§ LORD WAVENEY,in rising to move an Address on the subject of commerce in the Mediterranean, said, that he spoke neither in reference to nor on behalf of either of the belligerents, nor in reference to nor on behalf of either of the political Parties in that House. His desire was to elicit from Her Majesty's Government a statement of the measures they intended to adopt for the protection of our maritime interests in the event of a prolongation of this war. A hope was indulged that the war would be localized. He felt it impossible to join in such an anticipation—it was a war, he thought, the effects of which were likely to be felt from the North Cape to Aden. It was no exaggeration, he thought, to term it a war of unexampled extent, though he trusted it would not be a war of unexampled duration. Was it possible that it could be localized? If not, all the trade of the Levant would be imperilled. It was not impossible that hostilities would be carried into the Mediterranean, and the first cannon shot fired in that sea would lot loose all the 356 elements of revolt and disturbance along its shores, and thus seriously disturb the commerce of neutrals, and especially of this country. Pirates in the direction of the Islands of the Levant and along the low-lying coasts of Dalmatia would then find their account in such a state of disturbance, and would issue forth to prey upon commerce indiscriminately, as they had done during the Greek War of Independence. The introduction of steam into the Commercial Marine, by making the vessels which used it more visible at a distance, increased in one way the dangers of piracy. Then there were very grave questions as to blockade and contraband of war—among which coal was now reckoned — respecting which an arrangement among the Maritime Powers might be very desirable. He had heard on good authority hat even if Port Said was blockaded a free passage through the Suez Canal with the aid of pilots might be preserved, and he suggested that an international rule might be adopted, in accordance with which a through passage by seaways from one part of the world to another might be left for those not engaged in belligerent operations. He did not desire that the combination which he advocated should be in the nature of an alliance—all he desired was a combination of the Maritime States to preserve the freedom and security of that commerce to which, in a great degree, they were indebted for their existence and their power.
Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to invite the co-operation of' the Governments of the Maritime States, her allies, in maintaining the security of commerce in the Mediterranean and in the seaways loading thereto."—(The Lord Waveney.)
§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYpointed out that no instance of piracy had been mentioned by the noble Lord except the one to which he had called attention on a previous evening. He thought the noble Lord ought to have been satisfied with the answer he then received from the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs; and that some consideration might be shown to Ministers in regard to putting the same Questions twice over. As the noble Lord did not come from the other side of St. George's Channel, there was no 357 excuse for calling the Danube a seaway. With regard to piracy, and what the noble Lord called the wandering pirates of the Mediterranean, they did not in reality exist—the case to which the noble Lord called attention on Monday was not piracy, but simple brigandage. The noble Lord had referred to the Greek War of Independence, but at that time there were no steamers, and at the time of the Crimean War there was no piracy to speak of, though the Greek Government then acted in opposition to the French and English allied forces, invaded Thessaly, and let loose all the bad characters from the gaols. The question, also, of the Suez Canal had been the subject of recent consideration by the House, and he could not see what good could be done by again referring to it. At present, in fact, he could see no reason for any of the evils the noble Lord anticipated. He seemed to have caught a nightmare from a recent perusal of Robinson Crusoe, in which he had seen more Sallee rovers and Algerine corsairs than ever issued from those ports.
LORD DUNSANYthought it would be very undignified of this country to ask the other Maritime Powers to assist them in doing that which they could do for themselves. A few ships of the British Navy would give a summary account of any pirates who might attempt to prey on British commerce. The noble Lord, moreover, had omitted to indicate who were the Maritime Powers whose aid it was desirable to invoke. They might depend upon it that other countries, if they saw their interest was involved, would soon take means to put down pirates, without waiting for an appeal from us. The events of the Greek War of Independence, 50 years ago, were quite beside the question of the present day. It was inconceivable that piracy should exist in the Mediterranean in the presence of a few fast steamers on its coasts; and co-operation of the kind suggested might be calculated rather to hamper than assist in its suppression.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYYour Lordships will probably desire that I should answer the Questions suggested by the Motion of the noble Lord (Lord Waveney), and in doing so perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words by way of comment on the course which the noble Lord has adopted. I do not 358 make it a subject of complaint that the Notice given by the noble Lord is of the most vague and general character; but I do make this observation—that there is absolutely nothing in that Notice which could inform anybody of what are the particular matters affecting the security of commerce to which it was the noble Lord's intention to call attention. I am sure your Lordships will understand me, and will not think I am putting unnecessary difficulties in the way of discussion, if I say that when questions are raised as to what constitutes contraband of war, or as to what particular regulations have been issued by the Turkish authorities with regard to operations on the Danube—when questions of that kind are raised, and answers to them are pressed for, it is not unreasonable that a person in my position should expect to know beforehand what the precise points are to which attention is intended to be directed; because such questions may involve very difficult points of International Law, on which a Minister of the Crown must speak with the appearance of authority; and therefore I cannot think that anyone holding the office which I hold should be called upon to give an opinion which would go forth as the opinion of the British Government, unless he has previously had time for consideration, and for eliciting the advice of those who are specially conversant with those matters. With regard to the other questions raised, I have less difficulty in answering the noble Lord. He first expressed great apprehension that this war would not be localized. He thought it would spread to an unexampled extent. I shall not indulge in any predictions, but I do not think the noble Lord gave any reason for the apprehension he expressed.
