion of a clause in Committee, which he would shortly bring up.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.