Lords Sitting of 1 April 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Factories and Workshops* (57).
Second Reading—Education (Scotland) (47); Mutiny.
Select Committee—Contagious Diseases (Animals)* (37), The Lord Crofton added.
Committee—Entail Amendment (Scotland)* (28); Public Baths and Washhouses* (39).

VICTORIA—THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYasked the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any further information has been received as to the "dead-lock" between the Houses of Legislation in the Colony of Victoria?
EARL CADOGANsaid, that on Saturday a telegram was received at the Colonial Office from the Governor of Victoria, which led the Government to hope that the crisis was at an end. The telegram was in these terms—
"March 29.
"Council have finally accepted proposed compromise. Crisis happily ended. Appropriation Bill will be passed forthwith and Session closed next week. General public satisfaction at this settlement. Political animosities will soon subside."

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN.

  CALLING OUT OF THE RESERVE FORCES.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I am commanded by the Queen to deliver a Message from Her Majesty.
  MESSAGE, read by THE LORD CHANCELLOR, as follows:—
  "VICTORIA R.
  "The present state of public affairs in the East, and the necessity in connection therewith of taking steps for the maintenance of peace and for the protection of the interests of the Empire, having constituted in the opinion of Her Majesty a case of great emergency within the meaning of the Acts of Parliament in that behalf, Her Majesty deems it proper to provide additional means for Her Military Service, and therefore in pursuance of those Acts Her Majesty has thought it right to communicate to the House of Lords that Her Majesty is about to cause Her Reserve Force and Her Militia Reserve Force, or such part thereof as Her Majesty shall think necessary, to be forthwith called out for permanent service. V. R."
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I had intended to propose that on Thursday next I should move an Address to the Crown thanking Her Majesty for Her gracious communication; but I think it would be convenient and satisfactory that the Motion should be made in both Houses of Parliament

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  on the same day. I believe there has been some difficulty respecting the day in the other House—whether it should be Thursday or Monday. Perhaps, therefore, your Lordships will allow me to leave the matter in this way for the present—the understanding is that the Motion shall be made in your Lordships' House on the same day as it is made in the other House of Parliament. Whether that day shall be Thursday or Monday next we shall know, probably, in the course of the evening. I take this opportunity of laying on the Table of your Lordships' House some further Papers on the Affairs of Turkey.
  EARL GREY: My Lords, though it would be obviously premature to express, or even to form, an opinion on the expediency of the measure announced to us by Her Majesty's Message which has just been read, until the reasons for it have, at the proper time, been explained to us, I hope it will not be considered premature if I now venture to express a hope that when the time comes for taking Her Majesty's Message into consideration, Her Majesty's Ministers will explain to Parliament very clearly what is the ultimate purpose for which the measure to which the Message refers is adopted by the Government. My Lords, we all know how very grave a measure it is to call out the Reserves. We know that, under the Act of Parliament by which the Force is constituted, such a step can be taken only at a time of great national danger or of great emergency. It is due to the men who compose those Forces, and requisite in order fairly to fulfil the engagements you have entered into with them, that the rule laid down by the law should be strictly adhered to—because, in calling out these men, you impose on them very heavy sacrifices. Many of them may be compelled to forego employment which they may not be able to obtain again; in the case of many of them, there will be a serious interruption of business; and many of them will be taken from families who can ill-spare their assistance. Therefore, my Lords, the measure of calling out the Reserve Forces is a most serious one, and when Parliament is asked to approve it, the case for it should be very clearly explained. And I beg to say that it will not be enough to tell us that the honour and safety of the country are at stake, and that it is absolutely necessary
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  that the Government should insist that the whole of the Treaty between Russia and Turkey should be submitted to the consideration of the European Powers. We must have more than that before we can form a judgment. I am not here to question the right of this country to demand that the whole Treaty should be so submitted, nor will I stop to discuss what limits there may be to that right; but I would make this observation—that the demand can only be made because, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, some modifications of that Treaty are necessary. If the Treaty were satisfactory, as it stands, no particular object would be gained in requiring it to be submitted to a Congress; and, therefore, it must be considered that the end in view is some change or modification of the Treaty. Further than that, we may assume this—that Her Majesty's Government think some changes in that Treaty are so necessary, and the honour and interests of this country are so deeply involved in their being made, that they are prepared to insist on them even at the risk of being compelled to do so by force of arms—for that, in short, is the effect and meaning of the measure which has been announced to us. Now, my Lords, if that is so, I trust when the House is called on to consider Her Majesty's Message, Her Ministers will explain to the House what are the changes and what the modifications in the Treaty to obtain which they thought this measure necessary. Of course, I do not expect that they could go into details in regard to the changes they may choose to insist on, and still less do I desire that they should commit themselves to any particular steps on which they will insist in their negotiations with other Powers; but, undoubtedly, it appears to me that they cannot have resolved upon this measure without having formed in their own minds some clear conception of, at least, the general character of the changes they propose to ask for. If that is so, I think Parliament and the nation have a right to know, before we go further, what is the character of the changes contemplated. I am not surprised that Her Majesty's Government should regard the Treaty, as it stands, as unsatisfactory. It is impossible to study it without seeing that virtually it makes Russia absolute mistress of

