Lords Sitting of 2 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Conway Bridge (Composition of Debt)* (111).
Committee—Report—Intermediate Education (Ireland) (132).
Report—Bills of Sale* (80–143).
Third Reading—Public Works Loans (Ireland) Act (1877) Amendment* (137), and passed.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 132.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)

COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 5 (Functions of Board).
EARL SPENCERsaid, he would like to ask a Question of the noble and learned Lord who had charge of the Bill—namely, Whether it was intended that the prizes and studentships should be open to competition by women?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the Bill, as at present framed, did not contemplate the application of the scheme to female students. Should Parliament at any time be disposed to extend the system to them, a modification of the rules as to the subjects of examination would be necessary, and provision would have to be made for separate examinations. The financial arrangements would also require enlargement.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 6 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedule of Rules.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he had given Notice of an Amendment with the object of including the teachers of National Schools in Ireland amongst those who would be entitled to the results fees; but, after the very courteous and complete manner in which the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack replied to all the Questions put to him on the second reading of the Bill, he should be very reluctant to press it. He did think, however, that this was a matter of considerable importance, and he should like to state a few reasons why he hoped the noble and learned Lord would re-consider his decision on the subject. By including those teachers, the benefits of the Bill would be very largely extended. The children preparing for the examination would be able, at much less expense, to attend schools near their own houses, whereas the intermediate schools, which, as the Bill stood, would alone be entitled to the fees, would, in all probability, be schools situated in the large towns. The National schools, coming as they did under the National Board, would be certain to comply with the Conscience Clause. There was no doubt, therefore, that the benefit of the Bill would be far more widely extended, if the National schoolmasters were included in this part of the Schedule. Many of the National schoolmasters had already sent up pupils, who had competed successfully in the examinations for the Civil Service. That showed that many of the masters were even now qualified to take advantage of the Bill; and, if his proposal were adopted, many more would qualify themselves. The effect of his Amendment would be to establish a much higher and more contented class of National teachers, their remuneration, and their position being both improved. In Scotland, as the noble and learned Lord was probably aware, schoolmasters of the same class always instructed promising pupils for the higher branches, and he had never heard any complaint that, in so doing, they neglected their duties in regard to the other pupils. The National school teachers had already done very good service, and if they were excluded from the benefits to be derived from results fees, risk would be run of making them a discontented body. Another consideration, which was perhaps
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not unworthy of attention, was that they had many friends in the other House of Parliament, and it was highly probable that if the boon were not granted, the advocacy of their interests might very considerably delay the progress of the Bill. He ventured to submit to the House, and to the noble and learned Lord, these few reasons why he thought National school teachers should be permitted to earn the results fees which the Bill proposed should be paid to the managers of other schools.
LORD CARLINGFORDwould like to ask the noble and learned Lord if it was not the case that, under the rules with respect to the prizes and exhibitions, any person in Ireland might compete, wherever they might have been educated, whether by private tuition, or in a National, model, or any other school?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there were two parts of the Bill which were quite distinct from each other—one had reference to exhibitions, the other to examinations. In regard to exhibitions, the noble Lord (Lord Carlingford) had pointed out that pupils might be educated in private and other schools on terms mentioned in the Bill. He must say that he looked upon that part of the Bill as a link between the system of intermediate education and the primary and National schools. He hoped there might be found a largo number of the more intelligent of the boys in the primary and National schools availing themselves of the advantages of this measure; but it was quite a different matter when it came to payment by results. He maintained that they could not do a worse thing for primary education than to hold out inducements to the masters of the primary schools to neglect the ordinary rank and file of those schools, in order to give a better education to some boys who might be capable of earning the "result fees."
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he did not intend to move his Amendment.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Friday next.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.