§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, he regretted that he was not able to be 1073 present when the Bill was read the second time, as he had desired to offer some remarks upon the duties cast upon the Governing Bodies. As it now stood, it appeared to him quite possible that the wishes of the Governing Bodies might be set aside by the action of the Commissioners. The Bill provided that if the Commissioners approved of the proposition of a Governing Body, and that proposition subsequently received the approval of the Secretary of State, the application would be granted. But it was not at all impossible that in any given case the Commissioners might take an entirely different view from the Governing Body—they might make alterations such as they deemed fit; and as there was no power given to the Governing Body to the Secretary, the whole power passed, in fact, to the Commissioners. That being so, it was his intention, in Committee, to move the addition to Clause 8 of a few words taken from the Act of 1869, the effect of which would be that in cases in which the Commissioners did not approve the Petition of the Governing Body, and desired to substitute something else, it should still be open to the Governing Body to persist in their application.
§ House in Committee.
§ Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
§ Clause 3 (Interpretation of terms).
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that on the second reading he had suggested that, instead of the Home Office having the control of these matters, it would be better that they should be under the Scotch Education Department. He could only now repeat that suggestion.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had, as he had promised, considered the matter, and that he could not accept his noble Friend's proposal. He would remind his noble Friend that the Lord Advocate had always had a very close connection with these institutions, since it was his duty to see to the protection of these endowments by making application to the Courts of Law. It was not desirable, therefore, to take the powers under this Bill out of the hands of the Secretary of State or of the Lord Advocate; because they had to deal, to a great extent, with charities other than educational. The Provisional Orders to be 1074 issued under the Bill would be issued by warrants of the Secretary of State in the same way that Provisional Orders in connection with other matters connected with Scotland were issued—namely, by the authority of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (Governing Body may resolve to apply for Provisional Order).
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that during the discussion on the second reading, he had offered some remarks on the permissive character of the Bill, and had suggested that it should be made compulsory. He would ask if the noble Duke had taken his suggestion into consideration?
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that after the debate on the second reading, he had taken the proposals made during the discussion—including that of the noble Duke—into consideration; and, after consulting with his Colleagues, and especially with the Secretary of State, the conclusion at which they had arrived was that, on the whole, it was not desirable in this Bill to introduce any compulsory powers. They believed that there were a great number of the endowed schools and hospitals in Scotland—perhaps not all, but a great majority—which were prepared to avail themselves of the provisions of this measure—and they thought they should be wanting in respect to those bodies, and should be showing a want of confidence in them, if they assumed that they did not desire to reform their institutions by availing themselves of the powers provided under the Bill. He believed that they would avail themselves of those powers, and that from time to time schemes would be submitted by them for the approval of the Secretary of State. Her Majesty's Government did not propose, therefore, in the first instance, to resort to compulsory powers; but if, after a certain period of time had elapsed, they found that the institutions had not availed themselves of the powers of the Bill, then they should think it necessary to bring forward a compulsory measure, and one, too, of a much more stringent character than that now before them.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he did not wish to press the matter on the Government, when they were unwilling to 1075 adopt it; but he must express his regret that the noble Duke did not see his way to adopt the compulsory system in this Bill, to the extent, at all events, that it was adopted in the English Act. He did not think that his noble Friend was quite consistent in the conclusion he had come to, remembering the very extensive power the English Acts gave to the Commissioners of Endowed Schools, and also to the Commissioners of Oxford and Cambridge, in witholding these powers from the Commissioners under the present Bill. Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware that, in regard to the schemes furnished for the Endowed Schools in England, and with regard to the Universities, there was reserved the power of objecting. He did not know why the same rules should not be applied to the Endowed Schools in Scotland as were applied to the Endowed Schools in England. Moreover, the noble Duke was not quite consistent in his view of this measure in itself. Inasmuch as he had distinctly told their Lordships, that although the Bill was of a permissive character, the Governing Bodies would be hereafter subjected to much more compulsion than they would be by this Bill if they did not choose to come forward and avail themselves of it by forwarding schemes.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 8 (Provisional Order to be laid before Parliament).
§ THE EARL OF GALLOWAY moved the Amendment to which he referred in his observations upon going into Committee on the Bill—namely, to insert the words "on the application of the Governing Body."
