§ LORD TRUROrose, pursuant to Notice, to make some observations in regard to the Metropolitan Police Force. He begged to remind the House that when, upon a former occasion, he was about to do so, he was met by an objection from the noble Duke opposite that he was committing a breach of the Rules of the House by introducing the subject without having given Notice. Knowing the great latitude that was permitted in their Lordships' House, he did not think he was much in the wrong, because, in his view, irregularity was rather the rule of the House than otherwise; but finding that he was he had now given Notice, in order to set himself right with the House. In bringing forward this question, he should commence with the same words that he used on the former occasion—namely, that Her Majesty's Government being a Conservative Government, and following the traditions of all Conservative Governments, had exercised its natural instincts 1752 by never moving in the direction of the reform of any institution until it was thoroughly convinced that it absolutely required it. The reason that he made that very common-place observation was that when a Conservative Government did move he thought they might be well assured that there were very good grounds for that movement, and that with respect to the Metropolitan Police they might be well assured that any steps that might be taken towards its reform would not be taken without a thorough and searching inquiry. This matter of the Metropolitan Police had been before their Lordships once or twice during the last Session, and he did not propose to trouble them at any length; but he must apologize for the somewhat desultory nature of the remarks which he should venture to offer. Inasmuch as Her Majesty's Government had considered it proper to appoint a Committee to inquire into the reorganization of the Metropolitan Police Force, he thought it would be expedient to draw their attention to one or two general remarks previous to that Committee commencing its labours. Now, if there was one thing more important than another in relation to that Department it was that the heads of the Office should be men of vigour and energy, of experience, and of sound discretion; but, above all, what was absolutely essential for the management and control of such a Department was vigour and energy. It was a somewhat remarkable circumstance that in the Metropolitan Police Department there was no arrangement for compulsory retirement similar to that which was provided, always to the great advantage of the public, in other public Departments. In this there was no provision for men to retire at all, and, he believed, no pension. He could not help thinking that in these days, when in the whole of our great Public Departments they looked to the age of 60 years as being that at which, in the interest of the public service, men should retire from active service, it did seem extraordinary that the Metropolitan Police Department should be without that most reasonable provision. Taking all the Departments of the State there was, perhaps, not one which so much necessitated the possession in their full activity of the mental and bodily powers. Yet he believed that two out of the three 1753 gentlemen at the head of that Department were now verging on the age of 70. What the age of the other distinguished officer might be he did not undertake to say; but it must be obvious to their Lordships that the age of 70 was one but little suited to the requirements of such an office as the control of the Metropolitan Police Department. He would remind their Lordships that that Department had much more to do than the mere control of the police of the Metropolis, it being in constant connection, or if not constant, to a very great extent in connection with, similar Departments all over the country; and when their Lordships remembered that it involved constant correspondence with the police authorities of such cities as Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool, and the like, they must confess the amount of labour that was thrown upon the Department must be immense. He, therefore, threw out for the consideration of the Committee on the re-organization of the Department, whether it was not desirable to take this matter into consideration; and, first of all, whether the gentlemen who were at the head of the Department were still endowed with the energy that was necessary to enable them to discharge the duties of the office, and, if not, whether it was not desirable in the interests of the public, as well as in the interests of the present heads themselves, who had served the public honestly and faithfully for many years, and were therefore entitled to, and no doubt would receive, the most liberal consideration on the part of the Government, should not retire, and make room for men who, being younger, must necessarily possess more bodily vigour? He now wished to make one observation in reference to the Departments themselves. They very often heard men talk about "time-honoured Departments;" but if there were time-honoured Departments, he must remind their Lordships that very frequently they were time-worn Departments, and time-worn Departments were often very proper objects of attack on the part of those who wished to see reforms carried into effect. Departing from that portion of the subject, he would call the attention of their Lordships to the fact that within the last few weeks there had been rumours of the existence of great discontent among the members of the Police Force themselves. 