Lords Sitting of 11 June 1877

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Third Reading—Law of Evidence Amendment (63); Marriages Legalisation, Saint Peter's, Almondsbury (85), and passed.
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (£5,900,000) [40 Vict. c. 12]; Customs, Inland Revenue, and Savings Banks [40 Vict. c. 13].

CENTRAL ASIA—APPOINTMENT OF A CONSUL.—MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
LORD DE MAULEY,in moving an humble Address to Her Majesty for the appointment of a Consul to reside in some town in Central Asia, for the purpose of watching over the commercial and territorial interests of British India, said, he was aware that subjects so remote in their consequences as those to which he was about to call their Lordships' attention might hardly attract so much attention as a Turnpike Bill; but unless the evils complained of were dealt with, they might lead to war, or to difficult negotiation. He remembered Lord Palmerston inveighing to an indifferent audience against the provisions of the Ashburton Treaty. Every evil which that noble Lord's foresight predicted had been since verified, and from the supineness of the public and the ignorance of those engaged our Canadian frontier was unprotected. Of ten-fold more importance to us than our Canadian frontier were the events occurring on the frontiers of India. The progress of the Russians had been slow, silent, and certain. They had been fortifying their positions—seizing places of strategic importance—moving cautiously towards our frontier. If he wished for a confirmation of those reports, he would point to a very remarkable book lately published, The Ride to Khiva, by Colonel Burnaby, which showed that while every
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obstacle, natural or artificial, thrown in his way was surmounted by his courage, and every artifice to deceive him was detected by his sagacity; yet he proved the stealthy creep of Russia, and that the feeling was general that a conflict between the two Empires was impending. India was the prize. It was a remarkable fact that the policy of Russia never changed. Peter the Great wished to annex to his dominions a portion of Central Asia. For some reason that policy had been in abeyance for 100 years, when the schemes of his ancestor were adopted by the Emperor Nicholas, who conquered a great part of Armenia, converted the Caspian Sea into a Russian lake, and Astrabad into a Russian fortress. He moved the frontiers of his kingdom from Orenburg to the South of the Caspian — territories larger than France, Spain, and Portugal put together. They might have fancied that acquisitions so vast would have satisfied any man. Not a bit of it. The present Emperor had conquered Turkestan, Khokand, and Khiva; he had united, or was about to unite, the Caspian to the Sea of Aral by a railroad. It only remained to cover the 120 leagues from Astrabad to Herat with rails to bring Russian power to the farthest limits of Persia. On the other side, by improving the navigation of the Oxus, the Russians might be within a fortnight's march of India. We were told that the Emperor was occupied with the social reforms of his kingdom, and that he believed that the present war was only a crusade in favour of religion and humanity. Doubly dangerous must it be to us that a man influenced by such high motives should be unable to forego that instinct of his race for Southern adventure. What was being done could not have been undertaken for the sake of commerce—for commerce with nations whose simple wants were self-satisfied was a delusion: it could not be that the great military Power of Russia feared the desultory attacks of disorganized barbarians. There was only one way to read it—a move towards India. It was a well-known fact that one of the objects of the invasion of Russia by Napoleon Bonaparte was to induce the Czar of that day to join with him in an attack upon India. We had been spared that danger. A man might well have hesitated before he launched his