§ LORD WAVENEYwished to explain that what he had said, or intended to say, was that he feared the war would be of wide extent, though he hoped it would not be of unexampled duration. That it was of wide extent he illustrated by saying that its effects might be felt from the North Cape to Aden—and he feared that in its consequences it might spread over the Mediterranean.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYI understood the noble Lord to say that it extended or would extend from the North Cape to Aden; but I cannot think that the people at the North Cape or those at Aden can 359 apprehend that they are in much danger. Again, the noble Lord fears that with the outbreak of this war there will come a repetition of those piratical proceedings which occurred to so large an extent in the war of Greek Independence. I should doubt whether that will be the case, and I will say why. In the first place, the whole condition of things is changed by the introduction of steam —which alone makes an immense difference. The noble Lord then spoke of the difficulty our iron-plated ships would have in passing piratical vessels. Of course our iron-clads were not made for the purpose of chasing pirates. But here I must observe that I do not think that a disadvantage arises to the Mercantile Marine from the use of steam. No sailing vessel will be in the long run a match for a steamer, so far as speed is concerned; and I do not apprehend that pirates will fit out steamers. Again, in the neighbourhood of those islands to which the noble Lord referred the state of society along the coasts is altogether changed from what it was formerly. In fact, the present conditions are entirely different from those which existed at the time of the Greek War of Independence. At all events, as far as matters have gone up to the present time—I can state this as a matter of fact—no single complaint has reached me from people in the Greek waters in reference to any renewed outbreak of piracy there, either actual or expected. The only case that has come to the knowledge of the Foreign Office was the one mentioned a week ago by the noble Lord himself; and the result was not very encouraging to the persons who set up in that line, because the affair ended in the whole of the party being captured. I may notice, too, in passing, that that case was not one of piracy in the usual sense of the word. It was not an attack made on a vessel at sea, but a descent on an unprotected village. We have a certain number of gunboats and other small and fast vessels which are competent for the protection of commerce, and the number can always be increased if necessary. And we are not alone in the world. France, Italy, and Germany have powerful Navies; and I have not the slightest doubt that there would be an entire willingness to co-operate with us, and that in such a case no feeling of inter- 360 national rivalry or jealousy would be allowed to exist. I am not quite sure as to what the noble Lord said about some new arrangement or combination for the protection of commerce. I failed to make out clearly whether the noble Lord suggests that the Maritime Powers should combine to introduce new regulations, or combine together for the more stringent enforcement of the international obligations which now exist. If the latter be the suggestion, then I do not think there is on that point much difference between the noble Lord and myself. If there were anything which we considered an invasion of the rights of Neutral Powers we should undoubtedly, and as a matter of course, communicate with the other Neutral Powers, and we should be ready and willing to concur with them in a common line of action. I am not, however, aware that, under the existing rules of International Law, there is any want of due provision against interference with the interests of commerce. At any rate, it is better, I think, to wait until some real case arises. With regard to the question of the Suez Canal, I am sure the noble Lord will excuse me for saying that it is too grave and too delicate a one to be dealt with in an off-hand manner. I have already stated here, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated in "another place," that we are watching that question earnestly and anxiously with the view, should the case arise, of taking such steps as may be necessary for the protection of British commerce. I do not, for my own part, I confess, apprehend the danger and difficulty on that point which many persons seem to think may arise. I am quite sure it is not the wish nor the interest of either of the Powers now belligerents to bring upon itself the hostility of neutral nations by an interference with neutral trade which would be absolutely wanton and unnecessary, and could serve no useful purpose in the operations of war. I think the noble Lord will anticipate the answer I have to give as to his Motion. Indeed, I presume he put that Motion on the Paper rather with the view of introducing a discussion than of pressing it on your Lordships. We are quite ready to ask the co-operation of all the Maritime Powers to extend the security to commerce whenever we see or whenever it is shown that there is a necessity 361 for such an extension; but I do not think it would be of any use to invite their cooperation unless we had had some specific proposal to bring before them. In any case it is not necessary to address the Crown to direct us to do that which we are perfectly willing to do without any Address such as that proposed by the noble Lord.
§ LORD WAVENEYbegged to express his satisfaction with the answer of the noble Earl generally, but more especially with that part of it having reference to the Suez Canal. He would withdraw his Motion.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.