Lords Sitting of 23 March 1877

MINUTES.
— Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Sheffield, after the death of his Father.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Intemperance, The Earl of Dudley, added; Conservancy Boards, &c., appointed.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Supreme Court of Judicature (34).
Second Reading — Open Spaces (Metropolis) (24).
Royal Assent — Exchequer Bills and Bonds (£700,000) [40 Vict. c. 5]; Publicans Certificates (Scotland) [40 Vict. c. 3]; Beer Licences (Ireland) [40 Vict. c. 4].

PRIVATE BILLS—THE EASTER RECESS.
  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Ordered that Standing Orders Nos. 91. and 92. be suspended; and that the time for depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private Bills, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Easter, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the recess.
PARLIAMENT—THE EASTER RECESS. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that as there were some Bills coming up from the other House, which it was necessary should be passed before the Eastor Recess, he would not be able to move the adjournment of their Lordships' House till Tuesday next. He would then propose that their Lordships should adjourn till Friday, the 13th of April. It might be convenient to their Lordships to know that, having consulted with some of his noble Friends, and yielding to their request, he had resolved not to ask their Lordships to take the second reading of the Burials Bill till Friday, the 20th of April.
CONSERVANCY BOARDS, &c.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON,on rising to move for a Select Committee—
  "To inquire into the operation of existing statutes in regard to the formation of and proceedings by Commissioners of Sewers and Conservancy Drainage and River Navigation Boards; to consider by what means such bodies may be more conveniently and inexpensively constituted, their procedure improved, and their
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  powers enlarged, so as to provide more efficiently for storage of water, the prevention of floods, and the discharge of other functions appertaining to such Boards,"
  said, their Lordships had all more or less reason to know the state in which the country had been during the past autumn and winter in consequence of the great prevalence of floods in many parts of the country, and therefore they would not be surprised that the Government had taken up the question. The first proposal for dealing with the subject originated in a Notice of Motion that was given in the other House of Parliament from an independent Member; but the terms of that Motion were much more limited than the terms of the reference which he (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) would have the honour of submitting to their Lordships. Her Majesty's Government thought it desirable that the terms of the proposal should be extended and enlarged, because while a measure for preventing the Pollution of Rivers passed last year, several clauses of that Act as it was originally presented, dealing with the constitution of Conservancy Boards, were struck out, it being thought better that the matters to which they related should be dealt with in a future Session and in another manner. The Government proposed, therefore, that those matters should come within the Reference to the Committee for which he was about to move. The constitution of Commissioners of Sewers and of Conservancy and Irrigation Boards was regulated by various Acts going as far back as the reign of Henry VIII.; but the first attempt made to grapple with the subject in any large manner was by an Act passed in the 24th and 25th years of the reign of Her Majesty the Queen. The floods which had occurred in several parts of this country, and more especially in the valley of the Thames, seemed to have re-appeared at various intervals—in 1821, 1852, 1875, and 1877 for instance—and their recurrence showed that while the powers vested in Commissioners of Sewers and in Conservancy Boards might be useful, and perhaps sufficient, for ordinary purposes, they certainly were not adequate to grapple with the difficulties that arose under extraordinary circumstances. The Conservators of the Thames had pointed out as much. In their Report presented to the Board of