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armies into the then unknown regions of Asia—regions which now formed part and parcel of Russia; but the line which the genius of the French Emperor suggested had been adopted on the South of the Caspian—and what would our position be in the event of war? We should be as helpless to defend our possessions in India as Russia was hers in the Crimea. The Caspian a Russian lake, Astrabad a centre for supplies, Herat a Russian town, the Oxus a military stream, a network of railways converging towards the same point. Before we could move an army, hordes of Cossacks would swarm like locusts over our frontier to feed and fatten upon the resources of India. Natural barriers between the two countries had been removed, whole nations had been absorbed into the vortex of Russian power. There were many persons who argued that the interests of civilization were best served by nations sweeping from their path these relics of barbarism—themselves reposing on the opposite sides of some real or imaginary line of demarcation, and living upon terms of amity and of mutual forbearance. If the argument were an European one he should admit its validity. Where the lines of countries were selected with care and guarded with jealousy such an arrangement might be good; but our Empire in India bad known no limits, and Russian territory acknowledged no boundary. The two Powers would soon, like the monarchs of old, look each other in the face. It required no spirit of prophecy to foretell the result. Neither did they fight with the same weapons. Our rule in India had been often aggressive, sometimes cruel, but always open; the blow had followed the threat—time and opportunity had been given for acquiescence in our demands. Not so with Russia—undermining the loyalty of nations by intrigue, overcoming them with violence, and then, with a wisdom worthy of the Romans, she incorporated them into her system and made her former foes the ministers of future aggression. He looked upon these wild tribes of Asia as the safeguard of India. If unmolested, they remained our friends; if useless as allies, they formed an outwork to the defences of India. He preferred the human buffer to mitigate or to parry attack; the blow would fall powerless if urged through the existing medium of
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these wild and inhospitable nations. In the hope of delaying, if not of averting, misfortune, he had given Notice of the Resolution he now moved.
Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to allow the appointment of a Consul to some town in Central Asia which may be selected as most convenient for him, to watch over the commercial and territorial interests of British India."—( The Lord De Manley.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The noble Lord (Lord De Mauley) will forgive me if I say that his Notice hardly prepared me for his references to Napoleon the First, the Czar Peter, the pertinacity of Russian policy, and the general rapacity of the Russian nation. The matters over which the noble Lord travelled appear to me to be of rather too grave a character to be discussed on a Motion such as he moved, if they were to be discussed with that calmness and in that dispassionate spirit which usually characterize debates in your Lordships' House. The noble Lord says that since the days of Peter the Great Russia has never changed her intention—which is to drive England out of India. But I do not think the accusation which the noble Lord makes against Russia is entirely borne out. The policy which he imputes to her could hardly have been initiated by Peter the Great, because he died in 1725, and the Empire of British India was not established till 1757. I think, therefore, we must exculpate the Russian Government from that accusation at least. Then the noble Lord gave an alarming description of the progress of Russia in Central Asia. He represented how a railway was about to be constructed from the Caspian Sea to the Sea of Aral, and that this would considerably facilitate the Russian advance on Merv and Herat. But the noble Lord appears to have left out of his calculation that there are deserts to be traversed, and that perhaps a fortnight or three weeks, but certainly not less than 10 days across these deserts, would be required for the journey between the nearest accessible points of the two territories. I can assure the noble Lord that any danger of a Russian inroad on the frontier of British India is not quite so far advanced as he seems to imagine. The nearest point on the Caspian at which supplies could be gathered by Russia, is over a

