Lords Sitting of 4 April 1878

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Rodney, after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Metropolis Improvement provisional Orders Confirmation (Bowman's Buildings, Marylebone &c.) *(61).
Second Reading—Threshing Machines (50); Marine Mutiny*.
Select Committee—Contagious Diseases (Animals) * (37), Lord Harlech added v. the Marquess of Salisbury.
Committee—Bishoprics (43–63).
Third Reading—Mutiny *,and passed.

ARMY—THE RESERVES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD CAMPBELL: My Lords. I wish to put a Question to the noble Viscount the Under Secretary of State for War, of which I have given him private Notice. Let me disclaim all idea of disparaging the steps which the War Office are now taking. My impression is that it is only by those steps that war can be averted and the Conference secured. The Question I wish to put—if Her Majesty's

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  Government see no public inconvenience in answering it—is, Whether any measures are contemplated in regard to the Militia, to pave the way for making that Force available abroad beyond the present limitations?
  VISCOUNT BURY: The noble Lord asks me a Question, of which he has not given Notice, whether certain steps which he suggested on the 21st of March have been adopted by the War Office? I can only say that no such proposals have reached the War Office, and I therefore must request the noble Lord to give Notice in the usual manner.

FOUNDERING OF H.M.S. "EURYDICE."

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD DUNSANYsaid, he desired to ask his noble Friend who represented the Admiralty in their Lordships' House, Whether any steps have been taken to raise the Eurydice; and, whether, as had been asserted, she spread a quantity of canvas out of proportion as compared to other ships? That had been asserted in several papers, and perhaps his noble Friend would answer whether that was the fact or not? If it were so, it would go far to account for the accident. As to raising the ship—beyond the obvious advantage of recovering a vessel of some value, and the remains of those who were lost in her, in whom so many families must be interested, he wished to point out that a certain moral value attached to a successful effort to recover the loss sustained. It was not merely by successful engagements that the reputation of the Service had been sustained —sometimes as much credit could be gained by recovering a ship as by taking an enemy's. As an instance of this, he might mention that the Gorgon, a ship of war, was lost under extraordinary circumstances. She was blown up almost on to dry land—at all events, she was left on dry land—and the very skilful efforts of her crew were successful in restoring that ship to the service of the country. He wished, therefore, to know whether it was the intention of the Admiralty to take any steps for recovering the Eurydice, and whether that was to be done by the resources of the Navy or by means of a contractor? He trusted it would rather be by the resources of the Navy than by any other means; because it must be obvious that the experience
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  that would be gained in recovering a ship like this would be of considerable advantage to the country in future wars. He was not aware whether, since the case of the Gorgon, there had been any case of a ship being recovered to the Service by the efforts of their own officers and sailors.
  LORD ELPHINSTONEsaid, in answer to the Question of his noble Friend, he had to state that the Dockyard authorities at Portsmouth were making all the necessary preparations for raising the Eurydice. Divers were at work in removing the upper spars and sails, and other impedimenta. When that was accomplished, it was intended to attach four lighters to the wreck at low water, the effect of which would be that, as the tide rose, the vessel would lift; and she would then be towed into the shallow water of Sandown Bay. The ports, hatchways, and other openings would then be closed, and the vessel pumped out. Should the weather continue favourable for diving operations, it was hoped the vessel might be taken into Portsmouth Harbour in about three weeks' time. He need scarcely say that a strict and searching investigation would be made into the condition of the ship, and it was intended that the Court of Inquiry should not be held until these conditions were known. Whether anything would be discovered that might account for a catastrophe, that was without precedent in the annals of their Navy with regard to ships of this class, it was useless now to speculate on; but, for his own part, he must confess that he was not sanguine that such would be the case. With regard to the Question whether the Eurydice carried heavier spars or a greater spread of canvas than other ships of her class, he had to reply that she had precisely the same masts, yards, and sails as those carried by the 11—he thought—other ships of that class built by Sir Thomas Symonds, to compete with which the Eurydice was built by Admiral Elliot.

  BISHOPRICS BILL—(No. 43.)
  (The Lord Steward.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDsaid, that the counties of Durham, Northum-

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  berland, and Cumberland—especially in Durham, which see was not a large one —very strong objection was felt to the division of that see as contemplated by the Bill; but, at the same time, no doubt, when once it was determined that there should be an additional bishopric, the people of the new diocese would come forward, with their usual liberality, to find funds. He confessed he did not see any necessity for dividing the present diocese, and hoped that no immediate steps would be taken in that direction. He did not see why the funds of the present bishopric should be reduced by £1,000 a-year.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPreminded the noble Duke that, on the occasion of the second reading of the Bill, the Bishop of Durham expressed his strong approval of the measure. Although the new see of Durham would not be a large one, he thought there were sufficient grounds for taking the subject into consideration; because, although the county of Durham was not large, that of Northumberland was, and he quoted the statistics showing the extent and population of Northumberland. The observations of the noble Duke struck at the Bill altogether; and it must, at the same time, be remembered that this was not a compulsory, but an enabling Bill.
  House in Committee.
  Amendments made.
  On the Motion of the Earl of POWIS, the following words were added at end of Clause 2:—
  ("Such contributions may include any gift or bequest of real and personal property not exceeding the limits prescribed by this Act for the endowment fund of each bishopric; and the powers of donors to bestow and of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to receive such gifts shall be the same as those enacted in the Act of second and third years of the reign of Queen Anne, chapter eleven, and of an Act of the forty-third year of the reign of King George the third, chapter one hundred and seven, enabling donors to vest gifts in the Governors of the Bounty of Queen Anne for the augmentation of the maintenance of the poor clergy for the benefit of ministers officiating in churches and chapels.")
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE, who had given Notice of a new clause, enabling a Bishop—save the Bishops of London, Durham, or Winchester—who may be above 75 years of age, or have
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  held a bishopric 25 years or more, to resign his seat in Parliament, said, that being Chairman of the Committee, he was unable to move his Amendment at that stage; he would, therefore, reserve it for the Report.
  Clause 10 (New style of Bishop of Rochester).
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY moved to omit the clause which provides that the Bishop of Rochester shall, after the passing of this Act, be styled Bishop of Rochester and Southwark, and insert the following clause:—
  ("Notwithstanding anything contained in section 9, sub-section 2, of the Bishopric of Saint Albans Act, 1875, it shall be lawful for the person who at the passing of this Act is Archdeacon of Rochester and Saint Albans, if and when the Archdeaconry of Rochester shall have been severed from the Archdeaconry of Saint Albans under the provisions of the Bishopric of Saint Albans Act, 1875, to resign the archidiaconal jurisdiction conferred upon him as archdeacon of the Archdeaconry of Saint Albans by ' The London Diocese Act, 1863,' without thereby vacating the canonry in the cathedral church of Rochester annexed to the Archdeaconry of Saint Albans, and to continue to hold such canonry so long as he continues to be Archdeacon of Saint Albans.
  ("The Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England may pay out of their common fund any sum not exceeding two hundred pounds to the person who may upon such resignation be appointed Archdeacon of Rochester until the next avoidance of the canonry now held by the Archdeacon of Rochester and Saint Albans.
  (" 'Parish' in the Bishopric of Saint Albans Act, 1875, shall he taken to have the same meaning with 'ecclesiastical parish' in this Act.")
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 63.)