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  Trade, February 16, 1877, the Conservators of the River Thames stated that—
  "In all ordinary floods the improvements made at various places and the stringent regulations as to opening the tackle at the weirs … leave no just ground for complaint."
  But they added—
  "The capacity of the river being insufficient to carry off excessive floods caused by an enormous quantity of rain falling in a comparatively short time, the water must necessarily spread over the low-lying riparian districts."
  After dwelling on the long intervals at which extraordinary floods recurred, with the exception of the present and last year, and the great expense which would be entailed by the construction of "impounding reservoirs" or any like scheme, they went on to say—
  "If excessive floods are to be dealt with, a searching preliminary inquiry should be instituted, for it is manifest that large powers and ample funds only to be obtained by an Act of Parliament, must be provided if all the low-lying lands in the Thames Valley are to be secured against every possible inundation."
  This appeared to him a matter very well worth the attention of a Select Committee; and it seemed natural that, at the same time that the prevention of floods was under consideration, attention should be called to the storage of water for drinking and other purposes. Much valuable evidence upon this subject would be found in the Report of the Pollution of Rivers Commission, which was made in 1874. In the final conclusions and recommendations of that Commission it was stated that—
  "The supply of villages and hamlets with wholesome water is often a problem of great difficulty, since the number of inhabitants is too small to permit of the execution of expensive works for such an object. We therefore recommend that in any scheme for the utilization for town supply of the pure water of a river basin the wants of all neighbouring villages and hamlets should be provided for as far as practicable; and we further recommend that the owners of land should be permitted to include the cost of village water-supply among those expenditures on land improvements which they are now enabled with the sanction of your Majesty's Inclosure Commissioners to charge upon their estates."
  There was another subject which deserved attention—namely, the functions of the Navigation Boards now in existence. Those Boards had been incorporated from time to time in various
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  Acts of Parliament dealing with the navigation of inland rivers and canals; but, in consequence of the construction of railways, navigation on the canals and rivers in charge of those Boards had, in many cases, lost their raison d'être. In reference to the Wye and another river there were no fewer than four Acts of Parliament; but during the last 20 years not a single Commissioner had been appointed, or any other authority, to see to the enforcement of the provisions of those Acts in the interests of the Public. He thought their Lordships would agree with the Government that all the matters which he had briefly indicated were well worthy of reference to the Select Committee.
  Moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the operation of existing statutes in regard to the formation of and proceedings by Commissioners of Sewers, and Conservancy, Drainage, and River Navigation Boards:
  To consider by what means such bodies may be more conveniently and inexpensively constituted, their procedure improved, and their powers enlarged so as to provide more efficiently for storage of water, the prevention of floods, and the discharge of other functions appertaining to such Boards.—(The Lord President.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he entirely agreed with the noble Duke as to the importance of the subject. He had no doubt that the greater prevalence of floods in recent times was in part attributable to the improvement in surface drainage, which caused so much more water to rapidly reach the rivers. Again, it was often said that navigation and drainage were to a certain extent opposed to each other, and it might be highly desirable to give greater facilities for the abandonment of navigation in cases where, owing to railways, the latter had become useless, or where it seriously interfered with drainage. He approved the proposition of appointing the Select Committee, but would strongly impress on his noble Friend the Lord President to have the Committee nominated without delay, in order that it might be able to report in time to have legislation for the prevention of floods before the close of the present Session if possible.
  EARL FORTESCUEjoined in the request made by the noble Marquess that no time might be lost in nominating the Committee, in order that it might

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  commence its labours as soon as possible.
  Motion agreed to.
  And, on April 23, the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  Ld. President.

  L. Munson.

  D. Bedford.

  L. Vernon.

  D. Northumberland.

  L. Stewart of Garlies.

  M. Salisbury.

  L. Meldrum.

  M. Ripon.

  L. Ker.

  E. Sandwich.

  L. Penrhyn.

  E. Cowper.

  L. Somerton.

  E. Stanhope.

  L. Winmarleigh.

OPEN SPACES (METROPOLIS) BILL.
(The Duke of Westminster.)
OPEN SPACES (METROPOLIS) BILL.

  (No. 24.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE DUKE OF WESTMINSTER, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it had come up from the Commons and was unopposed. Its object was to enable the Board of Works to acquire by agreement with owners, and to undertake the management of all open spaces within their area of which they might obtain possession.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he did not object to the second reading, but referred to some parts of the Bill which he said would require careful consideration on the part of the Government.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was much indebted to the noble Duke for having drawn attention to the matter. He thought the object of the Bill was very good. In that he believed they all agreed; but whether that object was carried out in the best manner was, of course, an important point. He would undertake that the Bill should receive the consideration of the Government before their Lordships went into Committee on it, which would not be till after Easter, and that if any amendments should seem to be desirable they should be proposed.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, that as the Bill stood a person who had an open space might transfer it to the Metropolitan Board of Works without notice to third parties whose property might be injured by the transfer. He thought that notice ought to be required.
  Motion agreed to; Bill road 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  BURIAL GROUNDS.