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  European Turkey. I do not see how anyone examining it can come to any other conclusion. But what is important to know is, as matters now stand, how is this unfortunate result to be averted? We all have some general conception of the objects for which changes in the Treaty would be desirable; but we ought to have something more definite than that. We ought to know something of the nature of the changes by which it is supposed that these objects might be accomplished. We have had too striking and too recent proofs of the danger of being content with mere phrases and indefinite announcements, without having laid down a clear view of the policy intended. It is time, when matters are becoming so serious, that we should be clearly informed of what is in contemplation. For my own part, I think this is the more necessary, because it appears to me that the problem which the Government will have to work out when they come to consider in what manner the arrangements between Russia and Turkey may be rendered more free from objection, will be found a very difficult one. My Lords, it appears to me, no one in his senses can suppose it possible to again set up the authority of Turkey; but I confess that, for my own part, I am utterly at a loss to conceive in what manner any other satisfactory authority to take its place in the government of these Provinces can be constituted. The result has, I think, justified the opinion I expressed in this House last year, that if an attempt were made to overthrow by force the power of Turkey in the Christian Provinces, a bloody war would ensue, which would cause infinitely more suffering than Turkish misgovernment in very many years, which would end by leaving things in a worse state than they were when it began, and which would probably lead to the virtual establishment of the dominion of Russia, which would prove more oppressive and more unfavourable to improvement than that of Turkey. As to the sufferings that would ensue, my anticipation has been confirmed by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), who represented this country at the Conference of Constantinople, who not long ago said in this House that this terrible war had compressed within a few months a greater amount of human misery than
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  Turkish rule would have produced in generations. I fear the difficulty of providing for the future government of the Provinces in which Turkish authority has been destroyed will also be found as great as I expected. My Lords, I thought last year, as I think now, that if Her Majesty's Government had then pursued a more direct and generous policy than they did, this dreadful war might have been averted. I believe that this might then have been accomplished by a firm exercise of British power, with far less danger of our being ourselves involved in war than will now be incurred. But, having lost that opportunity, we ought to have it explained to us how our interference can now be made really useful. I trust your Lordships will excuse me for having made these remarks—the more especially as I may not be able to take a part in the discussion on the Motion of which the noble Earl at the head of the Government has given Notice.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE: My Lords, I must say I cannot conceive anything more likely to embarrass the negotiations on a subject of such importance as the manner in which this Treaty should be dealt with, than that the Government should take the advice of the noble Earl and state within the next two or three days at latest the changes in the Treaty which they would insist upon.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I think it would be more convenient, as proposed by the noble Earl at the head of the Government, that the discussion on the Message from the Crown should not be held this evening. At the same time, I must express my very great satisfaction that the noble Earl (Earl Grey), who, I regret to hear, will probably be unable to take that part in that discussion—as he has done in former debates so much to our advantage—should have stated what he has stated this evening. He has really asked a Question in this House which everybody in the country is asking outside, and, so far as I am aware, without any answer having yet been given to it. I am quite sure that an answer to it has not been given in the very meagre Correspondence which has been presented to Parliament. I do not say anything at the present time with regard to the questions raised by that Correspondence; but I shall