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, it would have been more convenient if the noble Earl had given their Lordships Notice of the Amendment he intended to propose. He regretted that he was not able to see his way to accept the Amendment, simply for the reason that it would render the Bill of no avail. It would give the Governing Bodies of the institutions proposed to be reformed under this Bill the power of putting a direct veto upon the issuing of any scheme. That was to say, if they were not satisfied or pleased with any scheme for which a Provisional Order had been issued, they would have the power of stopping the measures.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he did not doubt that the Governing Bodies would avail themselves freely of the facilities afforded by the Bill for reforming themselves. But, nevertheless, he thought it right to say, that when modifications and amendments had been made in the schemes which they had submitted, it would be only right and proper that the Governing Bodies should have an opportunity of seeing the alterations which had been made, and of considering their effect and extent, and that he thought was the object which the noble Earl had in view in his Amendment. But he did not think the Governing Bodies should have a veto on the schemes that had been so altered and revised by the Commissioners.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that he had prepared a clause which would meet the objections his noble Friends had pointed out; but he thought it would be better to bring it forward on Report. After Clause 7, line 15, after ("order"), he proposed to insert, as a separate paragraph, these words—
("Provided also, that if the provisional order shall contain provisions different from those prayed for by the governing body, or shall omit provisions prayed for by them, the Secretary of State shall before signing the order cause a copy of it to be sent to the governing body, who may, if they think fit, state in writing to the Secretary of State any objections or suggestions respecting such order within one month after the copy thereof was sent to the governing body; and the Secretary of State shall, if he think fit, remit to the Commissioners to report on such objections and suggestions, and shall consider the same together with the report of the Commissioners.")
THE EARL OF GALLOWAY, said, that after the noble Duke's statement, he would withdraw his Amendment.
§ Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clauses 9, 10 and 11 agreed to.
§ Clause 12 (Commissioners to be appointed).
§ THE EARL OF ELGINhoped the noble Duke would not regard his Amendment as hostile to the Bill, although he deeply regretted the announcement made this evening that the Government had determined to maintain its permissive character. He proposed to strike out of the 1077 clause the denominations from which certain of the Commissioners were to be selected—because, in the first place, it limited the responsibility of the Government; and, secondly, it limited the choice of the Commissioners in a very mischievous manner. He would point out, that it could hardly be expected that a Professor of Aberdeen or Convener of a northern county could regularly attend meetings in Edinburgh; and, therefore, he was afraid they would have either a Commission representing not those denominations throughout the country, but that part of them residing within reach of Edinburgh, or else a Commission with two or three Members doing the work, under the liability of having their decisions overruled by their semi-official Colleagues at any moment. Then the noble Duke said that the Members of this Representative Body were not to be elected, but nominated by the Government; and, if so, he could not see why the usual course had not been followed—a Commission named on the responsibility of the Government, and their appointment defended, if need be, on the ground of their representative character. He was afraid the Commission, as proposed, would not give satisfaction even to those bodies in whose interest it was supposed to be devised, for he observed that already one of them had declared it one-sided; and he could not help thinking that if it were necessary to represent the several Governing Bodies—and he thought every consideration ought to be paid to local claims—it would be better to treat them in some such way as the Colleges were treated in the University Bill, by giving them a voice in their own reform, but not to imperil the permanent strength of the Commission. For these reasons, he would move the Amendments reducing the number of Commissioners from eight to five, and abolishing the qualifications imposed by the clause.
§ Amendments moved, in line 11, to leave out from ("exceed") to end of paragraph, and insert ("five"); and, in line 21, to leave out ("Chairman and the three first-named.")—(The Earl of Elgin.)
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he very much doubted whether the proposal set forth in the Amendment of the noble Earl would 1078 give them a more efficient Commission than the method proposed by the Government. He did not concur with the view of the noble Earl, that the Commission proposed by the Government would represent merely a limited part of Scotland. Instead of taking in merely a limited area of the country, they intended to take in the whole of Scotland; and he believed they did so, and that they would secure the representation of every interest in Scotland by means of the selection of the Commissioners. Nor did he think the position could be maintained that the Commission so selected would be a one-sided body? He asked their Lordships to consider the constitutions of the bodies from whom they proposed to select the Commissioners, and he thought they would come to the conclusion that a fairer selection could not have been made. Upon the Commission there would be a Principal or a Professor of one of the Scottish Universities; there would be a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland; one would be the Sheriff of a county in Scotland, one would be the Lord Provost or Provost of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, or Dundee, and one the Convener of the Commissioners of Supply of a county in Scotland. This machinery of selection would give them a body who would fairly represent every interest in Scotland, and he thought he might fairly claim that such a body would possess the confidence of Scotland in a measure above that likely to be bestowed upon one nominated by any Government. Recognizing the spirit in which the Amendment was proposed, he was sorry he could not accept it.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he was exceedingly sorry that the noble Duke did not accept the Amendment of the noble Earl (the Earl of Elgin), which was one conceived in a spirit of confidence in the Government. The object of the noble Earl was to leave the Government perfectly free in their choice. What did the noble Duke complain of? Was it that too great confidence was shown in the Government by some of those who sat on the Opposition side of the House? That was a ground of complaint which they did not often hear from Ministers in this country. If he might be allowed to read the clause as it would stand with the alteration proposed by the noble Earl, the House 1079 would be able to judge whether it would be calculated to give more strength to the position of Her Majesty's Government than could be had with the restricted choice they assigned themselves on the clause as it now stood. The clause, the Amendment being agreed to, would read thus—