    MOTION FOR RETURNS.
    EARL DE LA WARRmoved—
    "That there be laid before this House, Return of parishes proper in England and Wales in which or available for which are nonconformist burial grounds, either in public cemeteries or connected with places of worship; also of parishes proper in which are burial grounds in connection with the Church of England only."
    He moved for these Returns because he thought it desirable to have this information before the Burials Bill came on for second reading.
    THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that at the Home Office there was at present in preparation a Return, moved for on the 15th of June, 1875, which he believed would contain the information wished for by the noble Earl. He hoped, therefore, the noble Earl would not press his Motion.
    Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  ARMY—MILITIA OFFICERS.

    QUESTIONS.
    VISCOUNT BURYasked the Under Secretary for War, Whether he will explain to the House the new Regulations under which junior officers of Militia are to be allowed to enter the Army?
    EARL CADOGANreplied that those Regulations were not at present in a complete form, and therefore he was sorry he was unable to give very complete details in answer to the Question of the noble Lord; but if the noble Lord would be content with a general explanation he would be happy to give it. The present system of giving subalterns of the Militia commissions in the Army on the nomination of Commanding Officers of Militia regiments would be discontinued. Subalterns of Militia who wished to obtain commissions in the Army must undergo a competitive examination in military subjects. The times and place of examination would be duly stated. The number of commissions set aside for Militia subalterns would be annually made known. The applications of subalterns to compete must be submitted to their Commanding Officers and forwarded through the usual channels. They must produce certificates that they were duly qualified as to age, and that they had attended two

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    trainings, and they must have passed a Civil Service or test examination or produce a University certificate. He might add that it was not proposed that this scheme should take effect till the 1st of January, 1879. There were a certain number of officers who looked to obtaining these commissions, and that would give them an opportunity of preparing and of attending the required two regimental trainings. The scheme now in practice was framed by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cardwell), with the desirable object of enabling young men who wished to enter the Army, but who did not possess the requisite literary knowledge, to obtain commissions. It had, however, been found to give rise to some difficulties, and was in some respects open to serious objections. It was in order to obviate these the change was proposed. No doubt the present system gave the Commanding Officers of Militia regiments a certain amount of patronage; but he was informed that they were not unwilling to be relieved of it. At present the largest Militia regiments got the largest number of subalterns into the Army; but it was expected that under the new system the best regulated regiments—those who produced the most efficient subalterns—would be the most successful.
    VISCOUNT CARDWELLsaid, he was much obliged to his noble Friend the Under Secretary for War for his very clear explanation of the measure. His object in framing the system now in existence was to prevent the selection of officers for the Army from being narrowed within too limited a class, and he thought that effective service in the Militia would be a good qualification for young military officers. The system had had another good effect. Before it was adopted the junior ranks of the Militia were but scantily filled in most cases; but when it was found that service in the Militia gave a title to the Army the deficiency was immediately removed. He did not insist that the particular mode in which he had designed to accomplish the object in view was the best. On the contrary, he thought what the noble Earl suggested would effect a considerable improvement, and no one would welcome it more cordially than he would.
    VISCOUNT BURYasked whether the competition would be between the officers
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    of the same regiment, or whether there was to be one general examination at some central place?
    EARL CADOGANreplied that the examination would not be confined to each regiment separately, but would be open to all Militia officers; and the examination would be held at a central place.

  METROPOLIS — HYDE PARK CORNER.

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    EARL FORTESCUEasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether, pending the larger remedial measures which it has been announced are again to be deferred for another year, the First Commissioner of Works intends adopting any temporary expedients to diminish somewhat during the present Session the highly inconvenient block of vehicles at Hyde Park Corner? He repeated that the plan he had suggested, when he brought the matter before their Lordships on a previous occasion, and which would make room for an additional line of vehicles, would not be very expensive.
    THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, the circumstances of this case had in no manner changed since his noble Friend at the head of the Government replied to the same Question when put to him by the noble Earl about a month ago. He could only repeat what his noble Friend said on that occasion. A large measure for dealing with the traffic at Hyde Park Corner could not be undertaken this year; and, in the meantime, it was not thought advisable to incur the large expense which a temporary and incomplete one would inevitably involve.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) ACT—THE EDUCATION BOARD.

    QUESTION.
    THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether the Government has decided to continue the Board of Education for Scotland?
    THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONreplied that the subject was an important one. It had been under the consideration of the Government, but no decision had been come to on it as yet.
    House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Twelve o'clock.