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  make a few observations as to the void in it. Firstly, I cannot come to a conclusion from the Correspondence as to the difficulty which exists between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Russia. I cannot infer from the Correspondence whether Her Majesty's Government or the Government of Russia was the more unwilling to enter into a Conference. I hope that further Papers will show that I am wrong, but it would appear from the Papers now before us that no other Power agreed in the course taken by Her Majesty's Government. The noble Earl at the head of the Government has laid some Papers on the Table this evening. I venture to hope that those Papers will in some degree answer the Question which my noble Friend (Earl Grey) has put to the Government, and will show at all events the general view of Her Majesty's Government, which do not appear very clearly in the Correspondence already before us. In the second place, I do think we have a right to ask of Her Majesty's Government, in their own interest as well as ours, that we should have in the Papers the communications which passed between them and the other European Powers on this subject. It may be said that those are confidential communications. I can perfectly understand that in diplomatic communications there may be things said of a confidential kind and which it would be imprudent to make known to the whole world; but in a question of such enormous importance as this, I cannot conceive how Her Majesty's Government could have abstained from communicating with the whole of the Great Powers of Europe, and if they have we have no means of forming any judgment as to the general opinion of the other Powers as to those proceedings. With regard to the day on which the Message from the Crown is to be taken into consideration, it will be best, perhaps, that the noble Earl should fix it tomorrow, as there seems to be some doubt respecting the day fixed in the other House. I understand that the Financial Statement will interfere with the discussion of this question in the other House. I believe—though I am not quite sure—that the usual course would be for the noble Earl to move that Her Majesty's Message be taken into consideration on a certain day. It
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  is most important that it should be considered in this House on the same day as in the other House, and I hope that, if necessary, the noble Earl will postpone his Motion until Monday next. I repeat my hope that the Papers laid before the House will fill up the immense void which now appears in the Correspondence.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I will not avail myself of this opportunity of entering on a general discussion of the subject which the noble Earl opposite has raised. I have laid some Papers on the Table to-night which I trust the noble Earl who has just addressed us will peruse with profit and perhaps not without satisfaction; but, until that has taken place, it would be quite irregular to make any reference to them. I now understand that in the other House of Parliament a desire has been expressed by the Members generally that the Budget should be brought forward on the day originally intended—Thursday next; and although we were quite ready to sacrifice that day, we are equally prepared now to meet what we understand to be the concurrent wish of both Houses, and to fix the discussion on the Motion for the Address on Her Majesty's Gracious Message for this day week.
  EARL GRANVILLE: Is the noble Earl in a position to state the character of the Motion which he will make?
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: I will move an Address of thanks to Her Majesty for Her Gracious communication.
  Ordered that the said Message be taken into consideration on Monday next.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  (The Lord President.)
  (NO. 47.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he desired to make a few observations with respect to the possible operation of the Bill as regarded Scotland. As their Lordships were aware, there was an important difference between the circumstances of England and Scotland with