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thousand miles from our Indian frontier. The consideration of the danger to which the noble Lord refers may possibly interest a future generation of statesmen, but that calamity is not of such imminence as to render necessary the Motion by which the noble Lord seeks to avert it. I will not dwell longer on the geographical circumstances, except to protest against the statement of the noble Lord that the Empire of British India knows no bounds. My Lords, the bounds of that Empire are very minutely marked out, especially on the North-Western side. Whatever the Empire of Russia may be, there is no doubt whatever as to what the frontier of British India is. It is perfectly well known. I cannot help thinking that in discussions of this kind, a great deal of misapprehension arises from the popular use of maps on a small scale. As with such maps you are able to put a thumb on India and a linger on Russia, some persons at once think that the political situation is alarming and that India must be looked to. If the noble Lord would use a larger map—say one on the scale of the Ordnance Map of England—he would find that the distance between Russia and British India is not to be measured by the finger and thumb, but by a rule. There are between them deserts and mountainous chains measured by thousands of miles, and these are serious obstacles to any advance by Russia, however well planned such an advance might be. The noble Lord wishes that a Consul should be appointed in Central Asia to watch over the commercial and territorial interests of British India. Now, I think it will appear to your Lordships that those interests ought to be watched over in British India, and not in Central Asia. They ought to be watched over, not by a Consul, but by the Viceroy of India, who uniformly resides in India, and not in Central Asia. The subject is of great importance, and the object the noble Lord has in view is undoubtedly beneficial. The appointment of Consuls in Central Asia is very useful, not for the purpose of keeping Russia in check, but for the progress of commerce. We are always anxious to place Consuls at places in which there is bonâ fide trade with Great Britain; but two conditions of such appointments must be steadily borne in mind. In the first place, it is necessary to have the hearty consent of
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the Ruler of the country, or the appointment will be of no use. In the second place, the country must be so far civilized as that we shall not expose ourselves to the inconvenience of being called on to undertake an expedition such as that to Abyssinia, where the sufferings of a British Consul cost the British taxpayers £9,000,000. I may mention, however, that recently a Treaty was concluded with the Ruler of Kashgar, which gives him the right to ask for a Resident. He has expressed his willingness to avail himself of that right, and Mr. Shaw has been appointed Resident. How long that arrangement may be continued will, of course, depend on the state of that country. Her Majesty's Government are not in the least blind to the advantage of such arrangements, and that they will adopt them whenever they are not likely to lead this country into perilous and costly complications. Though I do not think we shall be stimulated in our policy by the Motion of the noble Lord, I trust he will be satisfied with what I have said in answer to his proposal.
Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

CRIMINAL LAW—HIGHWAY ROBBERIES ON BLACKHEATH.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRUROasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they have had their attention called to a recent highway robbery on Blackheath? In asking the Question, he felt bound to say that the district in question had been until recently perfectly free from serious outrage; though he had been in the habit of passing over the Heath at all hours of the night and day during the last 10 years, he had never met a disreputable character on it, except during holiday times; neither could he call to mind that he had ever met a policeman on Black-heath. But he resided in the neighbourhood, and his premises had been robbed four or five times. He thought there was a want of additional supervision in the outlying parts of the Metropolitan Police District. The inspectors of that force were intelligent and highly respectable men, and nothing could be said against them; but, as the value of property had so much increased in the Metropolitan Police Districts, he thought

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  that a superior class of men ought to be employed as Inspectors. He begged to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether any; and if so, what steps have been taken to protect the district from a recurrence of such outrages as those recently reported?
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that in the case of the outrage referred to by the noble Lord, some delay took place before it was made known to the police, and then the description of the offenders was so vague as to afford little clue to their identity. The outrages of which information had been received were these—on the 28th ult., the carriage of Mr. Hodgson was stopped, and that gentleman compelled to give up his purse by two men of small stature and well-dressed. On the 4th instant two men in dark clothes attempted to stop Mrs. Potter's carriage; but the coachman drove the horses on. Two or three days afterwards two men answering the same description called on the coachman of Colonel Rich to stop; but the coachman declining to do so, they ran by the side of the carriage for a short distance and then went away. No immediate alarm was given to the police in any one of the three cases, though, had it been, there was every probability that the highwaymen would have been apprehended after the attack on Mr. Hodgson and there was a moral certainty that they would have been after the attack on Colonel Rich. A description given considerably after the occurrence, and stating that the highwaymen were "young, well-dressed, and appeared to have received a good education" was of much of a clue to the police. The police force had been much strengthened on the Heath and the approaches to it; but he thought their Lordships would concur with him that it would not be well to go into particulars as to the measures which had been adopted. He would, therefore, merely add that measures such as those referred to by the noble Lord had already been taken.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, that if the noble Lord (Lord Truro) let it be known that when he went out he carried a revolver he would not have much to fear from the Blackheath highwaymen.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.