For the purposes of this Act it shall be lawful for Her Majesty from time to time, on the recommendation of the Secretary of State, to appoint Commissioners to hold office during Her Majesty's pleasure, but the number of such Commissioners shall not at any one time exceed five.Supposing the Amendment now before the House to be agreed to, there would be absolutely nothing to prevent the noble Duke appointing the very officials to whom he wished to commit himself without choice. It should be remembered that the bodies to be affected by this Bill were very powerful and very independent, and it did not seem to him in the interest of the contemplated reform that the Commission to whom it was to be entrusted in so large a manner should be as free and as powerful.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that upon neither side of the House did there seem to be any inclination to support the view of the noble Duke. It did appear to him that the Commission, which was meant to be executive, was for that end constituted in a very inconvenient and unusual manner. Under the Amendment, the noble Duke could nominate the whole of the Commission upon his own responsibility—which in his (the Marquess of Ripon's) judgment, was much better than restricting his choice. If the Amendment were adopted, he could put upon the Board representatives of such interests as he chose. It was most desirable that the choice of the Government should not be confined to any particular bodies. Under the 11th clause, the Commissioners would submit for the consideration of the Scotch Education Department the conditions according to which, in their opinion, the Parliamentary Grant for Public Education in Scotland might be most advantageously distributed for the purpose of promoting education in the higher branches of knowledge in public and State-aided schools. He confessed, with the utmost possible respect for the officials named in the clause, that he did 1080 not think the persons chosen from among them were the best persons to make recommendations with respect to the disposition of the Parliamentary Grant. Under all the circumstances, he thought it would be found most inconvenient if the clause were allowed to pass in its present form. If necessary, he thought the House should divide upon the question.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLreally hoped his noble Friend the noble Duke opposite would not object to a Vote of Unlimited Confidence in the Government. After the formation of the late Government, he had charge of the Bill regarding the India Council; and, in the Conservative spirit for which that Government was so remarkable, it was proposed to keep part of the body self-elected, as it formerly had been. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) proposed a clause to the effect that the whole power of electing the India Councils should be in the hands of the Secretary of State, and upon a division the Government was beaten. He (the Duke of Argyll) accepted the power then put into his hands with a good grace, and he hoped his noble Friend opposite would in the same way receive the power it was now proposed to put into his hands. The clause was intended to give a sort of public security that the Government should appoint fit and proper men for this great duty. Now, was it really true that they would secure fit men by enacting that the Government would be bound to appoint a man who was a Sheriff? He knew many Sheriffs of counties in Scotland who were ignorant of the matters dealt with by the Bill, because they had never given their minds to them. They were able enough men as regarded their own duties, but there was nothing in them which would qualify them to discharge the functions which this clause would confer upon them in case of their selection by the Government. With respect to the provision for choosing one of the Provosts of the great cities in Scotland, there was one remark to be made—that they had very little time or attention left to bestow upon matters outside their own onerous duties. A like remark applied to the other officers named, and he strongly urged that the better plan would be to throw the whole responsibility upon the Government. The qualifica 1081 tions laid down in the Bill were really no qualifications at all.
LORD GORDONsaid, he was delighted at the unrestricted confidence shown in the Government; but they should remember that the Government had given much attention to the matter, and selected for Members of the Commission the persons who they thought would best represent public opinion in Scotland. With the exception of the noble Duke who had just sat down (the Duke of Argyll), no one urged any objection to the fitness of the official persons referred to in the clause. The noble Duke complained that the Sheriffs of counties were not fit persons for this duty; but did he forget that, under the Act of 1869, the Sheriffs of counties were the only persons who were to make the inquiries?—and that, therefore, when the Government took the Sheriffs of counties as a class from which to choose these Commissioners, they were simply following the example of the late Government? The officials named, he thought, represented very fairly the interests of the towns and counties. The towns were very much interested in this, by large charities being situated in Edinburgh, Glasgow, and other towns.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, the proposition of the Government would not be acceptable to the Governing Bodies in Scotland.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, between the present time and the third reading, he would consider whether, without damaging the measure as a whole, some change might be made in the clause to meet the view of his noble Friends. If so, he would introduce some alteration upon that stage, which he hoped to take tomorrow evening.
§ Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.