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  regard to education. The Act of 1872 established throughout Scotland a system of direct compulsion, whereas that system was not generally introduced into England even directly until the Act of 1876. By the present Bill, his noble Friend proposed to introduce into Scotland another system of compulsion similar to that introduced into England by the Act of 1876; and on that point, he need only say that he supposed the Lord President was satisfied that there would be no inconvenience in the simultaneous existence of those two systems. But it seemed to him (the Marquess of Ripon) that some inconvenience and interference might arise between the two systems—the one with the other; and, therefore, he desired to ask his noble Friend if he had carefully considered that point, and had satisfied himself that a person could not be prosecuted twice for the same offence—that was to say, both under the Act of 1872 and under the proposed Statute? As his noble Friend would admit, such a proceeding would be totally unjust. One of the provisions of the Bill required attention. Several of the clauses contained the words "inspected school;" but he did not find in the Bill any definition of those words, and he wished to know whether he was right in supposing that under this Bill an "inspected school" in Scotland meant the same thing as a certified efficient school in England under the Act of 1876. He thought that, when introducing a stringent measure of the kind before the House, it was essentially necessary that the privileges to parents should be as wide in Scotland as in England. With respect to another portion of the measure, he was afraid he should receive little support from either side of the House in the views which he held. Clause 20 provided that Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools might, under certain regulations, be employed, by the appointment of the Scotch Education Department, to inspect any school in which the education given was not purely elementary, with reference to the higher branches of knowledge taught therein. Now, that was a step in the direction of placing those schools more under the control of Her Majesty's Government, which would ultimately end in their obtaining a large grant of public money. He seriously doubted the propriety of that
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  step, and against it he desired to enter his protest. Again, Clauses 17 and 18 provided that under certain contingencies vacancies in school boards should be filled up on the nomination of the Education Department. That was a very considerable power—a power unnecessary in many instances; and, that being so, he ventured to suggest to his noble Friend, that it would in this Bill be far better to follow the precedent of the English Act. In the Act of 1872, and also in the Act of 1876, there were provisions under which children of poor parents, not paupers, were entitled to have their school fees paid for them by the Boards of Guardians. Now, there was reason to believe that in some parts of Scotland those provisions had not been fairly worked—that the parochial Boards had not recognized the duty absolutely imposed upon them in respect to the payment of the fees of such children, and therefore he should be glad to learn from the noble Duke whether he would have the goodness carefully to direct his attention to that point, so that the just rights of poor parents might not be set aside by the want of action on the part of local authorities. He made these remarks in no spirit of unfriendliness, for he had no intention of opposing the second reading of the Bill.
  THE EARL OF CAMPEBDOWNsaid, that certain defects had been discovered in the operation of existing Acts which had not been dealt with in the present Bill. Some of those very defects were alluded to two or three years ago in "another place" by the late Sir William Stirling Maxwell, who was one of the Scotch Education Board. The first Question he wished to ask was, whether it was intended that in the future there should be any central audit of the accounts of school boards? Under the Act of 1872, an accountant was appointed by the Scotch Education Board, who sent in an annual report of the accounts of the school boards; but that official had no power to disallow any expenditure he thought to be improper, and, as a consequence, his reports had no practical effect. Now, from that he concluded that the accountant would be abolished also. He wished to know, then, whether, in future, an auditor would be appointed by the Education Department to discharge the duty which

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  had hitherto been discharged by the accountant; and, if so, whether some provision would be made that his audit should be effectual? Another point he desired to raise was this—under the Act of 1872, school boards had the power to take over the schools of religious and other bodies upon certain conditions; but no power was given to defray any debt existing upon such schools so transferred, and the consequence was that frequently great inconvenience was occasioned, amounting in some cases to the necessity of the actual building of a new school. There was only one other point to which he would refer. By the 45th section of the Act of 1872, power was given to borrow money for the enlargement of schools, but no such power was given in respect to other equally important alterations and improvements. There were such improvements as enclosing playgrounds, bringing water into the schools, and providing furniture. These he took to be of equal importance with any question of enlargement. He should be glad if his noble Friend could see his way, when the Bill went before the other House, to introduce clauses for carrying all or any of the suggestions he had made.
  THE EARL OF MINTOwas understood to call attention to the system of voting directed. under the present law, the consequence of which often was that the most eligible candidate was often defeated because people made sure that he must be elected.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he desired, in the first place, to thank his noble Friend opposite (the Marquess of Ripon) for the kind manner in which he had spoken of the Bill, and also for affording the opportunity of explaining some of the provisions to which he had referred, and the way in which, in his opinion, they would affect Scotland. His noble Friend compared the powers of compulsion which existed under the present law with those which it was proposed to enforce under this Bill, and pointed out how impolitic it was, in his opinion, that a parent should, under the operation of two separate Acts, be fined twice for the same offence. He (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) agreed with the objection of the noble Marquess, and could say that the Government had not, at all events, intended that the objectionable
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  feature which he had pointed out should be found in the Bill. He would, therefore, look into the Bill again, and if he found that anything in it justified the remarks of his noble Friend, he would see whether some alteration could not be devised. Then, the noble Marquess alluded to the 11th clause, and, comparing the words "inspected school" in the Bill to the words "certified efficient school" in the English Act, inquired what was the reason for the distinction? He (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) had no hesitation in saying that the intention of the Education Department was that the "inspected school" referred to in the clause should be practically equivalent to the "certified efficient school" in the English Act. Then, his noble Friend adverted to Clause 20—though he said he was afraid his objections would not be generally shared by the House. He was happy to think that on this point the expectation of his noble Friend had been realized. By the Act of 1872, they wished as much as possible to improve education generally throughout the country. There were some who considered that elementary education had been promoted at the expense of secondary education in Scotland. He (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) could not admit that he shared in that view; but they had endeavoured to deal fairly and properly with secondary education, and they had thought that the whole education of the country would be benefited rather than injured by the operation of the clause. His noble Friend also spoke as to the payment by the parochial boards of the school fees of the children of parents who were unable themselves to pay; but that was a point which did not, as he thought, come within the scope of the Bill, though he concurred in deeming the matter worthy of consideration. So far as his experience enabled him to judge, the amount involved was not large; but, as attention had been called to the subject, he would look further into it, and see whether it was of sufficient importance to warrant its being dealt with in the Bill. His noble Friend next referred to Clauses 17 and 18— clauses which give the Department power to add members to a school board for the purpose of there being a quorum. His noble Friend thought that this was rather an extensive power, and that

