Lords Sitting of 1 July 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading— Parliamentary and Municipal Registration (Consolidated) (125); Conway Bridge (Composition of Debt) (111).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Public Works Loans (Ireland) Act (1877) Amendment * (137).
Select Committee—Report—Telegraphs [No. 141]. Committee—Report—Prison Authorities Act, 1874, Amendment * (134).
Report—Telegraphs * (77–142).
Third Reading—Inclosure Provisional Order (Orford) * (127); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 1) * (109); Highways (South Wales) * (98), and passed.,

THE FOREIGN OFFICE—ABSTRACTION OF A DOCUMENT—THE MEMORANDUM OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN ENGLAND AND RUSSIA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council can answer a Question which I desire to put to him, and of which I have given him private Notice. It refers to a matter which has already formed the subject of a Question in the House. I allude to the publication by The Globe newspaper of a Memorandum purporting to be a Memorandum of Agreement between England and Russia, and in respect of which a person now stands charged before the magistrate at Bow Street. Of course, I shall say nothing that could reflect in the slightest degree upon the Government, or on the person who is accused of having made the communication to The Globe; but it is perfectly clear, from the proceedings before the magistrate at Bow Street, that the Memorandum had been put into the hands of a writer who did not belong to the regular Establishment of the Foreign Office, and I think there is internal evidence that there is no rule at the Foreign Office which prevents confidential communications from being so dealt with that it is Possible for them to obtain publicity. In the course of 20 years I have been three times at the Foreign Office, and during my experience there, the system pursued was that of placing absolute confidence in the gentlemen belonging to the Establishment. That absolute confidence was not confined to one department, but was extended to the whole of the gentlemen of the Establishment, and they manifested so high a sense of honour, that the strictest secrecy was inviolably observed, and I think that without a single exception the confidence reposed in them was justified. But I am not aware that at the periods of which I speak a confidential communication could have got into the hands of a person employed in the Office by the hour as a copying writer. Placing confidential documents into the hands of persons not belonging to the Establishment is certainly at variance with the system with which I am acquainted

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  Therefore, I hope the noble Duke will be able to make some satisfactory statement, from which the public at large may see that the confidential character of the relations between the Government and the clerks of the Foreign Office has not been destroyed, and that he will also give your Lordships an assurance that steps will be taken to prevent confidential documents from getting into the hands of persons not belonging to the Establishment, or in the position of the person who is now charged with the abstraction of the Memorandum in question, and of further publishing it?
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: My Lords, I regret that I cannot give my noble Friend the information for which he asks. The whole matter, as my noble Friend stated, is now before a police court, and the person charged with the offence is under a remand; consequently, the whole subject must be matter of judicial inquiry. It is therefore impossible for me to give an answer to my noble Friend, without going into such a statement of facts as would be very inconvenient considering the state in which the case before the court now is. That being so, I am sure my noble Friend will not press the Question; because it is obvious that in any statement respecting the affair I might make, I must go into details the mention of which would not now be advisable.
  LORD SELBORNE: Upon one point I should like to ask the noble Duke a Question. A gentleman belonging to the Foreign Office is reported to have stated at the police court that there is no rule of the Office against the employment there of persons known to be connected with the public Press. I hope, if the statement which has been made on that head is incorrect, the noble Duke will be able to tell us so?
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: As the noble and learned Lord (Lord Selborne) has given me no Notice of his Question, it is impossible for me to give him a very satisfactory answer. As I understand it, the statement referred to by the noble and learned Lord was made on oath before the magistrate.
  LORD SELBORNE: It was; by Mr. Marsh.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: I presume that if the gentleman referred to made the statement on oath, he conscientiously believed it to be true; but whether it is true or not, I personally cannot undertake to say.
  LORD HAMMOND: Your Lordships will, I am sure, considering the position which I so long held in the Foreign Office, extend to me your indulgence while saying—though I may not be strictly in Order—a few words on the painful transaction connected with the publication of the Schouvaloff-Salisbury Agreement of the 30th of May in The Globe newspaper of the 14th of June. I am sure, however, that it is satisfactory to your Lordships, as it certainly is to myself, that it has been ascertained that not a shadow of suspicion can any longer rest on the Russian Embassy of its having been directly or indirectly party to its publication. Attached as I justly am to an Office in which I have so long served, and deeply interested in the character and reputation of its members—to most of whom I am indebted for their most friendly and zealous assistance throughout many years during which we have worked together—I cannot but feel the utmost concern at an occurrence which, on the first blush, would seem to attach an evil imputation upon the Foreign Office; and it is but a poor consolation to find in it a justification of the opinion, which I have always entertained and enforced, that it would be a very hazardous experiment to introduce into an Office, where the work is essentially of a most confidential character, and where the principle of the most unreserved confidence in every person employed in the transaction of it, from the very first day on which a clerk enters on its duties, is, and must be necessarily, acted on, persons of whose antecedents and connections the Secretary of State has no other knowledge than is afforded by a certificate of proficiency and fitness granted to them by the Civil Service Commissioners after open and competitive examination. Of the soundness of this principle of unreserved confidence as applied to the Foreign Office I never, during nearly 50 years while I was employed in it, and specifically during nearly 20 years while I held the Office of Permanent Under Secretary of State, had reason to doubt. It secured friendly