THRESHING MACHINES BILL—(No. 50.)
(The Lord Walsingham.)
THRESHING MACHINES BILL—(No. 50.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD WALSINGHAM, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, he was far from claiming that the Bill which he was about to ask their Lordships to read a second time was as complete a measure as it might ultimately be desirable to introduce for the purpose of diminishing the risk of accidents to agricultural labourers by machinery of this kind. He was aware

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  that various accidents would occur from different kinds of machinery, and, perhaps, some even from threshing machines, which it was beyond the power or purpose of this Bill to prevent. But in recommending the Bill to their Lordships in its present form, he would urge its acceptance on the ground of an immediate and pressing necessity for some commencement of legislation in the direction indicated. The great majority of their Lordships were, probably, only too painfully aware of the dangers which attended the working of an ordinary unprotected threshing machine by young, unsteady, or inexperienced hands. He supposed there was scarcely a village, or, at least, scarcely a group of villages, in any of the corn-growing districts where an instance was not to be heard of in which some unfortunate labourer had not fallen a victim to the present system; and it was a significant fact that since the equivalent of the present Bill, owing to certain obstructive political tactics, failed to survive what was generally known as ''the Massacre of the Innocents," in "another place," last Session, at least 10 or 12 fatal or serious accidents had been added to the sad list. By far the greater part of these accidents occurred from the men on the drum of the machine, before leaving off work, pushing the loose corn towards the feeder with their feet, instead of sweeping it with a broom. The feeder himself, who stood in a sort of box provided for the purpose, was not, with ordinary care, exposed to much risk of accident; but those who stood on the floor of the drum, should they inadvertently approach too near the mouth, or attempt, as they often did, to kick the corn forward towards where the beaters were revolving, might in a moment be drawn into the machinery and fatally or fearfully injured. Now, their Lordships would be aware that several different degrees of protection might be afforded by means of the various inventions and appliances which had been devised for that purpose. Probably, the most perfect and complete safety would be insured by the adoption of some self-acting feeding apparatus—such as that of Mr. Wilder, which had been much exhibited and approved; and he, for one, would gladly see the use of some such protection made compulsory by law; but the cost of this apparatus, amounting to about £20 on
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  each machine to which it was applied, would be at once a heavy tax upon farmers, and would create strong opposition to the establishment of the compulsory system if insisted on in such a form; whereas, by some more convenient and less costly method, an almost equal protective result might be attained. He was assured that a very good and sufficient guard could be applied by means of a simple rail or fence, which could be raised when work was going on and lowered at other time, and that the actual cost of such a guard would not be more than from 15 s. to 20 s. Now, if the present Bill would only insure the invariable adoption of some such simple precaution as that, it would probably reduce the number of accidents by 60 or 70 per cent, and so far fulfil the best hopes of its promoters. It might be argued that the labourers ought to have sense enough to take care of themselves; but, unfortunately, among that class of men, too much familiarity seemed to breed a certain contempt for the dangers arising from momentary inattention or carelessness; and he need hardly remind their Lordships that there were many precedents for protective legislation—such as were to be found, for instance, in the Acts relating to factories and coal mines. He would gladly see the provisions of the Bill extended to several other kinds of machinery, such as steam saws and chaff-cutters; but if it should be found desirable to deal with this subject, a very short supplementary Act would easily effect the object; whereas, since this Bill had now obtained the unanimous assent of the other House of Parliament, it would be most unfortunate, by the introduction of any unnecessary Amendments, to run the risk of consigning so useful a measure to the fate which had befallen it on more than one former occasion in that "other place." Whether their Lordships concurred in that view or not, he would venture to express a hope that they would at least approve the principle of the Bill, and now read it a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord, Walsingham.)
  THE EARL OF MORLEYasked why the Bill was not to extend to Ireland or Scotland?
  LORD WALSINGHAMsaid, he did not exactly know, but believed it to be

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  the result of the opposition which the proposal to include them had met with in the other House last year.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow,

  METROPOLIS IMPROVEMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BOWMAN'S BUILDINGS, MARYLEBONE, &c.) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State for the Improvement of certain unhealthy areas within the Metropolis—Was presented by The LORD STEWARD; read la, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 61.)
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.