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  either it might be modified or there might be an alternative power of ordering a bye-election. He confessed he was far from saying that such an alteration might not properly be introduced, and now that it had been suggested he would see whether it could be adopted. He did not think either power would be acted upon very often; but in Committee he would either accept words of his noble Friend, or propose words himself, to enable the Department as an alternative to order a bye-election. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Camperdown) touched upon several points, among them the question of audit. He (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) was quite ready to admit that it was most important there should be a proper audit; but he was not at all clear that this was the proper measure to deal with the question. He rather thought the matter would more appropriately come within the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board, and he hoped that it would be found possible to introduce a provision to meet the case in some Bill that might come before Parliament. In regard to the other point raised by the noble Earl, he considered that when a school was transferred it ought to be transferred without debt. Then, his noble Friend asserted that the 45th section of the Act of 1872 had not worked satisfactorily. The 19th clause of the present Bill was intended to meet the difficulties which had arisen under that section. The only other subject that he need touch upon was the Schedule. That Schedule was inserted in the Bill, in order, if possible, to put an end to the unsatisfactory manner in which elections in various school board districts had been carried out in Scotland. Before the last election the Department issued a circular for the purpose of remedying a state of things which was generally admitted to be unsatisfactory. The circular was acted upon, and had produced satisfactory results. Some people, however, thought that in taking such a step the Department acted ultra vires. What they did they did from the best possible motives; but a doubt having arisen as to their power to issue the rules and regulations they had issued, it was thought better to make the matter perfectly clear, and get it perfectly settled, and therefore it was that they had inserted the Schedule in the Bill. The
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  mode of conducting elections in Scotland would henceforth be the same as in England, and he was not prepared to say that that would be a bad mode of procedure.
  THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYsuggested that boards should be elected for five years instead of three. It was desirable because the expense of elections would be reduced by quinquennial elections.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONbelieved that by the assimilation of the system in the two countries, the expense of elections would be reduced; but he did not think it would be wise to extend the existence of the boards.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 9th instant.

  MUTINY BILL.
  (The Viscount Bury.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, that on previous occasions when this Bill had been before the House, he had been of opinion that instead of the letter "D" being branded on deserters, it would be better to mark all who entered the Army to show they were soldiers. Since the discussion which had taken place and the arguments he had heard, however, he had come to the conclusion that it would be better to revert to the old system.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LOCOMOTION—RAILWAY PASSENGER DUTY.—PETITION.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  LORD HOUGHTON, in presenting a Petition for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the subject of taxes on locomotion from an Association formed for the purpose of procuring the remission of the passenger duty, said, that the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons in 1876 distinctly recommended either the abolition or modification of the duty as soon