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  and harmonious feeling among all who were employed in carrying on the public business of the Office, and it stimulated zeal and industry among them, without which the confidential and at times oppressively laborious duties imposed upon them could not have been efficiently and cheerfully discharged. I trust most earnestly in the interests of the Public Service, no less than for the comfort of the individual members of the Office, that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will maintain that principle. The practice which, in conformity with it, has been observed in carrying on the public business of the Office has been proved by the experience of many years to be singularly well calculated to insure its efficient, regular, and speedy transaction. I found it in existence when I entered on the Office in 1824; I have studied during my own service to maintain it unimpaired. I can appeal to many Members of this House to bear mo out in what I say on this subject, and I know that in foreign countries the English Foreign Office is held in honourable estimation. While I hope that I shall have carried your Lordships along with me in what I have now said in behalf of the Foreign Office, I would further remark that its members are deeply grieved at what has occurred, and if any word could go forth to satisfy them and the country that there is no imputation on the Office generally, it will be highly gratifying to them. I can speak from long experience of the zeal and devotion to the Public Service and the deep sense of personal responsibility which is entertained by every member of the Office. I think it is due to them that one who has served with them so long should rise in his place in this House and defend them. It is not impossible, I would trust, that some useful lessons may be drawn from what has occurred which may be of general benefit hereafter. The first is, that greater attention should be paid than has been proved to have been paid in the present instance, in the assignment of copying clerks to such Departments as have assented to their introduction; and, secondly, that greater liberality should be shown in remunerating copying clerks than the miserable pittance of 10 d. an hour, which would seem to be the estimate entertained of the value to be attached to their services.

  PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL REGISTRATION (CONSOLIDATED) BILL—(No. 125.)
  (The Earl Stanhope.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL STANHOPE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the chief object of the measure was to provide one simple system for the revision of electoral lists for Parliamentary and municipal purposes. In 1876 there were before the other House of Parliament three Bills relating to those subjects; but in 1877 those three Bills were sent to a Select Committee of that House. The Select Committee was composed of 21 Members, of whom two were Metropolitan Members, three Members for great cities, 11 Members for provincial great towns, one county Member, and four Irish Members. He might at once mention that the Bill before their Lordships did not affect Ireland. The Bill contained 43 clauses, and when it came into operation, the revision for both the Parliamentary and the municipal franchises would be carried out by the Revising Barrister. At present the municipal list was annually revised by the Mayor of the city or borough, assisted by two assessors; while the Parliamentary list had to be revised by a member of the Bar appointed to that office. The Bill proposed to do away with the present mode of registering the municipal voters, and provided that the Revising Barrister should revise each at a Court held within the city or borough in the month of October in each year. It had undergone careful consideration in the House of Commons, and came up to their Lordships with the approval of that House. Petitions in its favour had been presented by the Association of Municipal Corporations; and in communications received from Town Clerks, it was estimated that the saving resulting from the operation of the Bill would be very large. It was estimated that in Liverpool the saving would be at least £300, in Manchester £600, and in Birmingham £800. In Liverpool at present the making of the burgees roll cost £353 14 s. 9d.; the printing of the same, £464 14 s. 6d.; and the printing of the Parliamentary register, £273 6s. 3d.;