1754 The Committee which had been appointed would, no doubt, use their discretion in judging of the reasonableness of those complaints. They were three in number, two of which had been brought prominently before the public; but the third, which had not been mentioned, was, perhaps, the greatest grievance of the three. The one that was most prominent was the question of increased pay. Now, that was not so easy to deal with as they might imagine, for this reason. The ground on which the demand for increased pay was put forward was, that lodgings were so expensive. Now, as their Lordships knew, the area over which the police operated was very extensive, and it would be absurd to suppose that it was so expensive to live in the suburban districts as in those which he called the inner circle. Apart from that, he knew, as a fact, that in the inner districts of the Metropolis care was taken to have the most experienced, the most able, and the most energetic men; and, that being so, he considered the demands made by policemen in that district were entitled to greater weight than those which were made by the suburban police. But, on behalf of the public, it seemed to him that great discrimination should be used in dealing with this matter. They all knew that in public companies and large institutions, where there were a considerable number of men justly entitled by their superior ability and the circumstances in which they were placed to ask for a larger salary, yet it was the constant practice of the most incompetent to make a demand for higher payment. In some cases such a demand was complied with; but when the head of the firm or the manager of the company was a man of firmness as well as discretion, the first application was invariably refused, and it was only after repeated applications that the demand, in other cases, was granted when it was considered that the persons who made it were worthy of it. He could not help thinking that the public would be very unwise if they were led away by the notion that the men were underpaid, except in particular districts, and especially in what he had termed the inner circle of London. He reminded their Lordships that the expenses necessarily incurred by the Police Force were infinitely less in the suburbs than they were in the central parts of 1755 the Metropolis; while, at the same time, the men employed were, as a rule, of a superior character, and possessed of more ability. On that ground he did not object to their application for an increase of pay being carefully considered. Leaving for a moment the question of increased pay to the Police Force, he would just touch upon another point —namely, that which he might term the lodging question. As their Lordships were aware, there was recently an Act of Parliament passed, entitled the "Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Act," the object of which was that when large areas were cleared for Metropolitan improvements, provision should be made by the surveyors and architects who laid out the improvement schemes, to build houses sufficient for the accommodation of the population which had been displaced. He was aware that this Act had no direct bearing upon the question of the accommodation of the police; but he would suggest to their Lordships what had been suggested to him by men of great experience — namely, whether it would not be expedient to make use of the powers of this Act of Parliament to provide lodgings for the police in the shape of police barracks in those large areas in which it was proposed to build houses for the accommodation of the people who were displaced? He put it to them, whether it did not appear to be a most impolitic thing to mass together from 3,000 to 5,000, perhaps, of the class of persons who would be removed from their dwellings under this Act in one spot, without having some place provided for the police? Surely, it was not for the safety of the community at large that such bodies of people of this class should be massed together without any police control, merely because the existing sites upon which they lived had become more valuable and obtained higher rents than formerly? In his opinion, wherever the Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Act was brought into operation, police barracks for the accommodation of a certain number of both the single and married policemen should be erected. Even if this were not done, care might be taken to provide lodgings for the police in these districts at a small rent, and in some degree proportionate to their pay. There was another question which he thought was well deserving of the con- 1756 sideration of the Committee which had been appointed, and that was a readjustment of the night labour. At present, a policeman went on duty at 9 o'clock every night for a week together for 9 hours; and he could not help thinking that such continuous night work was injurious to the men, although he had heard it alleged that going on duty for three days and three nights alternately would affect the health of the policeman still more detrimentally than their going on night duty for a whole week. At all events, the Committee might inquire whether this was one of the causes of their discontent. The substantial grievance he looked upon with most concern was the fact that there was neither any pension