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  as the financial condition of the country would permit it. In the present condition and prospects of the country, he did not say that he thought that object could be immediately realized; but, undoubtedly, there was an anomaly in the present state of the law which ought to be corrected. In 1844 an Act—the Cheap Trains Act—was passed for the purpose of giving improved means of railway accommodation to the poorer classes of travellers, by establishing trains to carry passengers at a rate not exceeding 1d. per mile, adding, among other conditions, that these trains should stop at every station; and these trains were exempted from the passenger duty. It was soon found that that condition could not be carried out without great inconvenience; but the railway companies, by way of compromise, agreed to carry travellers at the rate of 1d. per mile by some of their express trains for long distances. The Board of Trade accepted these conditions, and exempted these trains in the same way as the 1d. a-mile trains from the tax affecting the third-class passengers. The Board of Inland Revenue, however, took exception to this practice, the question was referred to the legal authorities, and a decision was given by the Court of Exchequer to the effect that the Board of Trade had exceeded their legal powers. The case afterwards came before their Lordships in their judicial capacity, when they affirmed that decision. It was found, however, that the result of carrying that decision into effect would be so serious that the Board of Inland Revenue had not enforced it. So that they had the Board of Trade and the Board of Inland Revenue acting on different views of the question. The present condition of the law was anomalous, and the Petitioners prayed that a Select Committee of their Lordships' House should be appointed to examine into the matter.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, the noble Lord had been so kind as to show him the Petition which he had presented. He had read it carefully, and although it apparently dealt with one point only—the state of the law as to exemption under the Cheap Trains Act, 1844—it was impossible not to see that the appointment of a Select Committee of their Lordships' House to inquire into this particular point, would involve an inquiry into the whole question of taxes on locomotion,
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  or—to describe it more accurately—the railway passenger duty. Their Lordships were aware, no doubt, that this question was one of no small difficulty, and comprised a great number of matters of detail, with respect to which a great variety of opinions prevailed among those who were affected by the tax. It did not, however, appear to him to be a question with which a Committee of their Lordships could deal usefully. The Petition itself admitted that no inquiry was necessary, for it stated that the only remedy for the evil complained of was the total exemption of certain classes of railway traffic from the tax which they now had to bear. He did not wish to lay too great stress on that point; but he must remind their Lordships that a Committee of the House of Commons sat during the Session of 1876 to inquire into the whole subject. That Committee heard a great deal of evidence—not only evidence from all those affected by the tax, but evidence of the servants of the Crown whose duty it was to administer the law as it now stood. The Committee reported; and last Session there was a long debate in the House of Commons upon the Report, when, as might be supposed, the whole question was still more fully discussed. Anyone who looked into the matter could, he thought, have little hesitation in agreeing with the Committee that the railway passenger duty could not be considered as a question which affected the convenience of the public who used the railways for travelling; but that it must be considered as a fiscal matter. As a fiscal matter, he believed it was not a subject which could be conveniently dealt with by their Lordships. Under these circumstances, he did not think it would be desirable for him to go into any of the details of this complicated question. However, he did not wish for a moment to dispute the inconveniences which were complained of, and which arose from the exemptions of payment of the tax, which were at present granted. He had already stated that this question was a very complicated one, and it could without difficulty be shown that it would not be easy to provide any substitute for the tax, as at present levied, which would not operate unfairly, or unequally upon the different companies. In the event even of its being possible at some future time to deal with this duty, great care should be taken that, in any fresh arrangement

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  which, might be made, regard should be had to the general interests of the public; for it must be remembered that a remission of the whole or part of the duty would in no way increase the facilities of locomotion, but would simply place so many thousand pounds in the pockets of the shareholders. He was sure that, for the reasons he had stated, the noble Lord would agree with him that no useful object could be attained by the appointment of the Committee which he moved for, and for which the Petition prayed. To the Motion, and the prayer of the Petition, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, he was unable to accede.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, that this was a question which had been very much misunderstood. The objects of the cheap trains were that the poor man who travelled short distances might be able to enter a train and to leave it at any station he chose; but, in consequence of the change that had been made, the trains often ran past several stations, and in consequence it was not always possible for a man to land at the station where he wished to alight, and the persons benefited were not the poor, but those who travelled long distances. The tax was an excellent one, and no objection had been taken to it until it was seen that it brought so large a sum into the Exchequer.
  Petition ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.