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  making a total of £1,091 15 s. 6d. The noble Earl concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl Stanhope.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the Bill was one of considerable importance, and one which, he hoped, if it became law, would prove extremely useful in its operations. It therefore deserved the favourable consideration of their Lordships, and he hoped it would be read a second time without opposition, as it came before them after having been subjected to the examination of two Select Committees of the other House of Parliament in two successive Sessions, on the last occasion the Committee being assisted by a Law Officer of the Crown. Those Committees had made several very important suggestions, which had been embodied in the Bill by the Law Officer of the Crown. There might be some difference of opinion in their Lordships' House upon some matters of detail; but if it were read a second time they would have ample opportunity in Committee of making any Amendments of detail which might be thought desirable.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that no doubt it was desirable the Bill should pass; but he would remind their Lordships, if he remembered rightly, that when a similar Bill was before their Lordships five years ago, the noble and learned Lord did not express so favourable an opinion upon it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the noble Earl will take the trouble to compare the two Bills—the Bill of five years ago with the present Bill—he willscarcely say that they are similar.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  CONWAY BRIDGE (COMPOSITION OF DEBT) BILL—(No. 111.)
  (The Lord President.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that in the reign of George IV., the Commissioners
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  of the Treasury were authorized by Act of Parliament to advance out of the Consolidated Fund a sum of £40,000 to construct a bridge over the Conway. The bridge was to be constructed as a part of what at that time was the mail route to Ireland, and the Postmaster General was authorized to charge extra rates of postage for letters going across the bridge. The Conway bridge was vested in the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works, who managed and repaired it, and received the revenue arising from, the tolls, which, after deducting the expense of collection, they paid into the Exchequer. The expenses of the management, repair, and maintenance of the bridge were paid out of moneis provided by Parliament. There was now a Bill before Parliament for the transfer of the Conway Bridge to Commissioners to be constituted under that Bill, and they would relieve the Commissioners of Works from all liability in respect of the structure. The tolls had much fallen away since the construction of the line of railway to Holyhead, which had diverted the traffic; and, of course, when the Penny Postage Act was passed, the extra amount received for letters foil off also, and hence the local authorities had been for some time unable to meet their engagements. In order to remedy the deficiency, the Bill, the second reading of which he was moving, was one to enable the Treasury to compound the debt of £40,000 and the arrears of interest thereon for an immediate payment of £10,000. It was believed that this composition would be for the interest of the public. The noble Duke concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  VISCOUNT PORTMANsaid, he desired to call attention to the Bill, because it commuted a charge of £40,000 on loan from the funds of the public taxpayers for a payment of £10,000, at 5s. in the pound. He wished to warn the House against the excessive increase of debts incurred by occupiers of premises on mortgage of the owner's property, which the owners had no power to control, while the occupiers wore mere pilgrims, who might leave the empty

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  premises to pay the debt. The protection for the owners was supposed to be vested in the Local Government Board; but, in fact, they were the great promoters of every kind of expense, with no regard to the cost of works, generally conducted by schemers who cared nothing for the loss to the parties interested. The result must be similar to the case in this Bill—an appeal to the Government to abate the debt. The Return of local loans sanctioned by the Local Government Board under the Public Health Act alone showed on the five years ending 1876, a debt of nearly £1,200,000, where of nearly £530,000 was advanced by the Public Works Loan Commissioners, and, looking at the places so assisted, he was very much afraid that that debt would grow, and that the Conway Bridge Bill would prove only the precursor of numerous other measures of a similar character. He would not go into the figures which showed the enormous amount of borrowed money in other years, nor into a list of Acts passing almost unheeded every day for sanctioning works to be carried on with borrowed capital, but he would give their Lordships a case to show why he was distrustful of the appointed custodes. A Local Board Inspector was sent at the public cost to inquire into a very frivolous quarrel between an individual and the sanitary board of a district. The Inspector suggested various expenses under some assumed dictatorial power, and advised a borrowing of £2,000 or £3,000, to be charged on a 30 years' loan, which was repudiated by the district as pure waste. He had, however, a much more alarming topic to mention, which he trusted the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council would do his best to avert. In the Bill called the County Government Bill was a clause to enable the Board to mortgage the county property in aid of the debts of the urban sanitary boards and such like authorities; so that, however wasteful they might be, the real property of the county was to be charged with a sort of rate to pay the loan over which they had no possible control. He thought that the Government should take some strong measures to check the system of borrowing by local bodies, and the facilities which the Local Government afforded for such borrowing, and he had,
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  therefore, thus called attention to the subject; for, although contributions were given from the taxes in aid of the rates in certain cases, the new charges encouraged by the Local Government Board far exceeded the relief.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, there was a good deal of truth in what the noble Viscount had urged; but it must be remembered that Parliament had imposed upon local authorities the duty of carrying out sanitary and other improvements costing a great deal of money, and it was therefore desirable that they should be assisted in procuring the money at a low rate of interest. If care were taken that a proper sinking fund was provided, the country would not lose, and the locality would undoubtedly gain a great deal by these loans. The great difficulty appeared to be to insure that the locality was capable of bearing the expense put upon it, and this was a question which should be the subject of careful investigation before loans were granted.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.