or fixed period of retirement for the men; the result of which was, that they might serve the country most efficiently and faithfully for 25, 30 or even 40 years, and then, when they became old and unfit for further service, they might be turned adrift without any retiring pension whatever. His own view was in accordance with the practice which prevailed in the public Departments generally, that an officer should retire with a pension at 60. Leaving that portion of the subject, he would refer to another, which would, perhaps, interest the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and that was the necessity for altering the law with a view to give the police more protection than it at present gave them. It would, perhaps, rather surprise their Lordships when he told them that last year there were no less than 2,941 assaults on the Metropolitan Police Force; and he had it on good authority that in the previous year the assaults on the police numbered 2,894, some of them being of a very severe character. He, therefore, thought it but reasonable that some further protection should be afforded to them than they at present possessed. He need hardly mention any individual cases; but he thought that when medical students, coming out of a dancing saloon, considered it good fun to half knock the eye out of a policeman, it was time to give them some increased protection. There was very little punishment awarded to those who considered it good fun to strike a policeman, but who would regard it as the reverse of fun if a policeman struck them. He could not help thinking that stringent regulations were 1757 necessary to protect those whose duty it was to protect the public. He knew very well that many persons were apt to discredit the reports of the assaults made on the police, and it was on that account that he had stated the number of them; but, if the truth were known, that number was very much understated. He thought the best remedy for this evil was altogether to abolish fines, and substitute imprisonment for the offence of assaulting the police. With regard to the complaints of the police, he would like to say one or two words more with relation to the disadvantages under which they laboured in respect to the detection of crime. He did not think that their Lordships could be aware how extremely loose and defective the Metropolitan Police Act was with reference to pawnbrokers; and in looking into this subject he had obtained a copy of the Glasgow Police Act, and the perusal of that had convinced him that their Scotch neighbours had been more far-seeing than themselves, and they had taken care to introduce into their Police Act powers not only for the detection of crime and the arrest of suspected persons, but with reference to pawnbrokers, marine store dealers, and dealers in metals. In London, pawnbrokers were almost able to defy the law, and gave the police more trouble than any other class. He did not know whether their Lordships were aware of the fact, but there were a great many respectable pawnbrokers who were in the habit of keeping a melting-pot ready for the purpose of defacing and destroying plate, so as to prevent its identification, and not long ago he heard of an officer who wished to sell a gold epaulet, who was told by his tailor that if he would only wait two or three minutes he would go to a pawnbroker, get it melted, tell him the exact value, and give him the money. He thought it most discreditable that pawnbrokers should keep melting-pots ready to melt down stolen goods. He had even heard of a melting-pot being kept in a cab, and things being stolen at one end of the street being melted and defaced at the other in the cab. He was, therefore, of opinion that the whole of the law relating to the disposition of goods in the hands of pawnbrokers should be narrowly scrutinized. By the Glasgow Police Act power was given to enter dwellings on suspicion, but no 1758 such power existed in the Metropolitan Police Act. He thought it extremely desirable that there should be; and. he heartily commended the subject to the attention of the Committee, being quite convinced that it would be for the advantage of the community if the police had power to enter houses from which any disorderly noises issued, or where they suspected any person who had committed a penal offence was harboured, and he assured their Lordships that those provisions had been found to be extremely effective in Glasgow. There was also a clause in the Police Act of 1866 which affected the pawnbrokers to the same extent, but he would not trouble their Lordships by reading it. While he sincerely congratulated the Government on the step which they had taken in the appointment of the Committee, he hoped it was only the prelude to the issue of a Royal Commission to inquire into the whole question of the Metropolitan Police, and see by what means they could be placed upon a more satisfactory and permanent basis. If the Government did not move for the issue of this Commission, he should do so himself. He desired inquiry particularly as regarded the relations between the city and borough and the county police. The jealousy which now existed between those bodies rendered it most difficult to discharge the duties efficiently; and, unless the police power could be concentrated in such a way as to act upon the whole country, they would not have such a force as they were entitled to. The relations at present existing were such as to prevent the detection of crime.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in the first place, acknowledged the compliment which the noble Lord in the outset of his remarks was good enough to pay to Her Majesty's Government, when he said that being a Conservative Government they were not in the habit of meddling with matters merely for the sake of interference, but that when real grievances were proved to exist they were both willing and desirous to inquire into them, and if possible provide a remedy. He apologized to the noble Lord if he thought that on a former occasion he acted with any want of courtesy in requesting him to postpone the remarks he was then commencing to make as being of an irregular character. He made that request 1759 because he considered it desirable that their Lordships should have some notice that the noble Lord intended to make observations on a subject which was of the very greatest importance to every person in the country. Therefore, he had looked at to-day's Notice Paper, to see what line of argument the noble Lord was about to enter upon; but he found only the very modest statement that the noble Lord would make some "observations" about the Metropolitan Police Force. He confessed reading that Notice did not prepare him for the very vast and wide subject upon which the noble Lord had entered. He would not, however, quarrel with the noble Lord, for perhaps, to a certain extent, his observations came within the terms of the Notice he had placed upon the Paper. His reply to those observations might be postponed until next Session; because the noble Lord had told them that he intended to re-open the whole subject next year by moving for the appointment of a Royal Commission. Now, the remarks of the noble Lord might be divided into two heads. First of all those which affected the Police Force itself, and those which referred to its organization and the gentlemen who were connected with the head Department. With regard to what had been said respecting the dwellings of the constables, and the Artizans Dwellings Act, that was, no doubt, a subject which would be considered by the Committee which had recently been appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. They would be certain to enter upon an inquiry of that kind. And, again, as to the number of assaults committed upon members of the Police Force, no one could look upon them without expressing his horror at what the men were subject to, and it was worthy of consideration whether the law required to be further strengthened on that point. He guarded himself from saying that it would be possible to carry out anything of that kind; what he wished to say was, that it was a matter which could not altogether escape observation. Then, if the powers of search possessed by the police were not sufficient to enable them to properly discharge their arduous duties—duties which, in his opinion, they performed in a highly creditable manner—it might be desirable to increase those powers. The noble Lord 1760 had made some remarks about the pawnbrokers and marine store dealers, and he could not agree in his account of what he called a "respectable" pawnbroker, who had a smelting-pot always ready. He should have thought there were pawnbrokers in this city who would be above anything of that kind; and if they were guilty of such a thing they certainly would not come under the category of "respectable." And now as to the constitution of the head Department of the Police. The noble Lord found fault that the gentlemen who were connected with that Department—Sir Edmund Henderson, Captain Harris, and Colonel Labalmondiere — were men verging on 60 years of age.
§ LORD TRUROsaid, he never mentioned the name of Sir Edmund Henderson, and he stated that it had not been considered desirable to retain gentlemen in public Departments when they were near 70 years of age.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, if the noble Lord had not alluded to Sir Edmund Henderson, he must have referred to the two other gentlemen, and his argument respecting them was scarcely borne out by the facts in this and other cases. The eyes of the country had recently been directed to the Conference which had been going on in Germany, and he thought both Prince Gortchakoff and Prince Bismarck were nearer 70 than 60. The noble Lord would probably know the age of Mr. Gladstone, and he (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) was aware of the age of his noble Friend (the Earl of Beaconsfield), and none of those gentlemen, certainly not his noble Friend, showed any want of vigour or energy in the performance of the arduous duties imposed upon them; and if gentlemen of their age could carry out what they did, it was rather hard to say that the two gentlemen to whom he alluded in the head Department of the Police Force were not fit to carry out their work because of their age. He should not enter further into the subject. He had made these observations out of courtesy to the noble Lord; and he still adhered to the opinion that those who were at the head of the Metropolitan Police Force were perfectly competent and capable to carry out the duties imposed upon them with zeal and energy. No doubt the other points to 1761 which the noble Lord had alluded—such as superannuation, an increase in the powers of search, and the assaults on the police, were matters which were worthy of consideration.